Sunmaster

I think you are the one who is confused as evidenced in your post. You got one thing right, though. The example with the house is a good one. Attachment to things that are not you. The same way some people are attached to their bodies. The body decays, but does that affect the real you? I'm almost 50 but inside I still feel like a young man and sometimes a little boy. Other people are attached to their minds and how brilliant it seems to be. But the mind is also an object. You are the observer of that object. "I have a mind. I have memories, I have thoughts." Mind, memories, thoughts are objects just like the house and the body. Who is this I that possesses and experiences these objects? That's the question that you've failed to understand and answer.

If we can accept that consciousness is at the basis of all things, including us, and that consciousness, in its most fundamental definition, is "All That Is", it follows that we are always part of this consciousness, right now.... on the physical level, on the level of the mind and on the "super-mental" level (the level that transcends and includes the mind and the body). This point of awareness that we call "I"....where is it? The first reaction of most people is "Here, this body. That's me." Where exactly in your body? Well...here, in my eyes...in my brain! Can you pinpoint the exact location? Ok, maybe it's not the brain but the mind. That's where the "I" is. Memories, thoughts, feelings, likes and dislikes....that's me. But when you were born, you didn't have any of those. Was it still you? Well, of course it was me, but.... errr, I don't know.... If I take away all your memories right now, will there still be a "you"? Or will you slump down dead like a sack of potatoes? Feelings come and go. You see them rising, you see them falling away. They appear on the screen of your consciousness. The same with thoughts. You are the "I" that observes them all. Now it gets interesting. So where is this "I" that comes before the first memories, thoughts, feelings? In meditation I strive to first relax the body, then the mind. The mind is then prepared like a horse. I put the mouthpiece on, the blinders and hold the reins. Everyone can do it. You train your mind to stay focused on one thing and not fall pray to the wild monkey thoughts. Every time a monkey takes hold of you, you simply come back to your anchor, which in my case is a mantra, but can be a multitude of other things. And so, the monkeys will come less frequently and finally leave you alone. What you're left with is a calm, open mind...and silence. This state of mind is the best conductor towards revealing the true "I". The rational mind is not at work here. The true "I" lies beneath the mind, behind our thoughts, memories and feelings. This must be practiced and experienced first-hand. It can not be understood on an intellectual level, because the mind is the very thing that covers the observer behind it. When the mind subsides, the observer becomes stronger and we are able to widen our perspective (climb the tree trunk). For those rare people that have taken this to the final stage, a radically different world becomes evident. They may appear the same on the outside, but their "I" identification is no longer in the body-mind, they are now speaking from the perspective of the One Consciousness. "I" is for them the One Consciousness. To come back to enlightenment. What is meant by enlightenment is simply that first moment when consciousness realizes (remembers) itself completely and permanently. You can have several mystical experiences, many insights and awakenings before, but those are not permanent. You cannot be "un-enlightened" however. And why would you? You can still chop wood and carry water, while effortlessly resting as that One Consciousness. I don't know if this is how Vedanta or any other philosophy or religion explains it. This is how I explain it.

Yes, great quote. Quoting Osho is a bit "dangerous" due to his excentric lifestyle, but his teachings are always very profound.

I think I answered this question in my last post and in many previous posts.

Hold on to something...here it comes... You create your own reality. OK You created this reality where a personality (a seeming individualized ray of consciousness) pokes you with new information and forces you to expand your currently held worldview. You created this situation that brings you to the edge of your current understanding and gives you the opportunity to go beyond it. Enlightenment is not like you explain, "a running away from the world", but experiencing the world from the perspective of All-That-Is. How could this be an escape? How could this be anything other than complete fulness of experience? A famous quote about enlightenment goes like this: before enlightenment carry water and chop wood, after enlightenment carry water and chop wood. There are different ways of life after enlightenment, depending on the individual and his/her preferences. If you've lived your life in a cave, you will probably go on with this life. Others who lived a more similar life to ours will go on living the same life, taking care of family and attending to their worldly responsibilities just like before. Others again will feel the need to help others by bringing wisdom and compassion. They may become teachers, healers, gurus... There isn't a predefined way that all enlightened must follow. Enlightenment is not an end of something. The world is still unfolding around you. It's the way you experience it that changes. Once you take the perspective of AllThatIs and hold it, you permanently see the world as a movie on a screen. You can then decide whether you want to participate in this movie or not. There is no judgement. You can live in a cave detached from everything, or you can do the opposite, be completely immersed in the dream movie. Whatever you do, the knowing of the One consciousness as the originator is permanent and unshakeable. Seth says: "To understand it, you must go to another level of consciousness. One where the dream does not seem real." Another level of consciousness. Isn't that what I've been talking about? This life, this dream. How to understand it? By changing levels of consciousness? Note: Levels. He didn't say expand your knowledge by studying books and thinking really hard about consciousness. That is just horizontal expansion (like a branch of a tree growing out horizontally). He said "level", which indicates a vertical growth. Going from one branch to the next one higher up, where the perspective is wider. And so, there are indeed levels of consciousness, or maybe better "levels of awareness that allow for an increasingly wider understanding of consciousness ". A plant has some awareness of the world around it. A frog has another. A person another still. But to say that there are no differences (no levels), would be wrong IMO. Even within the human condition there are many different levels of awareness. Some people gravitate mostly around their body awareness. Some people gravitate around their mental awareness. A few gravitate around the more subtle aspect of their being. Different awareness, different interpretation of the One Consciousness. (PS: most people are a mixture of these levels but have usually one main center of gravity). What you seem to confuse is the difference between horizontal and vertical expansion. A person on a lower branch will find it impossible to make sense of what another says from a higher branch. Take those that interpret the Bible literally and tell them about consciousness as the Ground of All Being. Will they be able to grasp those concepts? Probably not, or they wouldn't be interpreting the Bible literally. You have the same issue when you talk to materialists. As much as you try explaining your perspective, they don't seem to get it. Right? You can write the longest post, clearly explaining your worldview in the most logical and rational way, yet still nothing. Frustrating, isn't it? This is because they are currently gravitating around a lower branch of the tree. This is not a judgement in value, but simply an acknowledgement of what is. There will always be branches under and over you, until.... Until the awareness is so wide that it encompasses EVERYTHING. That awareness witnesses all of consciousness as its own body: the tree trunk, all the branches, every single leaf. That's what they mean when they say Tat Tvam Asi...You Are That. You are the whole tree. I currently experience the same problem with levels when trying to bring my points across. I've been on your same branch level, I know what it's like. You haven't experienced the branch I'm sitting on. Yet. I could tell you for hours and days about it, but unless you jump to this branch, you won't get it. That's why I always say, put your scriptures aside and start climbing. You don't climb the tree by exploring the current branch horizontally (accumulating more mind stuff), you climb it by leaving the old branch behind and venture up the tree trunk. You are constantly asking me to climb down on the level of your branch to discuss the differences (and similarities) of the branches on that level. I can do it and have done so, but I also know it's a futile endeavour. I rather hold out my hand and invite you to see the spectacular view from my branch level. (This makes me think about the Christmas tree with the shining star at the top. Nice analogy.) That way you could see for yourself what it's all about. No talking necessary.

Precisely my point... Seth (the Seth Material) can only point towards it. The map is not the territory. The territory is beyond intellectual understanding. The territory has to be walked, not talked about. Each one of us has to do the walking on our own. Once we have walked, we can talk about it with some authority.

How to use consciousness to understand consciousness?

@VincentRJ How about you Vince? How do you see the whole concept of enlightenment? Do you believe it exists? Do you believe it is a radically different way of experiencing the world and yourself?

Question for you @Tippaporn... How do you see the whole concept of enlightenment? Do you believe it exists? Do you believe it is a radically different way of experiencing the world and yourself? Do you believe it can be realized by following certain thought processes?

Oh... Since I clearly won the tournament, I expect my trophy to be delivered within this week. I already have a nice place for it in the living room. Cheers

@Tippaporn I remember reading years ago about an event (or events) in India, where different schools of thought would come together and battle out their theories in a sort of open tournament. The debates would start by one opponent summarizing the other's point of view, and only once the other opponent declared that that summary was correct, could the first one make his point and refute the opponent's point. Basically, they were all monks beating the philosophical sh!t out of each other. This is the way I always saw our exchanges. Yesterday I did some soul searching and I came to 2 conclusions: 1) In exchanging blows, I don't regret the content, but I think it could have been delivered with more compassion. 2) In the heat of the debate, I think some spiritual pride tainted my responses. I wanted to offer a nice glass of Chateauneuf-du-Pape, but it was tainted by a drop of lemon. For this I would like to apologize to you.

@Red Phoenix lurking in the background and steering clear of any involvement. 😁

No, the story says that the fortress was necessary at a certain point to gather strength, but in the end it became a prison, for it gave me the illusion of knowledge and therefore separated me from true knowing. "There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison." And no, I'm not religious. I'm actually very surprised (and a bit disappointed tbh) that you would think so. if it's other than what Vedanta teaches then, well, too bad, it's incorrect, right? Did I ever say the Seth material is incorrect? EVER?? You, on the other hand, seem to think that whatever is not aligned with the Seth teachings must be distorted information. You have said so over and over again. How about that?

Vedanta Vedanta Veshmanta... 🙂 For sure there are many similarities in my point of view and that of Vedanta, but you mistake similitude with causation. My point of view is not the product of my learning of Advaita Vedanta. How could it? I learned about it less than a year ago, and certainly not in such great detail as to make me anything but a very superficial scholar. AV simply put into words that which I've learned on my own over 30 years ago. Spirituality is not about intellectual knowledge nor religion, but deep personal experience. My point of view comes from personal experience. All the concepts, be it Seth, Vedanta, Spiral Dynamics, Vulcan philosophy and whatnot, are additions to that experience that make it easier to put the experience in a framework in order to think and talk about it. I am attached to none. Take away the mental concepts from the experience, the experience is still there. Take away the experience from the concepts, the concepts become empty shells. This, in a nutshell, is what I'm hoping you would understand. The problem is, you can't understand it with the mere use of the intellect, but that is what you're relying on. The same way science can't find the location of consciousness in the body, the mind cannot find it in itself. The mind is just another object, like the body. You can only understand it by going within...no ego, no thoughts, no intellect, no mind. What is beyond the mind? That which you are. If you take away Vedanta from my mind, I would still have my own experience to rely on. I wouldn't miss it and it would be no problem for me at all. What about you and Seth? Can you see how attached you are to this framework? So much so that anything even slightly threatening makes you go into a tailspin. What did you say in one post? You are either 100% correct or 100% wrong? This is what your attachment demands of you. 100% devotion to a bunch of books, at the expense of so many other wonderful sources. I think you are frustrated with me, not because I'm dishonest (which I'm not), but because you cannot narrow me down in one of the usual categories (science-guy, religious-guy, atheist, NewAge guy....) you use when talking to others. Now you're even calling me religious! Of all things! 5555 I don't have a "form" that you recognize and because of that, you have no weapons of debate that have any effect on me. Whatever weapon you fire at me, I can simply pull out the trump card: "Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for direct experience". That's why I repeatedly asked you for your point of view and not Seth's. I wanted to see how much of the knowledge you presented is your own and how much is just borrowed. In my last story, I was the guy inside the fortress. I thought that all the books I read gave me the edge over all others. I believed that if others could follow the logic behind it, I could "lead them to the light". Sometimes I got terribly frustrated with how obnoxious certain people are. I fought tooth and nails to get my points across. I thought meditation was not necessary...after all I had that one experience and all that intellectual and spiritual wealth to get me going. Surely, so I thought, I would reach that experience again. But it was just an ego trip. No additional book brought me an inch closer to it. No additional mental concept gave me the peace I was craving. I was not much different from those priests who hold sermons about God, yet never felt what it means to be in union with God. They just repeat what they've been told. Other people may not see it at first, probably because they don't have the tools to discern the difference. Someone who has been in union with God however, will see through it quite easily. I was dishonest at that time....with myself first of all, and with others by extension. This is the core issue of the whole debate, of the whole (632 pages and almost 19k comments long) thread, of the whole issue with religions, of all the problems in the world. "Intellectual knowledge is no substitute for direct experience". You have an issue with how I interpret the Seth material. Do you agree that the interpretation of the bible (for example) depends on the level of development and understanding of those who read it? Some take it literally, some metaphorically etc.... You even mentioned that you re-read Seth after some years and found new things in it, explored new aspects of it. Where you wrong about it before you re-read the material? Same material, different understanding. How difficult then is it to imagine that my interpretation of the Seth material is just different and not wrong? Or my interpretation of reality, for that matter. Who knows, maybe in 10 years you will read the same books again and interpret them in a very different way....maybe even in my way. 😁

Yes, it's called "bibliophobia".

It's a autobiographical story, but I guess it has stricken a bell for you, too? You encouraged me to be honest and straightforward with you, but when I do, you play the offended child and shut down. I'm not here to cuddle your bruised ego. If I were to do that, I would do you a great disservice. Since I care about my fellow seeker, I will go on shaking you and rubbing your nose in it, until you tell me to stop. You don't need any more people telling you what a wonderful fortress you've built. You're doing a great job at that by yourself already. You directly asked me (twice) to kick you in the bottom, so that's what I'm doing. Maybe you didn't expect to be rattled this much... You have a choice now: either double down on your fortress, get out the big guns and shoot at anything that gets too close, or accept that the walls are inevitably starting to crumble under their own weight and start a new adventure. Either way, my fondness and respect for you won't change and I wish you all the best.

EDIT: Sorry, it works better with some illustrations. Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book? There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable. One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" "Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?" "No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." "Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" "Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!" The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible? "It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison." The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about? So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" "It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. "Can I see it too?" "Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly. "Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. "No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself." Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" "My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress. The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him. He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom. He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom. He surrendered in order to find his light. The End. 😊

Another day, another story....Another idea for a children's book? There was a young man full of doubts about life. He started to question everything and so he embarked on a quest to collect as much information as possible about the world around him. He immersed himself in deep study and before long he had amassed a huge number of books. With the books he started to build a fortress around him. The thick walls of the fortress gave him a sense of security and superiority. Armies repeatedly tried to attack the fortress, but it was so well built that it was impenetrable and so all the attacks failed. This fact alone was evidence to him that what he had learned from the books was the truth. From the top of the fortress tower, he looked down and felt untouchable. One day, a small child was playing with a dog outside the huge wall. "What are you doing in there?", the child asked. "I'm learning about the world and how it all works. Can't you see all my books?" "Sure I can see them. But if you want to learn about the world, wouldn't it be better to come out here and experience it?" "No need. I have a vast library here that can tell me everything I need to know." "Oh OK. Sounds great. Does your library teach you what a rose smells like? Or what it feels like when you wash your face in the cool water of the mountain stream?" "Ehm...well, no...but I don't need to know those things. They are not necessary to know the secret of life.", the man proclaimed proudly. "I have already found the secret of life. Many tried to attack me and prove me wrong....they all failed. My knowledge and my logic are invincible! I dare you to try and attack me!" The child looked thoughtful. He started to walk towards the walls, passed right through them as if they were made of smoke, walked up to the man and slapped him right in the face. The man couldn't believe his eyes. He was furious. How did this happen? How was this possible? "It's quite simple", the child replied." Your walls only work against those who believe them to be real. Those other armies had fortresses made of the same stuff, so for them they were real. I see things differently. I see a strong light where you are standing, but this light is weakened and dimmed by those smoke walls you built around yourself. There was a time when you needed the protection of the fortress so that you could gather your strength, but now that you are strong, these walls are no longer needed. They are no longer a fortress but a self-created prison." The man was still dumbfounded. Is it possible that there is more to life than what I thought? And what about this light he's talking about? So he asked, "What is this light you're talking about?" "It's the light the illuminates the world.", the child said. "Can I see it too?" "Of course you can! You are that light!" The child smiled broadly. "Do you have a book that can teach me?", the man asked hopingly. "No sorry, no books....but if you step out of that fortress, you can smell that rose and you can wash your face in the cool mountain stream. Then you will know and see it for yourself." Confronted with the new evidence, there was nothing left to do for the man than to swallow his pride, leave the safety of his fortress and venture out. Now, for the first time, he could feel the grass under his feet, he could feel the warmth of the sun on his face, he could feel the gentle breeze of the wind through his hair. A new world opened up in front of him. The objects of the world were still the same as before, but now they were illuminated by a new light. By observing the light reflected from the objects around him, he got to know his own light. His cheek was still a bit sore from the slap he got earlier, but it didn't hurt anymore. It was now a reminder of the time when he was a prisoner of his own making and was grateful for it. The man turned around and thanked the child for his help. "What's you name little boy?" "My name is your name. I am you. I just came to remind you of who you are." and with that, the child vanished into thin air, just like the walls of the fortress. The man was now all alone, outside, defenseless, yet none of that worried him. He had lost his fortress, but he gained a kingdom. He had lost his safety, but he gained freedom. He surrendered in order to find his light. The End. 😊

Interesting.

1000s of relationships....sounds like a nightmare to me. 555 I watched the original Highlander movie a couple of weeks ago. It impressed me when I was young and it first came out. It was a bit cringy but still good. Then I started watching the sequels...oh man...so so bad...I couldn't finish any of them.

You mean like this?

Sorry you feel that way, but Ok. All the best on your journey.

Care to explain where the dishonesty is?

No need to wait 200 years. Trust me. One is an Egyptian God, the other is a bodyless personality channeled by Jane Roberts. Different Seths.

Different Seth's.