RayC

6 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

It might need to be the third time, who knows?

... or a fourth or fifth .....

A thought occurs. See what you think. Is it at all possible that there might not be any way to implement Brexit correctly and reap all the benefits because ... well .... Brexit was a bad idea and those benefits don't actually exist? 

Maybe you can put my mind at rest by explaining what the government should do to make Brexit a success? Thanks. 

7 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Those of us who are not biased and prejudiced look elsewhere for information regarding the causes of this conflict and the real situation on the battlefield.

This amounts to saying no more than saying, "My information is better than yours" which, in absence of proof, is in itself a demonstration of bias and prejudice.

7 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

Anything that shows even remotely that Russia might be justified or that Russia might be gaining the upper hand is immediately labelled as propaganda or being an apologist and even being labelled as a communist by some less educated.

Putin's raison d'être for the 'Special Military Operation' is to 1)  cleanse Ukraine of its' Nazis 2) demilitarise Ukraine.

Although Nazis are small in numbers, unfortunately they (probably) exist in every country. Should we therefore accept this as a justification for an invasion?

In a similar vein, whilst Russia might have reasons to be concerned about any increase in Ukraine's military capabilities, does this give her the right to invade and demilitarise her neighbour?

The correct answer to both questions is 'No'. It really is as simple as that irrespective of where you source your data.

38 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

The first time, yes.

Where is the evidence to suggest that it will be any different next time?

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

Facts? Two Jags' egg was delivered by a farmer, who was not described as a right-winger, except by you, of course.

You're right. It is not a fact.

Craig Evans, an agricultural worker, was part of a demonstration protesting against Labour's rural policies organised by the Countryside Alliance - an association with conservative views - when he threw an egg at the Labour MP, John Prescott.

Question: Based on this information, in your opinion do you think it most likely that Mr. Evans was, at that time, a) apolitical b) a Labour supporter c) a centralist {Note: the LibDems agreed with many of Labour's rural policies} d) a Conservative supporter.

38 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Brexit has been handled badly, so all benefits to the country may still yet be realised. 

 

Rome wasn't built in a day, let's face it.

Rome may not have been built in a day but I'd hazard a guess that - unlike  Brexiter politicians - the Roman Consuls and Senate had an idea of what they were trying to do and how to achieve it.

The much touted FTAs with the US and China are no closer to fruition than they were in 2015. Any FTA with India will, most likely, be no better than the one which the EU will agree and, quite possibly, be worse.

Patience is a virtue but is an indication that there might be something worth waiting for too much to ask?

6 hours ago, Purdey said:

I learned that during the Crusades christians massacred Muslims in the middle east. I don't think there is any religion that doesn't have blood on its hands.

Never heard of a war where Atheists were the cause (Stalin and Hitler were Christians).

I agree with your sentiments.

Interesting article about Hitler's "faith".

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/hitlers-religion-was-hitler-an-atheist-christian-or-something-else/

I'm not sure why Russia feels the need to spread false information to discredit the IOC. There are enough facts currently available to complete that particular task.

3 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

But the election is 6 weeks away.😃

 

Not 2033.

 

Let's see how the EU and UK is doing in 2033 and see if people still want a referendum then. As of now, there's no appetite for it as my link showed.

You're right. The survey clearly suggests that there is no appetite for another EU referendum now.

However, the same survey also clearly shows that the overwhelming majority of people think that Brexit has been handled badly, has been of no benefit to the country, was a mistake and would vote to rejoin the EU if there were a referendum.

6 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

If by failure, you mean outperforming France and Germany.

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/01/26/even-lacklustre-britain-outperforming-failing-europe/

 

The EU is failing. We got out at the right time. History will be very kind to Brexit. 

 

The Scots should be thanking Westminster. 

 

 

 

The article also states that many other EU states e.g. Greece, Ireland, Spain are are outperforming the UK so what would you conclude from that?

The article says little about France, other than it is experiencing social unrest. How can you draw any conclusions about the EU from that? 

The article concentrates on Germany and suggests that it's current relative economic underperformance is due to a) the structure of the German economy b) fiscal policy and c) monetary policy.

Industrial and fiscal policy are clearly the direct responsibility of the German government and not Brussels. While monetary policy is dictated by the ECB, the UK was not part of the Eurozone when we were members of the EU, so in that regard how has leaving benefitted us?

Given the above, where is the justification for your implication that the UK has benefitted economically from leaving the EU? In what ways has the UK not being part of the EU Single Market or Customs Union improved the UK's economic performance?

I have posted numerous links to various reports on numerous occasions suggesting that the opposite is true i.e. that being outside the Single Market and Customs Union has been detrimental to the UK economy. This Telegraph article is an interesting opinion piece but does not support your contention that the UK is economically better off outside of the EU.

16 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

You will have to wait until they are elected before you see how loony left the Labour Party still are.

 

Starmer is trying to present them as electable.

I've no idea how you can suggest that a Starmer led government will be of the 'loony left' from what they currently said

https://labour.org.uk/updates/stories/10-labour-policies-to-change-brita

in/

16 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Abbott is a massive liability and I hope she gets as much coverage as possible. 

A liability in places but some of the electorate seems to like her.

16 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Her toxicity and bitterness oozes from every pore. Fortunately she is unable to keep her mouth shut so we are able to witness it in all it's glory. 

Suella Braverman

16 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 I guess parenting skills do not rank high on  "liberals" priorities as they climb the greasy pole to power on the back of fake virtuosity and lies. 

A sad and pathetic comment

I don''t support many of Abbott's causes and think that she is too gaff-prone to be an effective frontline politician. However, I do think that she has a point about Starmer 'culling' the Labour Party of left-wingers.

Since his election as leader, Starmer has  tried to remake the party in his image. It leaves me with the impression that  "broad church" only extends to worshipping in the 'Temple of Keir"

18 hours ago, Gweiloman said:

I believe if there’s a nuclear war in Europe/US, Asia would still be quite safe, unless China gets involved. It could be a global reset, with China taking over the reins and finally bringing peace and prosperity to those parts of the world that survives.

 

Might not be a bad thing, from humanities viewpoint.

In the words of Mr. McEnroe: "You cannot be serious?"

Mass destruction and loss of life affecting +/-10% of the world's population. Huge economic, environmental and societal damage which would take decades to repair (assuming that repair might even be possible).

Yep, there's a lot to recommend nuclear war from a "humanities viewpoint".

2 hours ago, Smokey and the Bandit said:

Wouldn't it be better to wait for the investigation, to see what actually transpired, before jumping to conclusions?

Surely you need to hear from both sides?

Hopefully, the investigation will get to the bottom of things. However, American Airlines have commented and - at the risk of pre-judging matters - imo the absence of a "We vigorously deny all allegations of racial discrimination, etc ..." speaks volumes.

3 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Perhaps we should wait till all the facts are known. Does Jesse Smollett ring a bell?

Jusse Smollett? Are you suggesting that these men somehow staged this?

12 minutes ago, ChicagoExpat said:

First of all, don't take comments made in a forum like this as serious policy proposals.  That said, Israel owes these "traditional allies" nothing; clearly they weren't worried about alienating Israel when they did this.  My point is, turnabout is fair play and Spain in particular is in no place to be trying to force an issue.

I am fully aware that this is a discussion forum as opposed to a legislative chamber. However, one reason for these discussion forums is to discuss policy (alternatives).

I did not say that Israel 'owed' allies anything. I was pointing out that at a time when Israel needs all the support that it can get - imo Israel needs the EU more than the EU needs Israel -  getting involved in a diplomatic tit-for-tat would not be the best course of action.

7 hours ago, ChicagoExpat said:

Sure -- it would be a useless gesture designed to get under the skin of the other country.  Help anyone other than a feel-good gesture for one side (just like the other gesture)?  Likely not.

So a retaliatory "useless" gesture, which offers little, if any, practical benefit to Israel but which would potentially alienate traditional allies.

A rational decision would be to be avoid doing so but rationality seems to be a dwindling resource in this conflict.

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

 

Well, that's what I was getting at in my own sarcastic way. Labour fans always draw the line at exactly 14 years ago but Blarism was not at all moderate, in reality, 

Tory supporters can justifiably point to mitigating circumstances - such as having to govern within a coalition for 4 years and having to manage a pandemic - however, 14 years is a long time to be in office and known issues with e.g. the NHS, the environment, social cohesion have certainly not been solved, and imo largely not been addressed in any meaningful way: The Tory party must be considered responsible and accountable for this lack of progress.

I'm not sure what you mean with your reference to "Blairism" and (lack of)  moderation?

1 hour ago, ChicagoExpat said:

I hope Israel recognizes a Catalan or Basque state.  Not quite apples to apples, but also not a bad way for payback.

Far from apples to apples. Payback for what? Can you explain how such a move would help any party (Israel, Palestine, Spain, Catalan or Basque separatists, the EU)?

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

As for rejoining the EU, just like Scottish Independence that ship has sailed. 

For once I agree with you. Those ships are currently at sea. However, I imagine that they will return to port for their 'once in a generation' visits sometime in the next decade when, imo the EU vote will have a different outcome. We Eu-philes will just have to grin and bear it until then and hope that we survive that long.

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

53 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

 

Seems unlikely, given that having left we are outpeforming France and Germany who stayed.

 

But feel free to believe your guesswork is more valid than the actual economic results. 

https://obr.uk/forecasts-in-depth/the-economy-forecast/brexit-analysis/#assumptions

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

Not at all. Given we are outperforming Germany and France it seems evident the "sunlit uplands" of the EU were not worth the billions we were ploughing in every year. 

The "sunlit uplands" were promised by you Leavers. If they exist - imo highly unlikely - they must be hidden behind permanent low-cloud.

4 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

Whataboutism at it's finest. 

 

Post Brexit, the UK is outpeforming many large economies, including the EU's powerhouse economies Germany and France.

 

https://ca.style.yahoo.com/news/gdp-uk-overtakes-france-germany-070000252.html

 

Since you raised the issue of lies and corruption though, I haven't heard from Sturgeon much lately...

What's your point?

The very same article states that the UK has underperformed "Italy (2.1%), Canada (3.5%), Japan (3%) and the US (6.1%)".