Sunmaster

@Red Phoenix lurking in the background and steering clear of any involvement. 😁

No, the story says that the fortress was necessary at a certain point to gather strength, but in the end it became a prison, for it gave me the illusion of knowledge and therefore separated me from true knowing. "There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison." And no, I'm not religious. I'm actually very surprised (and a bit disappointed tbh) that you would think so. if it's other than what Vedanta teaches then, well, too bad, it's incorrect, right? Did I ever say the Seth material is incorrect? EVER?? You, on the other hand, seem to think that whatever is not aligned with the Seth teachings must be distorted information. You have said so over and over again. How about that?

Vedanta Vedanta Veshmanta... 🙂 For sure there are many similarities in my point of view and that of Vedanta, but you mistake similitude with causation. My point of view is not the product of my learning of Advaita Vedanta. How could it? I learned about it less than a year ago, and certainly not in such great detail as to make me anything but a very superficial scholar. AV simply put into words that which I've learned on my own over 30 years ago. Spirituality is not about intellectual knowledge nor religion, but deep personal experience. My point of view comes from personal experience. All the concepts, be it Seth, Vedanta, Spiral Dynamics, Vulcan philosophy and whatnot, are additions to that experience that make it easier to put the experience in a framework in order to think and talk about it. I am attached to none. Take away the mental concepts from the experience, the experience is still there. Take away the experience from the concepts, the concepts become empty shells. This, in a nutshell, is what I'm hoping you would understand. The problem is, you can't understand it with the mere use of the intellect, but that is what you're relying on. The same way science can't find the location of consciousness in the body, the mind cannot find it in itself. The mind is just another object, like the body. You can only understand it by going within...no ego, no thoughts, no intellect, no mind. What is beyond the mind? That which you are. If you take away Vedanta from my mind, I would still have my own experience to rely on. I wouldn't miss it and it would be no problem for me at all. What about you and Seth? Can you see how attached you are to this framework? So much so that anything even slightly threatening makes you go into a tailspin. What did you say in one post? You are either 100% correct or 100% wrong? This is what your attachment demands of you. 100% devotion to a bunch of books, at the expense of so many other wonderful sources. I think you are frustrated with me, not because I'm dishonest (which I'm not), but because you cannot narrow me down in one of the usual categories (science-guy, religious-guy, atheist, NewAge guy....) you use when talking to others. Now you're even calling me religious! Of all things! 5555 I don't have a "form" that you recognize and because of that, you have no weapons of debate that have any effect on me. Whatever weapon you fire at me, I can simply pull out the trump card: "Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for direct experience". That's why I repeatedly asked you for your point of view and not Seth's. I wanted to see how much of the knowledge you presented is your own and how much is just borrowed. In my last story, I was the guy inside the fortress. I thought that all the books I read gave me the edge over all others. I believed that if others could follow the logic behind it, I could "lead them to the light". Sometimes I got terribly frustrated with how obnoxious certain people are. I fought tooth and nails to get my points across. I thought meditation was not necessary...after all I had that one experience and all that intellectual and spiritual wealth to get me going. Surely, so I thought, I would reach that experience again. But it was just an ego trip. No additional book brought me an inch closer to it. No additional mental concept gave me the peace I was craving. I was not much different from those priests who hold sermons about God, yet never felt what it means to be in union with God. They just repeat what they've been told. Other people may not see it at first, probably because they don't have the tools to discern the difference. Someone who has been in union with God however, will see through it quite easily. I was dishonest at that time....with myself first of all, and with others by extension. This is the core issue of the whole debate, of the whole (632 pages and almost 19k comments long) thread, of the whole issue with religions, of all the problems in the world. "Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for direct experience". You have an issue with how I interpret the Seth material. Do you agree that the interpretation of the bible (for example) depends on the level of development and understanding of those who read it? Some take it literally, some metaphorically etc.... You even mentioned that you re-read Seth after some years and found new things in it, explored new aspects of it. Where you wrong about it before you re-read the material? Same material, different understanding. How difficult then is it to imagine that my interpretation of the Seth material is just different and not wrong? Or my interpretation of reality, for that matter. Who knows, maybe in 10 years you will read the same books again and interpret them in a very different way....maybe even in my way. 😁

Yes, it's called "bibliophobia".

It's a autobiographical story, but I guess it has stricken a bell for you, too? You encouraged me to be honest and straightforward with you, but when I do, you play the offended child and shut down. I'm not here to cuddle your bruised ego. If I were to do that, I would do you a great disservice. Since I care about my fellow seeker, I will go on shaking you and rubbing your nose in it, until you tell me to stop. You don't need any more people telling you what a wonderful fortress you've built. You're doing a great job at that by yourself already. You directly asked me (twice) to kick you in the bottom, so that's what I'm doing. Maybe you didn't expect to be rattled this much... You have a choice now: either double down on your fortress, get out the big guns and shoot at anything that gets too close, or accept that the walls are inevitably starting to crumble under their own weight and start a new adventure. Either way, my fondness and respect for you won't change and I wish you all the best.

EDIT: Sorry, it works better with some illustrations. Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book? There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable. One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" "Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?" "No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." "Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" "Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!" The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible? "It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison." The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about? So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" "It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. "Can I see it too?" "Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly. "Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. "No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself." Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" "My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress. The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him. He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom. He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom. He surrendered in order to find his light. The End. 😊

Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book? There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable. One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" "Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?" "No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." "Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" "Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!" The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible? "It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison." The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about? So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" "It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. "Can I see it too?" "Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly. "Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. "No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself." Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" "My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress. The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him. He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom. He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom. He surrendered in order to find his light. The End. 😊

Interesting.

1000s of relationships....sounds like a nightmare to me. 555 I watched the original Highlander movie a couple of weeks ago. It impressed me when I was young and it first came out. It was a bit cringy but still good. Then I started watching the sequels...oh man...so so bad...I couldn't finish any of them.

You mean like this?

Sorry you feel that way, but Ok. All the best on your journey.

Care to explain where the dishonesty is?

No need to wait 200 years. Trust me. One is an Egyptian God, the other is a bodyless personality channeled by Jane Roberts. Different Seths.

Different Seth's.

Out of curiosity, what made you reach the breaking point?

Yes, "no thanks" to living forever. I'm not good with swords either.

I rarely get bored, but no thanks.

No problem, but you can still answer my last question. At least think about it.

And here you go on about Vedanta again. I thought I made it abundantly clear (several times now) that I'm not here to defend Advaita Vedanta. You seem terribly threatened that there might be another manual/map out there that has a much longer history than the Seth material, can back up its claims by producing some of the most enlightened souls and has a living tradition fueled by scores (millions) of practicing people. How many saints has the Seth material produced? How many have experienced bliss by reading his books? Or is the sole goal of a Sethian to "create your reality" and live a content life with good relationships, wealth, happiness in the material world? Not that there is anything wrong with that,.... if that's the only thing you're looking for. I don't know what the case is but I do know that you are heavily invested and when people are heavily invested in something, right or wrong, they tend not to let it go easily. LOL If there ever was a more blatant case of the pot calling the kettle black! 🤣 The reason I go on about it is because you've claimed that Vedanta is the same as Seth. It's clearly not. And yet you insist that it is. You say you're not an expert on Vedanta and only came to it about a year ago. You've read a few of Seth's books but not all. You've admitted than his material is convoluted - meaning you don't understand much of what you did read. I've been working with Seth's material for 44 years daily. And yet you insist that Seth's material and Vedanta are the same. I say it is not. What is it with you today? I never said they "are the same". I said they both point to a reality which is beyond human understanding (using the mind). Even in Vedanta there are different schools of thought. No problem. They all point to the same thing. They point to the same thing, but neither of them ARE the thing. It's UP TO YOU to find your own truth. Forget about Vedanta, forget about Seth. Forget about all that mind stuff. You've admitted than his material is convoluted - meaning you don't understand much of what you did read. Woa....slow down buddy. I said it's convoluted (at least some parts), not that I didn't understand it. This is what happens when you put intellectual knowledge above direct knowledge. You start to dissect the world in smaller and smaller bits in search for the life that fuels it. Why do you feel the need to defend Seth? Now that would be an interesting post.

Are you confusing spirituality with religion? 🤔

But Seth is?

No. Neither said nor implied (as I explained in my reply). You interpreted it that way. You created that reality. Where does it say that those complexities have to be understood on an intellectual level? Where does it say that they can't be experienced? Where is the contradiction? Well, it sure sounds like it. Again, no and I explained why. It "sounds like it" is a result of your own bias and distortion. Yes and no. The mind is a construction, a focusing tool we use to cut out a slice of infinite reality so that we may interact with the material world. Imagine a life with an unfiltered awareness, where you would be aware of light in all its bands of frequency, be aware of all sounds on the spectrum, be aware of all the thoughts and emotions around you, be aware of all the magnetic fields.....how would you be able to have a conversation with your buddies or even just feed yourself? No, our perception is limited in a way that makes physical life possible, by blocking out most of the stuff around us (or in us, for that matter). While you dive into the formless, the intellect (or maybe better call it "mind") has to be left waiting outside the door. It will be there once you come back and it will serve you even better than it did before. So the conclusion is that the intellect is geared only towards the physical world? "Insisting on using it from this point onwards is the exact opposite of what meditation is all about." Which means dispensing with it when turning your consciousness inwards. I don't know how else you can interpret that.. The mind's area of expertise is the physical (gross) and mental (subtle) world, but not for the inner worlds beyond the mind (causal). The same way you wouldn't use science to explore the inner worlds, using the mind would give you the same results. Just another empty, lifeless religion built on words instead of first-hand experience.

I don't see how Advaita Vedanta is prescribing anything. Unless you want to become a monk, you have full freedom to do with your life whatever you want. Sure, there are guidelines on what the most efficient ways are if your intent is going within...fasting helps cleansing the body and clearing the mind for example, eating certain types of food are more conducive than others if you want a healthy body, certain thoughts and beliefs are more beneficial than others if you seek true fulfillment. But they are all just habits that simply make sense if you choose to dedicate your life to inner discovery. If you want to be a swimming champion, you better don't eat McDonalds or go to sleep late every night. Common sense really. They are not prescribed in order to be "one of the club".

Well, since none of us are enlightened (yet), we are all those blind men with only a partial truth. I could say your partial truth is simply wrong because it's not the absolute truth, but I doubt you would like that. So I prefer to say that your truth is partially correct. Even though it's wrong. Mindfckery much? 😁😅

No! Replacement implies that you take away A and put B in its place. What I'm talking about is transcending A, so that B includes A. Very, very different.