Morch

As far as I understand, it's people who were previously labeled missing. They keep finding bodies out there. Also yesterday, a lone Hamas survivor who hid in an orchard.

I don't question your authenticity or your motives. There's no need to. When someone pops on these topics claiming they are on neither side, and do-not-know-much-about-it, and later on says no-I'm-actually-pro-this-or-that, and apparently not quite clueless as pretended - that sort of answers them questions. Again, nothing new. Been there, seen that. No creativity cookie points. The 'we' think? Let me spell it out for you, and others. When you lump together all 'pro-Israel' posters vs. some general 'we' that's one thing. When you do that while you're pro-Palestinian, what you're actually trying to do is co-opt everyone participating or reading the topic as being 'we', and vs. them 'pro-Israeli' posters. Again, very basic debate stuff. And again, no points. I have zero interest in where you're from. It's almost irrelevant. People here hold all sorts of view, regardless of their nationality. Some of the most critical USA commentary comes from Americans and so on. And you are most definitely trolling. Your posts display a rather more in-depth knowledge with related facts, history and so on, then you come on with them JAQ posts. All the more so when you're actually 'for' one of the sides. Not a particularly honest way of discussing things. Don't have an answer? Really? Do you realize that it's quite easy to review your posting history? The level of detail in which replied to other posts would suggest you're just dodging the question. No problems opining on the state of roads in the West Bank, the Palestinian elections and so on. It would be almost inconceivable that someone would label himself pro-Palestinian while at the same time claiming ignorance or not being able to articulate thoughts about their 'future'.

You obviously haven't understood then. Let me clue you in real quick: Poster A commented that civilians die at pretty much any war, so what is special about this case. Poster B replied with a one liner about 'intent and scale', apparently claiming it's different somehow this time. Poster A countered with a list of conflicts and casualty figures demonstrating the limited scale (in comparison) of the current conflict's death toll. Morch (that's me) missed poster A's comment and posted something in a similar spirit. Jeff (that's you) came online, looked for a trolling opportunity, and failed. Real easy stuff.

No, you got it wrong. Technically, each rocket launched (or pod of rockets) is by itself an instance of war crime. It doesn't matter whether it hit something or not. It's the-intention-that-counts sort of thing. As said, I'm sure some of Israel's actions will be found to be war crimes, that's pretty routine for any army and conflict. But I think that most will fall within the confines of law. There are all sorts of consideration - warning citizens, armaments used, value of target vs. risk to civilians etc. It's really not quite straightforward as people imagine it to be.

Turkey's policies, especially foreign and security seem to be more about Erdogan than the country's interest. His not-so-secret superpower is to get into fights and disagreements with everyone (in turn, there's a cycle thing). Right now he might be invested in Israel, but that could change very quickly. Also, he sometimes gets into one of them fiery speeches, starting a mess with someone in the region, then finds himself committed to a new course of action. I treat this as an anecdote, and perhaps a demonstration of how these notion of 'the Muslim world' don't hold.

"The terrorist attack was not a war crime. " Yes. It was. You're out there on your own with that one, Tonto.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_Saint_Porphyrius_airstrike#Airstrike "In an initial statement the IDF stated that Israeli fighter jets had hit a nearby command and control centre that was being used by Hamas to attack Israel". Israel seems to have taken responsibility for the attack. Whether or not it violated international law is investigated. I'd say that's a tad better than the Palestinians denials in the hospital case. Mistakes happen - question is how they are addressed.

Do you always fail to read the context of the posts you reply to? Always intentionally ignore what's actually posted. Here - in comparison with other conflicts in the region, the death toll is relatively low. Feel better now? Consider how many were killed in the Syrian Civil War. The Lebanese Civil war. The Iraq Wars. The Iraq-Iran wars. And so on. I think the word you're missing is proportion.

Why what?

No, it is not the same. Specifically targeting civilians is forbidden. That happened on the Hamas attack. Launching unguided rockets on civilian populations is also forbidden. Hamas did and does that. Civilians dying as a result of attack on enemy/military forces - depends on the circumstances, the means used and so on. Most of the IDF attacks would probably fit within existing legal frames. Not all, for sure. That's how international law works.

Making it a 'we' rather than 'I' is placing yourself as speaking for a group. It's a basic debate tactic. You ask a question as to what others think. How about sharing what you think first? How you see 'the future for Palestinians'? I'm not implying. I've already said you're dodgy on an another topic. New account, starting off with I-don't-know-so-much-about-this then continue to post either pro-Palestinian comments, or 'asking questions' - see here: Just Asking Questions. Since I've been on this forum for a long time, and took part in more topics like this than you have posts, I can safely say there's that strange feeling of Déjà vu. And before you try to make this about not having a reply etc. - see above. I've discussed these issues multiple times on multiple topics. It's not me, it's you.

Who is 'we'? Who do you claim to speak for? Or for that matter - what are your views on the 'questions' you raise? And, for that matter - why is it that you are not, apparently, much interested in what the Palestinian want? What the Hamas wants?

It is doubtful any Israeli government would react much differently. People don't seem to appreciate the impact this had on Israel and the Israeli public. Further more, the current right-wing government gets conditional war time support from one Centrist party, and less political hassle from others. If this was a Center-Left government, you can bet Netanyahu, and all the right wing parties would go on the (political) war path. Peace how? With Hamas? That's out the window. You want to blame it on Israel? Think if your country would make peace with terrorists after such an attack. Doubt it. Obviously, Hamas is also uninterested in peace to begin with, so not sure what you actually had in mind. Negotiations? On what? Giving in to Hamas demands? Rewarding the attack? You'll have to be more specific than that. The two state solution, which was already bleeding, to another bullet with the Hamas attack. I've no idea if that was one of Hamas's goals, but that's how it is. Try convincing Israelis that withdrawing from the West Bank is a good idea after 7/10. It's not that I'm opposed to a two-state solution, just being realistic as to where it stands. As usual, going on about Israel, not much condemnation or criticism vs. the other side.

The pay they get is not the problem. The debt references, as far as I understand, are either to Thai 'agents' in Thailand, or families mismanaging funds sent home. Or maybe something to do with some of them buying expensive ticket home at their own expense.

There are no polls offered supporting your 60% support for Palestine comment.

From your previous post: "that it is the result of typical US military tactics as advised/prescribed to IDF strategy". Sounded like you're trying to make into a USA/Israel thing. If you accept all armies do it, not sure what your point was.

Hamas Fails to Make Case That Israel Struck Hospital https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-fails-case-israel-struck-124003365.html "“The missile has dissolved like salt in the water,” Ghazi Hamad, a senior Hamas official, said in a phone interview. “It’s vaporized. Nothing is left.” The dog ate my evidence.

"Did the New York Times retract their mistake and offer an apology?" Editors’ Note: Gaza Hospital Coverage https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/23/pageoneplus/editors-note-gaza-hospital-coverage.html

Turkey Requests Hamas Leader to Leave: A Shift in Diplomacy Amid Rising Tensions https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/turkey-requests-hamas-leader-to-leave-a-shift-in-diplomacy-amid-rising-tensions/ar-AA1iHaeb Eying Gaza mediator role, Turkey cools Hamas ties, Erdogan restrains rhetoric https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/10/eying-gaza-mediator-role-turkey-cools-hamas-ties-erdogan-restrains-rhetoric Muslim world solidarity....Wonder what @thaibeachlovers would make of that.

The Russians do not kill civilians, then? Just an American/Israeli thing? Syrians don't kill civilians, perhaps? Hamas doesn't?

Civilians die in wars. Is that news to you?

Hamas routinely gets solid voter support on polls. One of the reasons no elections were held since is that the PA is afraid of losing again.

And I'm sure you could support this assertion with something. Or not.

As per intent, the IDF does not target civilians. If it was the death toll would have been way higher. As per scale - not to be callous, but this is small potatoes compared to other conflicts in the region and elsewhere.

You are shooting for a strong differentiation between Hamas and the Palestinian people. Hamas is a hybrid organization - it's a terrorist outfit, a political party and a provider of social services. On various opinion polls Hamas gets a hefty chunk of voter support - not a majority, but usually doing better than the competition. So the disconnect you're after (for obvious reasons) is not there. It doesn't make every Palestinian into a Hamas member/supporter, not even all Gazans. But the attempt to minimize Hamas role in Palestinian society and politics is simply unacceptable. Let me add this - following the initial Hamas attack there were mobs of Gazans pouring through to Israel, looting and murdering. Thousands. At the time hostages were brought into Gaza crowds followed vehicles carrying them cheering (and worse). There were celebrations all over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.