khaosai

According to a poster on Pprune forums, the engine data is transmitted with ACARS data.

Therefore for Rolls Royce to have the engine data MAS ought to by default have the other ACARS flight data since the engine data is disseminated from it. Apparently its sent through the same communications system. - at least that's what seems to be being implied.

I thought I saw somewhere that MAS doesn't have ACARS on their 777?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Hi,

That may well be the case but I am of the understanding that ACARS is standard fit to all Boeing 777 aircraft and will be used regularly for communication and reporting.

My experience of ACARS is that it's reliable and works well. I have in the past sent a message to engineering with some info on a minor technical issue and had a reply from them stating that they were aware of the fault due to the data having been downloaded automatically. I am not sure of what it monitors but it does seem to cover many different parameters and components.

There is a possibility that if there is a problem with the data communication management system prior to departure then ACARS may not work.

The datalink connection and transponder data seemed to stop working at the same time. That could be due to catastrophic failure no doubt, but could also be achieved within the flight deck quite easily within 5 seconds.

Some mention was made to controllers stationed in Rayong having picked up some radio transmissions. If this was the case then other aircraft would have heard these transmissions too.

Reference was also made to a radar image travelling westbound at an intermediate flight level, 29500ft. That would be a contingency procedure used quite often in busy airspace to prevent collision. I am not sure how primary radar could determine the height of the aircraft, but may be possible.

The plane did not crash into the sea at any part of the planned route. That route is take by many more planes, plus is searched by planes and ships. A plane that large gives a huge rubble of floating debris, think of 250 seats that are floating, luggage of 250 people, 250 swim vests, many parts of a plane are light weight and will float, so a crash in a frequented part of the South Chinese sea is unlikely, as no debris are found.

Second option is what the military found but had to withdraw: the plane turned around.

That means that all searchers are at the wrong place. It was mentioned that it was on the military radar near an island between Malaysia and Indonesia, that is way out of the are where they are searching now. The airforce commander had to take his statement back, but I personnally think he knows more than all officials will admit.

Another thing: the pilots can switch off the black box signal (I read) and also radar signals. That would leave only ground radar efficient, radar that send a signal and catches reflections. Military have that, not sure about civil radars. It would explain something: military saw more than civil radar.... If this happened the plane could have flown anywhere and landed. Reason why no debris are found yet....

Just a few thoughts...

Hi,

The crew can switch off a few flight deck components but the black box is not one of them. Hopefully they will find something soon.

If one possibilty is the plane flew north west of Penang wouldn't that have envolved flying over Thai airspace? The red-hot Thai air defense system couldn't possibly have missed this could they?

It would appear that neither the Thai nor the Malaysian air defense radar is capable of locating unidentified (ie no transponder) aircraft flying near their border airspace. Both nations' air forces are a joke.

Hi,

200 miles north west of Penang would put it south of Phuket. Primary radar range would cover less of an area than secondary radar. I think primary radar coverage may be in the region of 50 to 80 miles whereas secondary radar coverage will be anywhere up to 250 miles.

A very unusual event has occurred for sure. I would like to hear the Malaysian officials discuss possible ACARS messages being transmitted from the aircraft to the engineering department.

I've just looked at the Egypt Air B777-200 fire 29th Jul 2009. This was suspected to have started in the cockpit, in in the region of the pilot oxygen supply. No fatalaties in this case as the aircraft was on the ground, and was evacuated safely...But what if a similar thing had happened whilst in the air?

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20110729-0

Hi Steve73, I don't know if this is the scenario that the Malaysian aircraft encountered but it would be very demanding for a crew indeed.

The smoke, fire, fumes checklist tells you to put on the oxygen mask. Would the oxygen be available ? It's a fairly long checklist with 5 pages but does state at the bottom of page 1 that if the smoke or fumes becomes the greatest threat then go to the smoke or fumes removal checklist.

For me, uncontrollable fire and/or smoke is the biggest threat to the industry.

Already another complete shambles of a press conference. Surely cannot be loss of face to hire a PR Professional?

Hi,

I agree. Very frustrating not being able to hear clearly the questions asked. Why not issue some form of order as the journalists arrive. First to arrive allows the first opportunity to ask two questions each with a microphone and then on to the next person.

Hi,

generally the Boeing 777 - 200 aircraft has 4 ELT's onboard. One at the front stowage and one at the rear stowage of the aircraft. The other two are fitted individually on a slide/raft which will transmit automatically when in contact with water.

The ELT may work for 48 to 60 hours depending on the model used and transmits on VHF and UHF frequencies.

On the newer model of B777 there is a flight deck switch which controls a fuselage mounted ELT which will operate automatically due to a large impact.

Just seen the sky news channel with a simulation on what may have happened due to lack of oxygen for the pilots. Plausible, yes, but does not explain the lack of secondary surveillance radar picking up the transponder code.

A very plausible scenario .... http://mh370lost.tumblr.com/?og=1

Hi,

I think it's great that people are bouncing ideas around to try and come up with potential reasons for the aircrafts disappearance. However I don't this is plausible due to the caution then warning the pilots will get in the flight deck well in advance of the cabin altitude being a problem to carry out any required tasks.

I note on the pilots' forum a suggestion that the plane lost all comms due to some unexplained event, and that the pilot maybe turned back to fly 'blind' back to KL, but that the plane was then shot down by the Malaysians themselves who possibly mistook this 'anonymous' plane as some sort of terrorist threat.

Sounds far-fetched? Maybe not - and it would explain the confusing messages being given out by the Malaysian military - try explaining to the Chinese government that you have just killed dozens of their citizens by mistake.....

In time, I hope the truth will come out.

Simon

I'm along these lines too! Why is it only coming out now about the military tracking it's movements. I.e the urn around from the aircraft? Just caught the back end of the news in the uk with regards to people phoning mobile phones and the phones ringing? Also something to do with social media websites..... Either way I go back to what I said about 45 pages ago.... This reeks of a cover up!!

It could well be the case, but if you have a communication problem with the aircraft radios you can select a specific 4 digit code in the aircraft transponder which will alert the appropriate agency that your radios have failed. You could also call the appropriate air traffic control on the satellite phone to inform them of the situation. This all assumes that the transponder and sat phone are working of course.

When flying along, crews always monitor the international VHF distress frequency 121.5. It's not uncommon to hear the emergency locator transmitter (ELT) on this distress frequency. When the crews hear it they will inform air traffic control. As stated by previous posters the signal strength will be greatly reduced if underwater.

So where on Sumatra can a T7 land?

Banda Aceh and Medan in Sumatra.

A course reversal due to a significant problem, the crew may head for Penang but songkhla is actually the closest to the last know position.

Hi Transam,

Great video. Brave guys indeed. Total respect.

Hi,

For me the biggest threat to aviation is an uncontrollable fire onboard. As stated above the aviate, navigate and communicate technique is used extensively within aviation. The navigation part is get the aircraft pointed to where you want or need to go. With the uncontrollable fire case that option may well be to ditch the aircraft.

The final report on the UPS crash in the Middle East is a sobering account on how quickly things can develop.

Boeing's guidance on smoke fire or fumes that are uncontrollable dictates an immediate landing. If a severe situation then amongst the options is to consider ditching.

Hi,

It seems the aircrafts last known position was at waypoint Igari. This is the position which defines the boundary between Malaysia and Vietnam. It is approximately 90 miles off the Malaysian Coast from Kota Bharu and 200 miles off the coast of Vietnam. The turn mentioned could be due to the change in direction of the airway system they followed.

Communication on this route would initially be on VHF radio, possibly then on HF radio and also the option to use Datalink (CPDLC/ADS) which is available both in Malaysian and Vietnamese airspace. Both the VHF and HF radios have circuit breakers which can be easily accessed.

The aircraft has 3 radio panels available, left, centre and right. On these you would tune the VHF and HF frequencies which are generally passed to the crew by air traffic control or you can get from the charts that are used en route so long term loss of communication is not that common. The pilot can also log on to the datalink facility which then enables messages to be sent to and from the aircraft between the pilot and controller. The ADS function working automatically in the background. ADS has the option to be selected off and can also be selected to emergency if required.

The transponder which is generally selected on just prior to pushback is a system that allows the controller to issue a unique 4 digit code to the aircraft to enable identification during flight using secondary surveillance radar. The pilot can also select a discrete code to highlight to the controller if the radio has failed, there is an emergency in effect or unlawful interference has taken place. It also provides traffic collision avoidance information during flight. It can easily be selected off during flight.

ACARS is a onboard system which allows communication between the ground and aircraft. It works by using VHF frequencies around the world and when out of range of VHF (limited to line of sight)will automatically change over to using satellite communication. It is generally used to send flight plans, air traffic control clearances and fuel figures prior to departure and will also communicate in the background to the engineering department any significant aircraft issues.

You also have satellite communication which is generally available during flight except in the polar region.

A rapid decompression would be very demanding for a crew to deal with. First and foremost is to get the oxygen mask on for obvious reasons. You would then continue with the required memory actions then ensure all of those have been completed by referencing the applicable check list. If the cabin begins to depressurise at a slower rate then it's a lot more manageable. You get a caution at a cabin altitude of 8500ft with a warning at 10000ft. The passenger oxygen masks will deploy at approximately 13500 ft and provide just over 20 minutes of oxygen. If overcome due to the effects of hypoxia then the aircraft will continue to fly until fuel exhaustion occurs.

The glide distance of the B777 with both engines operating from 35000ft would be in the region of 100 nautical miles. With both engines off it would be less than that, perhaps 70 to 80 miles.

A controlled ditching would be very demanding, particularly at night or in heavy seas. There is a designated check list for this event if it is ever required.

Would it be possible to fly low, below radar in this aircraft. Personally I think it would be.

What surprises me is the lack of communication. No mayday call, either on the VHF radio or HF radio or using the ADS function of the datalink. No downlink of ACARS information to the airline if a significant event has occurred during flight. It may however have been unserviceable. No radar trace. No debris. No seismic activity recorded.

The aircraft probably had in the region of 50 tons of fuel onboard at departure. At top of climb that would then be in the region of 45 tons which would enable the aircraft to remain airborne for a long period of time. At cruise altitude it would be flying at about 470 knots true air speed.

Thoughts with all involved and hope they can get some closure soon.

I fear there is no way that anybody can have survived this. To take a different angle for once, there is a lot that remains to be done for the safety of airplanes when crash landing on sea. The structure is just not stiff enough to survive the impact generated when the airplane touches water, even supposing that it comes in at a relatively favourable angle and airspeed. The engines in their usual hanging construction provide an immediate anchor effect that will drag the cabin down. They would need to be moved elsewhere, or fitted with an emergency jettisoning device, together with the outer half of the wing. All this of course costs money, and accidents are very rare, too rare to warrant any substantial modification...

All sounds great but quite impossible.

Which is why I usually smile when they do their bit before take off telling you how to use a life vest.

Like you said even with as nice a touchdown as possible the fact that the water will give way will imply it will never be

able to do a wheel up landing as they have done on foamed runways during a landing gear failure.

It is just impossible + the stall speed of something this size is too high to make a difference between any favorable angle

Approach speed for this plane is 133 knots

They basically need to fly it onto the deck at which point the water is going to give unlike a hardtop.

Not to mention an open sea is anything but flat & swells can easily be 20'+ tall

Does not matter how stiff something is if speed & weight ultimately overcome that on impact.

Something is going to catch if not an engine as you said a wing tip etc. & it is going to tumble & tear itself apart.

The good news is even with a terrible event like this one,

Air travel is probably still the safest mode of distance travel

in the world.

Hi,

Sad news indeed and thoughts with all involved. Hopefully they can find the wreckage and flight data information to find the actual cause of this disaster.

I don't think that this aircraft ditched, as some form of communication would undoubtably have occurred. Regarding the possibility of ditching an aircraft this large, it's not impossible but would be extremely difficult. As an aside the ideal pitch attitude on touchdown would be in the region of 10 to 12 degrees nose up.

RIP to all souls onboard.

Correct SVB

Cold weather testing and in North America for its first time. Although its engines were tested here last year on the 380.

A few more pics

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smallDSC01018.jpg

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Hi,

What a great looking machine. The first Airbus in quite a while that looks right.

Thanks topt

Where is the Pattaya location, please? I will be there next month.

Hi,

Try Kasikorn Bank in the central shopping mall in Pattaya.

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

That's the Captain khaosai, and not all Captains are paid that, only those on A340 and B747. I can assure you it's not at the top end compared with many countries. It is good gross money compared with some SE Asian, African, and South American airlines, but not Cathay, Dragon and Singapore, along with most of the European airlines, and they have more friendly tax systems than Australia. I don't begrudge them a cent, incidentally.

If anybody is being paid too much in QF it's the loaders and flight attendants because they have militant representation.

Pilot salaries represent a very small percentage of the operating costs of an airline, and if the guys/girls up front cost less than a grand an hour, including salary, super, sick leave, etc., it's only a couple of $$ per seat per hour, not much to have the best trained crew in the world taking care of you. Consider the cost of an aircraft, upwards of $300 million (lease cost $30 million pa), fuel burns of 10 tonnes an hour, maintenance costs, etc., and if a crew cost a total of $700,000 a year for flying 1000 hours, it is nothing!

Incidentally I consider the best trained crews to be Brits, Australians and Kiwis, bar none.

Hi,

Some good points there but I still think your way off the mark with overall pilot salaries. Legacy carriers will of course be well paid but most airlines will offer nothing like those terms and conditions to their crews.

Do Qantas operate the 340 ?

You state that the British, Australians and Kiwis are the best trained crews. Are those military pilots. I have flown with many nationalities who have been as proficient as any of those nationalities you mentioned, albeit in the airline industry.

I had a flight with Thai Lion Air dmk-cnx-dmk and it was excellent on both occasions. A BRAND NEW plane, friendly and good English speaking staff on the ground and in the air.

On time on both occasions and so cheap as an introduction price. Really nothing wrong with them and I even highly recommend Lion Air after this very pleasant experience.

Brand new planes are one thing, the ability to safely fly those brand new planes is quite another.

Passengers largely assess the quality of an airline by the departure being on time, baggage not lost, or by the landing being OK. The first couple we all expect, and the landing is but a very small part of the flight, a relatively easy part at that. The approach, and that could start 10 or more minutes before touchdown, is far more important than the landing, but a passenger has no way of knowing how the approach was flown.

Passengers have no idea what is happening 'up front', and I've seen, and know of a lot of, appalling piloting among Asian carriers, particularly the low cost carriers.

Most people think that Japan, being the land of Honda and Sony, would have high standards, but the piloting and maintenance standards are appallingly low. How they don't stack aircraft every day is quite beyond me.

It's your life.....you have only one. I suppose it's a bit like wearing a thin, cheap plastic helmet on a motorcycle. If you have a $5.00 head, wear a $5.00 helmet!!

Hi,

I have never flown with this airline so can't comment on the inflight service. They have however suffered from safety issues over the years which is well documented and which would prevent me from choosing them as a travel option.

I have to disagree with F4U Corsair who states that landing is relatively easy. That is most definitely not the case. I would also be very interested in what sort of appalling piloting he has witnessed on low cost carriers in Asia.

My personal experience of Japan is that the maintenance there is to a very high standard and which I have complete faith in when flying there.

QF pilots are underpaid by comparison with many of the world's airlines. $350-400K for an A340/B747 is not a lot when compared with airlines in other countries.

The pilots have always been the soft targets for airline managements because they just want to keep flying and get the job done. Other unions, loaders and flight attendants, particularly, don't value their jobs and won't back down so the management does. It's why cabin managers earn $150K, and loaders $120K+.

Back to the discussion though, and Joyce is running the airline into the ground and growing Jetstar, the LCC arm of QF. When the bulk of the flying is being done by Jetstar, it will be rebranded Qantas, all/most staff will be paid less than half (Jetstar A330 Captain on less than $200K currenlty), and the bottom line will be dramatically improved.

Hi F4UCorsair,

If the Qantas pilots are being paid 350 to 400 000 per year then I think you will find that is probably towards the higher end of pilots salaries world wide. They are obviously subject to tax in the region of 50%, but net wise it's still good money compared to some other airlines across the globe.

I hope Qantas does survive, but as it stands things are looking very uncertain at the moment.

The problem is familiarity breeds contempt. JoBurg is not a big complicated airport such as Schipol or Dallas Fort Worth.

Having flown into all 3 of the airports you mention I have no doubt Johannesburg offer challenges like the other two do.

Quite the reverse. However speaking as a both a helicopter and fixed wing pilot with three decades experience I fear boredom and routine is what catches out the modern airline captain. Air France 447 was a classic example of three pilots losing the plot.

With your 3 decades of experience have you actually sat at the point end of a modern jet airliner. From your paragraph I suspect not. The Air France loss was not attributed to boredom, routine or loosing the plot.

Airline flight crew today are systems managers that taxi the aircraft to the runway, read from a checklist and rotate the aircraft in to the sky to a maximum altitude of 5,000ft whereby the autopilot fly's to the destination. They then monitor the flight until landing often on autoplit down to the ground.

Flight crews are pilots first and foremost I can assure you. Monitoring plays a vital part of that. If the aircraft is not doing as intended then intervention is required. I am not sure where you got the max altitude of 5000 ft from.

The flight deck has lots of toys but sadly not a basic $100 dollar GPS which would have told them turn left!

How hard is it to look out of the window and realise the building is going to scrape the paintwork?

Trying to judge wing tip clearance on the 747 or any large aircraft for that matter is difficult.

Hi,

BA have been flying there for a long time, however it may well have been the crews first time visit. Unlikely but not impossible.

What they may have is some form of reference document that pilots can refer to and which highlights specific threats at that particular airport. Whether this threat was highlighted I don't know, but a good chance it will be from now on.

Hi,

the airport lighting and signage are somewhat lacking in certain areas at this airport, which can pose a challenge, particularly at night. Lack of familiarity, with possible distractions could easily result in a mistake and cause this crew to continue taxying straight ahead rather than turn left towards the runway holding point.

Trying to judge wing tip clearance on large aircraft is very very difficult to judge during daylight, nigh on impossible at night.

Generally the pilot flying will taxi the aircraft, and certainly on this aircraft there is a tiller to allow the aircraft to be taxied from either seat.

There would probably have been 3 pilots on the flight deck, with many thousands of hours of experience between them, working for an airline with very high standards. The final report will make for interesting reading that hopefully pilots will learn from in the future.

Got to laugh at all the wrinkly old farts on here moaning about how the tattoos will look in 20 or 30 years time - YOU WONT BE AROUND TO SEE IT!!

She would look much better WITHOUT the tattoo.

I really like this tattoo, but certain bedroom gymnastics might be a little unsettling, particularly seeing how the lady is squeezing those fruits !

I do think it's art in most cases, but with your precious blank canvas make sure you get it done properly first time around. Miami ink and LA ink are great shows and no doubt prove there is some real talent out there. Respect.

From the Asiana video, it's obvious that Boeing make a sturdy aircraft.

Turbulence continues to strike unexpectedly, wear those belts.

Jet lag is a monumental pain that you never get used to.

Certain nationalities seem hell bent on standing up whilst the aircraft is taxying towards it's stand. Logic anyone ?

It's a serious business, with no room for complacency, particularly when sat at the pointy end.

Mine always drew hearts on those ping pong balls before the show.

Thing must have dried up I guess if the hearts were still visible by the intended recipient !

Hi,

Ice Crystal Icing (ICI) seems to be causing some issues. Some good information for crews was incorporated into the operating manuals a few years back on cues to look out for and how to avoid it.

Detection via weather radar is difficult due to poor reflectivity from ice. Most encounters have been in the tropics however it's not limited to those areas. The subject and understanding of ICI continues to evolve.

It's basically a large amount of small ice crystals accumulating in the engine core which can lead to vibration, power loss and engine damage.

If an encounter happens there is now a checklist to follow and that checklist covers both GE and RR.