Sunmaster

My currently held beliefs are certainly flawed, but at least they are the product of my own experience and not some regurgitated second-hand knowledge. Think of your currently held beliefs like a dry, stale sandwich sold as if it were a prime cut steak, so to speak. 😄

Dear friends I'm seriously questioning whether anything can be taught. They say, the teacher will appear when the student is ready. This has happened to me many times. Once I came to a breaking point where the "old" wouldn't fit anymore and there was no "new" to take its place, inevitably something happened....either in form of a conversation, something I read, a chance encounter, a dream...that would set the stage for the "new". The idea here is that there is a time when we are "ripe" for the new to take hold. The same reminders could happen (and are probably happening) all the time, but it's the timing that is not always right. There must be an inner disposition (a need, a vacuum, sometimes a desperation) to take on new information. Especially so when this information is not just more of the same horizontal info, but comes from the next higher branch of the consciousness tree. As long one thinks he has it all figured it out, then there is 1) no need and 2) no space for the new seed to sprout. You simply can't force a plant to grow faster. The only thing you can do is to provide a fertile ground and the right conditions. For @Tippaporn So, I'm pondering about the futility of it all. This is the reason why I'm not answering questions. It's not about the questions themselves, but the predisposition of the questioner(s). If the questions would come from a genuine need to understand, to fill a vacuum, I would be happy to try and answer them. However, if the only goal of the questions is to demonstrate how strong and water-tight your thought-fortress is, then I really see no point and don't want to waste my time. You can take this as a win if you like, I don't mind. 😉 That being said, I think I will take some time out and let this simmer for a while. Have a good one.

That's quite accurate. Bravo. So you are listening after all. 😁

So true! Because endlessly talking about it IS bullsh!t! Living it and experiencing it is what matters.

Man number one, two, or three cannot, by reason of his being, possess the knowledge of man number four, man number five, and higher. Whatever you may give him, he may interpret it in his own way, he will reduce every idea to the level on which he is himself." Vince reduces everything on the physical level, Tippa reduces everything on the mind level. Tippa tries to convince Vince that there is more than the physical, and fails. Sunmaster tries to convince both that there is more than the physical and the mind and fails even more. Ah, the beauty of the cosmic dance. 😅

Yes, I feel much better now. Thank you

I use the word "object" not just for material objects. Take the sentence "I have a thought." for example. "I" is the subject, "thought" is the object in this sentence. There is a duality here of subject possessing an object. Subject and object are not the same, that's why you say "I have a thought" and not "I am the thought."...or "I have this memory" and not "I am this memory." Just like when you say "I have a car." it means you are not the car. So anything that can be juxtaposed to the I is not the I. The subject can not be the object. The car is not the I. The body is not the I. The feelings are not the I. The thoughts are not the I. What is the I then?

Let's be honest. You are man 4 at the very least.

Thank you again for the link RP. Although I'm not quite sure what the difference is between man 4 and 5, I recognize many similarities in my own thinking. "The knowledge of man number seven [the enlightened one] is his own knowledge, which cannot be taken away from him; it is the objective and completely practiced knowledge of All. "It is exactly the same with being. There is the being of man number one, that is, the being of a man living by his instincts and his sensations; the being of man number two, that is to say, the being of the sentimental, the emotional man; the being of man number three, that is, the being of the rational, the theoretical man, and so on. It is quite clear why knowledge cannot be far away from being. Man number one, two, or three cannot, by reason of his being, possess the knowledge of man number four, man number five, and higher. Whatever you may give him, he may interpret it in his own way, he will reduce every idea to the level on which he is himself."

But when materialists insist and demand proof of your Seth theories, what do you do? You answer them once, twice, maybe even three times until you reach your limit. They won't get it anyway. Whatever you place in front of them doesn't stick. They just come back with the same questions over and over again. Like you. You demand answers to your questions, but when answers are given to you, you don't accept them and just keep asking. Well, I've reached my limit and being repeatedly called a fool and dishonest certainly didn't help. You have it all figured out already anyway.

Just like a material reductionist reduces everything to the material, you are trying to reduce the ineffable into easy to understand bits of information, that you can then analyze and categorize and compare with the other little bits of information you already have. The ineffable can only be experienced, not understood intellectually. So, if you expect and demand otherwise, that ain't gonna work. Sorry. So I prefer not to answer at all.

"The knowledge of man number four is a very different kind of knowledge. It is knowledge which comes from man number five, who in turn receives it from man number six, who has received it from man number seven. But, of course, man number four assimilates of this knowledge only what is possible according to his powers. But, in comparison with man number one, man number two, and man number three, man number four has begun to get free from the subjective elements in his knowledge and to move along the path towards objective knowledge. The way I see it, my one experience 30 years ago gave me a short glimpse of what it's like to be man number 5, 6 or 7 (hard to say when you are just a short time visitor). This short visit helped me greatly to make the jump from man 3 to man 4 and gave me a compass that would show me the right direction. The transition however took a long time, because I relied too much on that one experience and intellectual knowledge (reading mountains of books {see Tippa? no hate for books!}) as a means for progress. But finally realized that progress is not achievable by the mind alone. Daily practice is needed.

I'm glad you asked RP. 😄

I laughed. 😁 Certainly NOT at the final stage. Maybe just a tiny but important step ahead the road.

I think you are the one who is confused as evidenced in your post. You got one thing right, though. The example with the house is a good one. Attachment to things that are not you. The same way some people are attached to their bodies. The body decays, but does that affect the real you? I'm almost 50 but inside I still feel like a young man and sometimes a little boy. Other people are attached to their minds and how brilliant it seems to be. But the mind is also an object. You are the observer of that object. "I have a mind. I have memories, I have thoughts." Mind, memories, thoughts are objects just like the house and the body. Who is this I that possesses and experiences these objects? That's the question that you've failed to understand and answer.

If we can accept that consciousness is at the basis of all things, including us, and that consciousness, in its most fundamental definition, is "All That Is", it follows that we are always part of this consciousness, right now.... on the physical level, on the level of the mind and on the "super-mental" level (the level that transcends and includes the mind and the body). This point of awareness that we call "I"....where is it? The first reaction of most people is "Here, this body. That's me." Where exactly in your body? Well...here, in my eyes...in my brain! Can you pinpoint the exact location? Ok, maybe it's not the brain but the mind. That's where the "I" is. Memories, thoughts, feelings, likes and dislikes....that's me. But when you were born, you didn't have any of those. Was it still you? Well, of course it was me, but.... errr, I don't know.... If I take away all your memories right now, will there still be a "you"? Or will you slump down dead like a sack of potatoes? Feelings come and go. You see them rising, you see them falling away. They appear on the screen of your consciousness. The same with thoughts. You are the "I" that observes them all. Now it gets interesting. So where is this "I" that comes before the first memories, thoughts, feelings? In meditation I strive to first relax the body, then the mind. The mind is then prepared like a horse. I put the mouthpiece on, the blinders and hold the reins. Everyone can do it. You train your mind to stay focused on one thing and not fall pray to the wild monkey thoughts. Every time a monkey takes hold of you, you simply come back to your anchor, which in my case is a mantra, but can be a multitude of other things. And so, the monkeys will come less frequently and finally leave you alone. What you're left with is a calm, open mind...and silence. This state of mind is the best conductor towards revealing the true "I". The rational mind is not at work here. The true "I" lies beneath the mind, behind our thoughts, memories and feelings. This must be practiced and experienced first-hand. It can not be understood on an intellectual level, because the mind is the very thing that covers the observer behind it. When the mind subsides, the observer becomes stronger and we are able to widen our perspective (climb the tree trunk). For those rare people that have taken this to the final stage, a radically different world becomes evident. They may appear the same on the outside, but their "I" identification is no longer in the body-mind, they are now speaking from the perspective of the One Consciousness. "I" is for them the One Consciousness. To come back to enlightenment. What is meant by enlightenment is simply that first moment when consciousness realizes (remembers) itself completely and permanently. You can have several mystical experiences, many insights and awakenings before, but those are not permanent. You cannot be "un-enlightened" however. And why would you? You can still chop wood and carry water, while effortlessly resting as that One Consciousness. I don't know if this is how Vedanta or any other philosophy or religion explains it. This is how I explain it.

Yes, great quote. Quoting Osho is a bit "dangerous" due to his excentric lifestyle, but his teachings are always very profound.

I think I answered this question in my last post and in many previous posts.

Hold on to something...here it comes... You create your own reality. OK You created this reality where a personality (a seeming individualized ray of consciousness) pokes you with new information and forces you to expand your currently held worldview. You created this situation that brings you to the edge of your current understanding and gives you the opportunity to go beyond it. Enlightenment is not like you explain, "a running away from the world", but experiencing the world from the perspective of All-That-Is. How could this be an escape? How could this be anything other than complete fulness of experience? A famous quote about enlightenment goes like this: before enlightenment carry water and chop wood, after enlightenment carry water and chop wood. There are different ways of life after enlightenment, depending on the individual and his/her preferences. If you've lived your life in a cave, you will probably go on with this life. Others who lived a more similar life to ours will go on living the same life, taking care of family and attending to their worldly responsibilities just like before. Others again will feel the need to help others by bringing wisdom and compassion. They may become teachers, healers, gurus... There isn't a predefined way that all enlightened must follow. Enlightenment is not an end of something. The world is still unfolding around you. It's the way you experience it that changes. Once you take the perspective of AllThatIs and hold it, you permanently see the world as a movie on a screen. You can then decide whether you want to participate in this movie or not. There is no judgement. You can live in a cave detached from everything, or you can do the opposite, be completely immersed in the dream movie. Whatever you do, the knowing of the One consciousness as the originator is permanent and unshakeable. Seth says: "To understand it, you must go to another level of consciousness. One where the dream does not seem real." Another level of consciousness. Isn't that what I've been talking about? This life, this dream. How to understand it? By changing levels of consciousness? Note: Levels. He didn't say expand your knowledge by studying books and thinking really hard about consciousness. That is just horizontal expansion (like a branch of a tree growing out horizontally). He said "level", which indicates a vertical growth. Going from one branch to the next one higher up, where the perspective is wider. And so, there are indeed levels of consciousness, or maybe better "levels of awareness that allow for an increasingly wider understanding of consciousness ". A plant has some awareness of the world around it. A frog has another. A person another still. But to say that there are no differences (no levels), would be wrong IMO. Even within the human condition there are many different levels of awareness. Some people gravitate mostly around their body awareness. Some people gravitate around their mental awareness. A few gravitate around the more subtle aspect of their being. Different awareness, different interpretation of the One Consciousness. (PS: most people are a mixture of these levels but have usually one main center of gravity). What you seem to confuse is the difference between horizontal and vertical expansion. A person on a lower branch will find it impossible to make sense of what another says from a higher branch. Take those that interpret the Bible literally and tell them about consciousness as the Ground of All Being. Will they be able to grasp those concepts? Probably not, or they wouldn't be interpreting the Bible literally. You have the same issue when you talk to materialists. As much as you try explaining your perspective, they don't seem to get it. Right? You can write the longest post, clearly explaining your worldview in the most logical and rational way, yet still nothing. Frustrating, isn't it? This is because they are currently gravitating around a lower branch of the tree. This is not a judgement in value, but simply an acknowledgement of what is. There will always be branches under and over you, until.... Until the awareness is so wide that it encompasses EVERYTHING. That awareness witnesses all of consciousness as its own body: the tree trunk, all the branches, every single leaf. That's what they mean when they say Tat Tvam Asi...You Are That. You are the whole tree. I currently experience the same problem with levels when trying to bring my points across. I've been on your same branch level, I know what it's like. You haven't experienced the branch I'm sitting on. Yet. I could tell you for hours and days about it, but unless you jump to this branch, you won't get it. That's why I always say, put your scriptures aside and start climbing. You don't climb the tree by exploring the current branch horizontally (accumulating more mind stuff), you climb it by leaving the old branch behind and venture up the tree trunk. You are constantly asking me to climb down on the level of your branch to discuss the differences (and similarities) of the branches on that level. I can do it and have done so, but I also know it's a futile endeavour. I rather hold out my hand and invite you to see the spectacular view from my branch level. (This makes me think about the Christmas tree with the shining star at the top. Nice analogy.) That way you could see for yourself what it's all about. No talking necessary.

Precisely my point... Seth (the Seth Material) can only point towards it. The map is not the territory. The territory is beyond intellectual understanding. The territory has to be walked, not talked about. Each one of us has to do the walking on our own. Once we have walked, we can talk about it with some authority.

How to use consciousness to understand consciousness?

@VincentRJ How about you Vince? How do you see the whole concept of enlightenment? Do you believe it exists? Do you believe it is a radically different way of experiencing the world and yourself?

Question for you @Tippaporn... How do you see the whole concept of enlightenment? Do you believe it exists? Do you believe it is a radically different way of experiencing the world and yourself? Do you believe it can be realized by following certain thought processes?

Oh... Since I clearly won the tournament, I expect my trophy to be delivered within this week. I already have a nice place for it in the living room. Cheers

@Tippaporn I remember reading years ago about an event (or events) in India, where different schools of thought would come together and battle out their theories in a sort of open tournament. The debates would start by one opponent summarizing the other's point of view, and only once the other opponent declared that that summary was correct, could the first one make his point and refute the opponent's point. Basically, they were all monks beating the philosophical sh!t out of each other. This is the way I always saw our exchanges. Yesterday I did some soul searching and I came to 2 conclusions: 1) In exchanging blows, I don't regret the content, but I think it could have been delivered with more compassion. 2) In the heat of the debate, I think some spiritual pride tainted my responses. I wanted to offer a nice glass of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, but it was tainted by a drop of lemon. For this I would like to apologize to you.