RayC

Get rid of the welfare state: Can't hide behind it if it's not there. Pensioners have had their day. The sick are nothing but a burden and a waste of resources. Neither group is of any use to anyone. Let nature take its' course. Won't need to train as many medical professionals. They can be re-employed burning the corpses immediately to avoid disease spreading to the deserving. Why complicate matters, eh? Simples. Unfortunately, I imagine that there are those who think that this is a sound proposal.

Congratulations. You reached a new low.

I find it strange how easily you - and most Brexiters - dismiss the negative economic consequences of Brexit and the fact that many in the UK are made poorer as a result of it. You are saying (I assume) that Brexit was won because of the sovereignty issue. To repeat, I think that it is a red herring and those who believed the 'taking back control' mantra were sold a pup. But playing devil's advocate and accepting that there is some substance to that argument (which, to be clear, I don't), are you saying that being made progressively poorer is worth it simply because you are ruled from Westminster rather than Brussels? I see that you've thrown in the 'someone else's fault/ Brexit wasn't done right' excuse for good measure without, yet again, adding any detail about how Brexit could have been 'done right'. Wrt migration, you don't spell out what are these "cumulative adverse effects", whether all migrants bring this baggage with them and what should be done about it. Should we therefore send all non-native borne individuals in the UK 'back home'? No doubt there are those posting on this forum who would answer 'Yes' without giving a moment's thought about the effect that losing +/-5 million workers would have on the UK economy, let alone the irony of them living in a country as an immigrant themselves! (I'll pay you a back-handed compliment by stating that I don't think you fall into the category I outline above). Re the 5 million figure: In 2021 there were an estimated 14 million people borne outside the UK living there. Working population is 37% of the total. Quick back of a fag package estimate of the number of non-British borne individuals eligible to work is thus +/-5m).

That's a very large sample. I have no reason to doubt the validity and verificatory of the site. However, I'm afraid that my Dutch hasn't improved enough in the past 14 hours for me to derive any benefit from links🤷😁

Is that conclusion based on data analysis or your recent personal experience of both London and Rwanda?

Your link doesn't offer any figures and my Dutch isn't up to navigating the site. As I said before, maybe the Politico journalist got it wrong? Maybe she said "13%" when she meant to say 30%? In any event, it doesn't change the fact that The Netherlands is currently a long way from voting 'Yes' to leaving the EU.

Can only repeat what I said earlier. Latest episode of Politico's 'EU confidential' podcast states support for 'Nexit' is 13%. Maybe they got it wrong?🤷 https://www.politico.eu/eu-confidential-podcast/ (@+/-5'30")

The only one of us spouting nonsense is you. You are completely unable to offer any evidence to refute the fact that the UK was in agreement with the rest of the EU 97% of the time when it was a member. Likewise, you offer no evidence to counter the findings of the OBR, FT and 'Britain in a Changing Europe' reports ,which show that the UK has suffered economically from leaving the EU: No attempt either is made to address my challenge about what this bright new, post-EU UK will look like or how it will be achieved. Instead and as usual, what you offer nothing more than 'I know what I know'. This seems to be common amongst Brexiters and, perhaps, explains why seven years on, the country is no nearer to finding any solutions to the problems caused by leaving. As for the rise of the populist right. I admit defeat. I can't understand why the Dutch would vote for Wilders: It's not as though they don't know what he is like. Moreover, the Dutch electorate need only have looked at how right-wing populist governments throughout Europe have fractured their respective societies to realise that no good will come of it. Hopefully, the UK will buck the trend next year.

Why would they need to do that? Van Grieken's party wants an independent Flemish state which would not include Brussels. However, your idea might have some merit. Since the pandemic there is an abundance of unused office space throughout Europe. In the interests of cost savings, maybe the unelected cabal of Brussels bureaucrats could share their accommodation with the unelected cabal of UK bureaucrats?

Just to be clear. I do not believe that immigrants to the UK of any nationality are any lazier or more work-shy than the indigenous UK population. I was clumsily trying to make the point that the UK is dependent on immigration to bolster its' workforce, and that leaving the EU has had no effect on this dependency. All that has happened is that we have replaced nationals from the EU states with nationals from further afield. Immigrants have always been and unfortunately it appears, will continue to be a convenient peg on which to hang society's problems.

If Brexit was about the future why do Brexiters find it so difficult to explain what this bright new future looks like and, more importantly, how it will be achieved? I'll answer my own questions: It's because they have no idea what it is. Even if they did, I suspect that they wouldn't have the faintest idea how it might be achieved. It's pointless providing (yet again) a counter-argument to the usual EU federalist, anti-democratic claptrap as, rather like any discussion on sovereignty, any facts (supported by evidence) will not be acknowledged as such. Suffice to say, the EU has changed and evolved over time. Why wouldn't it? It happens to all organisations. Has all change been for the best? Almost certainly not. Can the EU be improved? Almost certainly, yes. But what organisation/ system is perfect? The UK constitution or government(s)? I think not. So can we assume that in your opinion, Brexit has been a success to date? If so, we clearly use differing criteria in measuring success. Did you actually read the link which you posted? The most positive comment that I could find was: "Richard Carter, analyst at Quilter Cheviot, said bright spots in the data “give some hope that a recession can still be avoided by the UK”." Hardly a reason to put up the bunting. That the UK has "outperformed" France and Germany in terms of GDP growth - a dubious claim given that, amongst other things, the EU has not issued revised figures - proves nothing in itself. You would have to show either that the UK's relative "outperformance" was due to it having left the EU and/or that France and Germany's relative "underperformance" were due to them being part of the EU: It is almost impossible to test the latter premise, but the effect of Brexit on the UK economy has been modelled and reported upon by the likes of the OBR, FT and 'Britain in a Changing Europe'. The unanimous conclusion of these organisations was that leaving the EU had negatively impacted the UK. Which is factually incorrect. I just listened to a podcast by Politico which stated that support for 'Nexit' among Dutch voters was currently 13%.

How are other EU countries prevented from stopping illegal immigrants? What's the difference between Finland and other EU member states in this context?

As I have pointed out continuously, imo the EU/UK sovereignty issue was basically a red herring. All this chaos to eliminate the 3% of EU legislation which we voted against up to 2016 from the UK stature book. (Anyone seeking a link should go to the Fullfacts website. I've lost count of the number of times I've posted the link). Brexiters keep insisting that it's not Brexit that is the problem but the way that it has been implemented. However, I've yet to see anyo posters here describe in any detail what different path could have - and presumably still should be - taken. "The next two decades will see the decline of the EU ...". If by that you mean that, relative to the rest of the world, the member states of the EU will decline economically then I agree. What you conveniently forget to mention that so will the UK. However, due to its' size the EU as a collective, will still be a significant player on the world stage both economically and politically. Sadly, as an isolated medium-sized economy like the UK will not.

Perhaps those of the opinion that the UK has no need of immigrants could explain why - having left the EU and now being fully in control of immigration - the UK government has simply decided to replace the work-shy, lazy EU nationals - who used to take all our jobs and scround off the British state (err ...🤔) - with lazy, scrounging Indians, Nigerians, Pakistanis and Ukrainians?

If we leave the ECHR we will join Belarus, Russia and Kosovo (if counted as an independent state) as the only European countries outside of the convention. Says it all.

As you say, MSM is far from perfect - and all outlets have their bias - but I would generally still set greater store by what I read there compared with social media. (Imo to infer that the DT is objective is pushing it).

I stopped over in Istanbul en route to BKK and had a similar problem with Turkish Airlines. I was questioned at check-in re my return date which is in March. Fortunately, they accepted my explanation about extending visa. If airlines allow a passenger to travel when they shouldn't, and the passenger is subsequently refused entry at the destination, the airline has to foot the bill, hence the caution. Tbh I'm surprised that these incidents don't happen more often.

Sweet, naive child. Of course Brexiters will find a way to blame the EU for this fiasco🙄

Really? How so? Could you please provide some examples of senior police officers interfering at a strategic level politically to undermine Braverman? Imo our former Home Secretary was the one acting inappropriately by continually trying to interfere in police operations. Police forces in the UK are meant to be operationally independent.

Careful. He'll have you on 'Ignore' before you know it. Mind you, all the best people are part of that club😉

The Chief 'Flat Earther' shows his loyalty to the party and government. Given that ERG MPs appear to disagree so vehemently with government policies, why don't they do the honourable thing and resign the Whip? https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12749629/Rees-Mogg-Tory-civil-war-BACKS-sacked-Home-Secretary-Suella-Braverman-Rishi-Sunak-no-Plan-B-betraying-migration-resignation-Rwanda.html

So much better to rely on 'Pravda' and 'Russia Today' for an impartial view of events.

For someone who (unsuccessfully) likes to think of themself as impartial and insists that they just want an end to all the pain and suffering, you spend a disproportionate amount of time reporting and celebrating what you view as setbacks to the Ukrainian cause and, as far as I can see, absolutely none reporting Russian problems.

So having had your various historical falsehoods laid bare - e.g. lies about promises made at the Yalta conference; ignoring the Soviet invasions of Hungary and Czechoslovakia, etc. - and your misrepresentation of the current situation on the battlefield, you now decide to play amateur psychologist in an attempt to deflect attention from the truth. Sad and pathetic.

Well said.