herfiehandbag

The problem with labelling media outlets as biased can be if you conflate actual partisan propaganda with not following your own personal political or social stance. For example, I along with many, accuse the BBC of bias, sometimes some of their reporting annoys me,along with for example that of the Guardian and the Independent. If I look at it cooly, it is really the case (BBC) that I don't think that they give my point of view sufficient standing. Very rarely is it open partisan reporting. I cannot speak for Al Jazeera, I very rarely watch it.

7. I am going to take my tinfoil hat off now, as it is making my head rather hot. When my head gets hot I tend to froth at the mouth!

I see (BBC website) that facial recognition software has identified one of the hostage takers as a member of the Gaza Police. It is inescapably a fact that the police, along with much of Gaza's civil infrastructure, is funded by the European Union.

Umh, can you imagine what Putin would be doing right now if the state of Israel had been created on Russian land? History is in many ways a curse in these situations, but, the land of Israel was for many centuries the homeland of the Jews. The Temple Mount in Jerusalem was the site of the Temple, the centre of Judaism, long long (over a thousand years) before it was claimed as the 3rd most sacred sight for Islam, in fact it also had (has) great significance for Christians - Jerusalem is the Christian holy city as well. As I said, history is a curse, but if it is to be claimed as part of the justification for one side, then it must be allowed as a claim for the other. In blunt terms, the Jews were there first.

They were on a murder and hostage taking spree - and let us be honest, Arabs are not particularly known for racial tolerance towards Asian people!

Since Hamas hate the Palestinian Authority almost as much as they hate Israel this will go nowhere.

Israel lived within it's pre 1967 borders for 20 years. Throughout that time the Palestinian fighters/guerrillas/terrorists carried out a relentless campaign of bombings, bus bombings, ambushes, raids on kibbutzes (specialising I rather recall on shooting up kindergartens); farmers near borders were sniped at and mortared whilst working the fields. Great efforts were made to divert rivers to destroy irrigation and make the land infertile, the surrounding Arab states, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan and Egypt ( with Iraq in the second rank) were complicit in staging many of these attacks, and provided safe bases, training and equipment to the attackers. Open military threats were ramped up, culminating in a maritime blockade of Israel's Red Sea port, and ultimately the 1967 6 day war. Israel was not able to live in peace during those 20 years. It also lived with the fact that it's borders were inherently indefensible, especially in the north and centre. One decently handled Jordanian armoured brigade could have cut the country in two in 36 hours. So there was no peace, Israel was vastly outnumbered. A variety of United Nations forces were set up - they did little but sit in watchtowers and watch through binoculars - pretty supine really. Israel won the 6 day war, at great cost and with spectacularly successful fighting. They then set about establishing new borders, with impeccable military logic, if disputable political logic, to ensure that the risk of being militarily overrun was removed. They occupied Sinai ( later handed back to Egypt under a peace treaty, occupied Gaza, the West Bank and the Golan Heights. They held on to these, and prevented another attempt to overrun the country in the Yom Kippur war. That's why the Golan and West Bank remain under occupation. The settlements are, in my opinion wrong, but Israel is a democracy, a concept not followed anywhere else in the region, and the settlements have ( some, not total) political support. Fast forward to now, Gaza run by a fundamentalist islamic group; and we have just seen what they can and will do. The Palestinian Authority, given some autonomy, controlled by an eye wateringly corrupt government led by an elderly politician in the 17th year of his 4 year elected term; undoubtedly bound to fall into the grip of a theocratic terror regime in the near future if Israel relinquishes control. Iran funding, equipping, training terrorists and taking a leading role in planning the attacks. Iran, and the terrorist groups it controls, Hamas, Hizbollah, Islamic Jihad ( a particularly vicious bunch they are) remain committed publicly to the destruction of Israel, irrespective of the 1967 borders, and alarmingly, the genocide of it's Jewish population. My conclusion, there can be no political peace, whilst there is no will for it. Arguably there may be a desire for it within Israel, but absolutely not amongst those leading, and likely to continue leading the Palestinians. The only real short term solution is for one side to inflict a crushing military defeat on the other. Israel lives with the threat of genocide, it's reaction to that is inevitably overshadowed by the Holocaust. Israel looks as if it is preparing to inflict such a crushing defeat on Hamas. They know (and for the most part don't relish), that they will have to do so every decade or so for the foreseeable future. Longer term, well the best hope is that the theocratic terrorist sponsoring regime in Iran changes. it is tragic. Incidentally, I think the Israeli Defence Minister referred to Hamas rather than Gaza as animals. He was, in the clip I found, speaking in Hebrew so there may have been some room for error in translation.

Indeed, except an apostate Muslim is, in many Muslim societies, living under a death sentence. Now I don't know about Gaza, but I somehow doubt that Hamas would show much mercy to apostates...

The frequently shown footage of the female hostage her hands covered in blood and zip tied behind her back being dragged from the rear of the black SUV by the gallant Hamas fighter, literally shows that she had had the <deleted> kicked out of her - God help her. I have little doubt that these poor hostages will be murdered, possibly to be shown on video accompanied by manly islamic chanting. However in many cases their captors faces are shown. Israel will identify them. They are "dead men walking"!

That's the one. "And the room went silent"!

There is a recording of an Israeli envoy to the United Nations General Assembly (perhaps ten years ago) addressing in turn various envoys from North African litoral countries, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt; asking each in turn,"so, what happened to all your Jews?" The speech was in response to one of the regular UN General Assembly motions to censure Israel. Quite a powerful speech, very simple. None of them answered, a lot of squirming

Parading around in a captured Israeli vehicle like that is remarkably silly. One aircraft. One laser target marker. One bomb.

On the plus side, they wouldn't have to worry about repairing the street lighting...

It is incredibly naive, no, utter hyperbole, to suggest that Israel has any intention of murdering 2 million people in Gaza. Their stated intention is to destroy Hamas as a government (elected in 2006 and now in the 17th year of their 4 year term!), and in particular the ability to wage war on Israel, and to carry out the sort of large scale murderous attacks which they have in the last 72 hours. This will inevitably lead to casualties amongst civilians, because Hamas hides behind and amongst the civil population, uses hospitals and schools to hide it's weapons and as launch sites for it's rockets. To that we can now add a hundred or more hostages. Such casualties will be terrible, and add to the misery of the Gaza people, misery already hugely exacerbated by Hamas's savage rule. Recognise that Hamas's charter incorporates a clause committing them to the utter destruction of the State of Israel, and one (article 7 if I am correct, although I may be wrong in the numbers) which commits them to the slaughter of the Jewish population - some 9 million. Taking those practices, their domestic human rights abuses, their clear commitment to genocide, and the atrocities of the last 72 hours, to casually dismiss those atrocities with "yes we know all about that" amounts to determined apologism for that appalling slaughter. I said on Sunday morning, at the beginning of this thread, what I thought of you and your views. I absolutely stand by that statement.

250+ shot in cold blood at a music festival; filmed and published. 10 youths shot in a shelter in cold blood; filmed and published. Dozens of hostages seized and paraded into Gaza; filmed and published. The body of a young woman stripped and abused in the streets of Gaza; filmed and published. Amongst the victims (dead and hostages); Europeans, Britons, Americans, Thais and Filipinos. I don't think there will be boycotts, other than the usual suspects, particularly from the Western, North American and South East Asian nations. Israel really would have to "go some" to dispell public support!

That is a bit more doable, they can fly out of RAF airfields in Cyprus.

I doubt that they will be too bothered. I am old enough to remember (as a young boy) the gallant Yasser Arafat and his brave warriors attacks on the Kibbutz kindergartens, (and my father's cold fury, swearing under his breath as he watched the TV news, my mother sending me and my brother out of the room). They of course, having lived through and fought in the second world war knew a bit about such savagery, my father particularly as he served with the Intelligence Corps cleaning up the remaining Nazis in Austria. The enlightened ones marched and protested against Israel's reaction. In certain circles heads were very wisely and understandingly nodded at the PLO attacks at the Munich Olympics They're used to it - why do you think that Thailand is such a popular destination for their young people? It is one of the relatively few destinations where they don't have to continuously look over their shoulders. When the alternative is regular slaughter on the scale of this one, and the existential threat to their country, their liberal society and their free population, they simply will not care, and few Westerners will be bothered either. Saudi is of no concern to them, it is a medieval <deleted>hole with air conditioning, they treat their women like dirt (mainstream Israeli society has long been at the forefront of female emancipation) and once the oil is no longer important they will be back to magic carpets and camels. Israel has the high tech industries. No, compared to the alternative they will live with it. They are a pretty robust bunch.

An unmarked and unrecorded grave is more likely. After Hamas have finished having their fun, the sort of fun of which there is now video evidence.

The silliest one I remember was some bunch marching in London under rainbow flags in support of Hamas, whilst in Gaza Hamas was gaily (no irony intended) throwing homosexuals off of tall buildings.

With what? A slack handful ( nominaly 12 but 10 are quoted as undergoing/ awaiting refurbishment) of elderly C130H, they don't have the range without staging through India and the Gulf states, and are unlikely to be allowed to overfly Iran or Syria. An airlift with chartered civilian (Thai International) airliners is more probable, although similar overflight restrictions probably apply. Of course Thai International may be reluctant to divert aircraft from more lucrative activities to take part. In previous times Russian owned aircraft were often available for short notice charter for this sort of thing, not really an option any more.

Militant Islam.

The hostages are a massive complication. They will probably be used in an attempt to bargain for the release of all of the many Hamas terrorists Israel holds, and possibly as human shields for Hamas to hide behind. The release of these terrorists, together with any other "demands" which would have to be met, will both reinvigorate and reinforce the Hamas project, which don't forget is unequivocally aimed at destroying Israel, and the killing and or expulsion of it's Jewish population. The concessions they will demand will weaken Israel's ability to defend itself. Episodes like those of this weekend will become commonplace, and the accompanying death tolls will continue. There is no prospect of effective negotiation. Iran will make sure of that. Iran's aim is to control the Middle East, it already has control of Lebanon, and has ambitions for the rest of the region. It sees the elimination of Israel as a means of cementing it's popularity in the region, and removing the main bar on extending its control to include Jordan, Syria, Iraq and likely Egypt. That really leaves only the option of taking the battle to Hamas, to destroy it's military power, and hope (probably vainly) to recover the hostages. Israel's government faces horrible dilemmas, terrible choices. Choices which will colour the Middle East for a generation. I say choices, but really they don't have a choice, if they don't destroy Hamas then the future of their state, and it's 9 million plus population is grim. If they give in to Hamas's demands, then thousands of it's people will die as these attacks continue. The fate of these wretched hostages is awful, but inevitably must be considered in this context. My heart bleeds for the mother of that German girl , making desperate pleas in the hope that somehow she is still alive, (she isn't, God rest her soul); there will be hundreds and hundreds of others. A terrible, terrible choice, look at that minister's face, it haunts him. But he, they, really don't have a choice.

What about the hostages? I understand a number of Thai and Filipinos were seized. The Philippines are no doubt regarded by their noble jihadhist captors as closely linked to America, and therefore probably, tragically, little hope for them. The Thais?

Amulets?

Netanyahu ( far from my favourite politician, although he was, in the final analysis, elected) is using language that indicates that he wants to destroy Hamas. Given what Hamas has done perhaps not surprising. Destruction of the organisation is unlikely, but it's capacity to wage war both now and for the foreseeable future can probably be achieved. Hamas has certainly achieved one mid term result. Gaza will remain sealed, and it's inhabitants unable to enter Israel to find work. Inevitably of course this will result in accusations of Israel overreacting. With nigh on a thousand dead, 250 alone being entirely innocent festival goers, children gunned down ( with the acts being filmed), hostages taken and paraded, and bodies abused, I doubt that Israel will care what the enlightened commentary says! Two results for Hamas, inevitable widespread damage to the society they rule over (in an almost medieval sense), and uniting Israel behind an unpopular government. They're not even, realistically, going to be able to play the "victim card" for some time to come.