Guavaman

Except for Carden's office, one must still file a return to declare the remittance of pre-2024 income even though it is exempt from calculation of tax, so you still need his services to file using attachments to report what cannot be reported on the tax form.

In the video referenced above: Khun Pattharaphon Penjham, Senior Legal Officer at the Legal and Tax Collection Department, Pathum Thani Area Revenue Office, kindly joined our recent webinar to answer key questions. But the topic was a setup to get him to confirm the position taken by Expat Tax on cash in the bank. He did not exactly wholeheartedly make the point that only cash in the bank is acceptable. One might think that by limiting pre-2024 income this way, it would generate more business for tax advisory services; widening the meaning of pre-2024 savings would reduce the need for paid assistance on filing tax returns for years going forward.

Good approach, like getting a second opinion from another doctor. However, all of these differing opinions from 'tax doctors' is becoming like a surreal nightmare. While Carden's office refers to advice from TRD's legal staff, Expat Tax also claims that its' advice comes from TRDs' legal staff. Yet these two companies provide conflicting advice. For example, Carl Turner sets up the question of pre-2024 income as an issue limited to cash in the bank here: A Senior Legal Officer from Thailand’s Revenue Department Answers Expat Tax Questions Feb 5, 2025 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2_vGytBre2o Transcript 35:47 so next question we get this we get many questions on this how will pre 2024 cash 35:48 Pre-2024 income cash in the bank 35:53 in the bank so Savings in the bank before 2024 uh how will the savings be treated under the new rule so we're talking about cash in the bank so pre 2024 income or that was actually moved into Cash how is this treated uh for okay uh so called yeah the income cash uh saving in your bank the income that you earn before 2024 is not taxed if it remains offshore or is brought into Thailand in future calendar years yes is it clear yes but it's only a capital for bank accounts or cash accounts is exempt right clear yes the interest is still taxable right yeah yeah okay ex that uh you cannot apply this to the investment or pensions no right so so it's just for cash in the bank not pensions not pions not Investments yes yes fine that's clear right great that's really useful right fine and then the last question

I asked the TRD information call center 1161 what evidence is required to show pre-2024 assessable income that can be remitted exempt of taxation under P. 162. The official said: "hold the line, I will get the answer." The answer was: "You have to ask your local district tax office what evidence is required by them."

What is the monetary value of unrealized gains? If assets are converted into capital/cash, the value of the pre-2024 assessable income is the value of the cash; then one can calculate the original capital and the gains for tax assessment upon remittance. If this was done in 2023, then one can remit the cash with exemption from declaring and calculating for tax.

In the video it was asked and answered if one has assessable income that is below the filing thresholds, does one need to file? The tax return assessable income filing thresholds are (single) 60k/120k and (married combined) 120k/220k, as stated in Section 56 of the Tax Code. There are no thresholds for filing that incorporate deduction of expenses and allowances and the first 150k of the 0% tax band. The threshold referred to is for filing, not for taxation. For example, if you are filing single aged over 65, there is an exemption of 190k. If your assessable income remitted to Thailand is 150k, you still need to file -- because the filing threshold is 120k.

Department of the Treasury Technical Explanation of the Convention between the United States and Thailand which was signed on November 26, 1996. https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-trty/thaitech.pdf Article 20 (Pensions and Social Security Payments) Article 20 deals with the taxation of private (i.e., non-government) pensions, annuities, social security, and similar benefits. Paragraph 1 Paragraph 1 provides that private pensions and other similar remuneration paid in consideration of past employment are generally taxable only in the residence State of the recipient. The phrase “pensions and other similar remuneration” is intended to encompass payments made by private retirement plans and arrangements in consideration of past employment. In the United States, the plans encompassed by Paragraph 1 include: qualified plans under section 401(a), individual retirement plans (including individual retirement plans that are part of a simplified employee pension plan that satisfies section 408(k), individual retirement accounts and section 408(p) accounts), non-discriminatory section 457 plans, section 403(a) qualified annuity plans, and section 403(b) plans. https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans/plan-sponsor/types-of-retirement-plans Types of Retirement Plans Individual Retirement Arrangements (IRAs) Roth IRAs 401(k) Plans SIMPLE 401(k) Plans 403(b) Plans SIMPLE IRA Plans (Savings Incentive Match Plans for Employees) SEP Plans (Simplified Employee Pension) SARSEP Plans (Salary Reduction Simplified Employee Pension) Payroll Deduction IRAs Profit-Sharing Plans Defined Benefit Plans Money Purchase Plans Employee Stock Ownership Plans (ESOPs) Governmental Plans 457 Plans Multiple Employer Plans

More from my one hour phone consultation with the TRD call center today: Q: If I invested income 40 years ago into a life insurance annuity and now I am receiving return of original capital, is that receipt of the original capital exempt from Thai taxes upon remittance under P. 162A regarding pre-2024 income? A: Unless the life insurance annuity is with a Thai company, the RD considers that assessable income arises when you receive the annuity payment from the life insurance company regardless of the fact that you deposited the funds 40 years ago. Q: According to a prominent Thai tax advisory services company website, annuities are to be reported under income category 40(3); is this correct? Understanding Assessable Income from Intellectual Property and Annuities (Section 40(3)) Paragraph 3 of Section 40 of the Thai Revenue Code addresses income derived from intellectual property rights, annuities, and similar revenues. This category includes: Goodwill: Payments received for utilizing a business’s strong reputation or brand identity. Copyrights and Other Rights: Income from intellectual property such as copyrights, trademarks, patents, or other proprietary rights. Annuities: Ongoing payments from sources like private retirement plans, investments, or insurance products. Annual Payments: Regularly received fixed sums stipulated by a will or other legal agreements. Income from Juristic Acts or Court Decisions: Payments mandated by legal rulings, including settlements or other court-awarded compensations. https://www.expattaxthailand.com/understanding-assessable-foreign-sourced-income-in-thailand/ A: Assessable income from a life insurance annuity is to be reported under category 40(8) under "other," not under category 40(3), which only applies to court-ordered payments of compensation. The fact that you deposited assessable income into the annuity under a legal contract 40 years ago is irrelevant for Thai income taxation. The tax year when you receive the repayment of your principal is when you receive assessable income that is subject to taxation upon remittance to Thailand. The overwhelming influence of the recent RD Order P. 162A vis-a-vis the tax code and standard Thai taxation practices does not appear to have been taken into consideration by the call center official. P. 162A is only now undergoing it first test in the real world of the Thai remittance-based income tax system. Live & learn!

Normally, withholding tax complies with the Thai tax system for employers and banks for withholding tax on income derived in Thailand. Fudging the numbers is falsifying a report of payment of withholding tax to the RD that did not occur. Signing a tax return with known falsification of data is illegal. Slippery slopes ...

According to Carl Turner at Expat Tax, we can use FIFO for remittances. The TRD crypto handbook states that a taxpayer can use FIFO, LIFO, or cost averaging, but the same method must be used for an entire tax year.

Fellow TROT (Tax Resident Of Thailand), I suspect that the last time you went there, her penciled calculation based upon 480 per month multiplied by the exchange rate into Baht was her helpful attempt to cancel out your apparent tax liability (which shouldn't have appeared) on your foreign-sourced income by entering that amount at item 13 as withholding tax to cancel-out the tax liability that appeared at item 12. She entered the exact amount of your tax liability on item 12 into item 13, even though her calculation of your "withholding tax" exceeded the tax liability by almost tenfold. So she merely hacked the system by entering only the exact amount needed to cancel-out your apparent tax liability. Problem solved for her and for you, even though it might be difficult to explain to AN English-speaking expats, AN users, and such perfectionists. Look at item 13 Withholding Tax Here is the same item in unofficial translation of PND 90: Notice that item 13 is "withholding tax and tax credit." She gave you a tax credit for something -- ? the tax you paid in the UK @480 monthly. And that hack by her solved her problem of how to absolve you of an apparent tax liability -- she did her best to help you, even though she mistakenly entered your tax-exempt UK govt. pension into the PND 91 form that she never had to use if she understood the DTA. But she didn't, yet she did her best to hack the system to solve her problem of how to get rid of you while performing her duties correctly. Mai pen rai -- happy to help you, TIT! And for your nemeses on AN: Here is a place where a DTA tax credit can be accessed in the Thai income tax filing form PND 90 and PND 91 on the paper forms! PND 90 states "tax credit" in Thai.

I specifically tried to limit the scope of the inquiry to clear examples that could form the basis to infer the principle in the tax code: exempt from inclusion in tax calculation = not reportable = no need to file.

Unfortunately, it appears that your cost basis is 0; thus, if you sell it, it's all taxable capital gain!

Good luck trying to convince the TRD that your mothers' house is pre-2024 income! Good example.

Apologies for causing confusion. The example was only to illustrate the logic of the difficulty of trying to attribute a monetary value to pre-2024 income "savings," if not held in cash. It appears that some advisers/experts are stating that only cash in the bank qualifies as pre-2024 income, referred to by AN users as "savings." This appears to be a practical approach to implementing P. 162 exempting taxation on pre-2024 income. There must be some criteria to qualify as such and to form the basis for identifying that income when remitted subsequent to 1 January 2024. For example: If I had a portfolio of stocks and some real estate bought over the years and the value of my portfolio and real estate on 31 December 2023 was $xxx,xxx, all bought from income derived pre-2024. Then I sold some stocks and some land and remitted the funds into Thailand in 2024. How is the TRD to assess the taxable value of your remittances? The capital gains can only be calculated by referring back to your cost bases of pre-2024 income and the subsequent capital gains remitted. Very messy, and now you are reporting on remittances of capital gains in 2024, while trying to claim exemption due to the unassessed value of your stocks or land as of the 31 December 2023 deadline. Unless those assets were converted to cash prior to 1 January 2024, there is no way to establish the cost basis of your pre-2024 "income" that is to be remitted subsequently. This is the issue that Carl Turner is trying to address, and he claims that his advice is based upon close consultations with the TRD. The simplest and most practical approach is to limit the definition of pre-2024 income to "cash in the bank" as of 31 December 2023, despite the fact that no official definition of pre-2024 income exists in the tax code or regulations. This is only the first year of an experimental remittance-based personal income tax system; no court cases exist and no rulings exist regarding the source of remitted pre-2024 income, or the implications of P. 162A regarding the acceptable/unacceptable exemption from taxation of assessable income when remitted. The implications of exemption of pre-2024 "savings" under P. 162A will continue to reverberate for decades unless and until it is cancelled or superseded.

While all reports indicate a very user-friendly attitude of TRD assessment officers, a walk-in interview-based filing process with inspection of supporting documentation amounts to a pre-filing audit by someone who may or may not fully comprehend the implications of foreign-sourced income, P. 161/162, Royal Decrees, DTAs, etc. Sounds like a high-risk situation, depending upon your luck of the draw in which local tax officer "helps" you file, inspects your documents, applies their Thai taxpayer oriented guidelines, interprets DTAs, etc. An unsafe Thai tax zipline bungee jump!

I noticed that he asked the TRD expert a leading question or asked for confirmation on the video: "Cash in the bank -- correct?" with no clear affirmation by the Thai RD expert. This is not written anywhere, and appears to be a view promoted by Carl Turner.

I was testing to see if the advice from Carl Turner at Expat Tax that pre-2024 income only refers to cash in the bank, so I only asked if cash in a brokerage account was acceptable or not. I took advice from Baker McKenzie to convert investments to capital prior to 31 December 2023. It makes sense that pre-2024 income, that AN users like to call "savings" must exist in a liquid form. For example, my brokerage account held $1m worth of stocks on 31 December 2023, bought with pre-2024 income, then I sold it in 2024, so I don't need to pay tax on remittance of the capital with which I bought those stocks. Too difficult to assess the monetary value of those stocks. Problem with the definition of pre-2024 income. I did not expect that the call center representative could provide clear actionable guidance on that, so I focused on the concept of liquid assets (cash in the bank a la Carl Turner), probing to see if that concept could be extended to cash in a financial institution that is not a 'bank." As I stated to the TRD rep: I cannot find any official guidance on what constitutes "pre-2024 income" that is exempted under P. 162A. He did not provide any official reference to clarify the definition of "pre-2024 income" or evidence required to prove that income is "pre-2024 income" other than the usual bank statements, etc.

The real Skeptics were the roots of the Stoics, whose ideas are most compatible with the early Buddhist teachings.

I just spent an hour in a dialogue with a representative of the TRD on their hotline 1161 in Thai language. Several times the TRD representative clarified my question and said: "Please hold while I check the information for your answer." I have summarized our dialogue below. Q1: If I remit U.S. Social Security benefit income, is it exempt from taxation? A1: Remittance of U.S. Social Security benefit income is exempt from taxation. Q2: Do I need to declare remittances of U.S. Social Security benefit income and file a tax return? A2: There is no need to declare U.S. Social Security benefit income and no need to file a tax return for that income. Q3: If I have an LTR Wealthy Pensioner visa, do I need to file a tax return? A3: If you have an LTR Wealthy Pensioner visa, there is no need to file a tax return. Q4: If I remit assessable income derived prior to 1 January 2024, do I need to declare it and file a tax return? A4: If you remit assessable income derived prior to 1 January 2024, there is no need to declare it and file a tax return. Q5: What evidence is required to be kept in case of an audit of remitted income derived prior to 1 January 2024? A5: Bank statements and evidence of withdrawals and remittances are required to be kept in case of an audit of remitted income derived prior to 1 January 2024. Q6: Is a statement from a financial institution that is a stock brokerage acceptable evidence to show cash income derived prior to 1 January 2024 in a brokerage account as of 31 December 2023? A6: A statement from a financial institution that is a stock brokerage is acceptable evidence to show cash income derived prior to 1 January 2024 in a brokerage account as of 31 December 2023. There were more questions regarding gifts, but upon questioning regarding evidence required and taxability of offshore gifts, the TRD hotline representative advised to make an appointment online with a TRD specialist regarding the details of taxation of gifts involving remittances. The TRD representative was most polite and helpful, even though some questions went beyond his ability to clarify, and he then advised how to make an online appointment for in-depth consultation with a TRD expert (in Thai). These answers are from the TRD information call center, not from some tax officer out in the provinces.

This deserves to be saved by every expat Thai tax resident and shared widely amongst the expat community: In this video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpTYIjXCqE], Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand provides clear and actionable guidance on the issue of remitted foreign income that is (not) to be considered as assessable income for the purpose of calculation of income tax in Thailand and the implications for (not) obtaining a TIN and (not) filing a tax return for that income. This source states that it provides guidance to Thai taxpayers derived from consultations with the Thai Revenue Department. At 5:11, he says.... “So let's say you're a pensioner and you are living in Thailand 180 days or more. So you meet the criteria to be a Thai tax resident; then we look at what do you bring into Thailand. So if they bring in pension income, we have to look at where the pension income comes from. If it is from the US, so Social Security money -- um -- then that is not taxable. It's not assessable income, so for these people, if that's their only source of income, for your US listeners and viewers, if their only source of income is US social security, or military pension, or they worked for the US government, like a federal pension -- this is not assessable income. They don't need to file a tax return for that income. They don't need to do anything." At 8:37, he says.... “… so if you are -- if you have a Canadian pension, excellent! The Double Taxation Agreement shows that Canadian pensions are not taxable in Thailand; they are excluded -- they're only taxed in Canada. Okay so for those people -- if they've only got Canadian pensions they don't need to file a tax return; they don't need a tax ID.” Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand, Nov 29, 2024 Expats & Taxes in Thailand: Expert Advice You Need to Know! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEpTYIjXCqE

These statements by Carl Turner of Expat Tax Thailand provide the clearest guidance on the issue of remitted foreign income that is (not) to be considered as assessable income for the purpose of calculation of income tax in Thailand and the implications for (not) obtaining a TIN and (not) filing a tax return for that income. This source states that it provides guidance based upon consultations with the Thai Revenue Department. It cannot be stated more clearly.

In this post Por 161/2566 and Por 162/2566 era, it appears that the only way that current assessable income derived from a foreign source by a tax resident of Thailand -- Thai citizen or foreigner -- can become "savings" is to for that specific income to be remitted to Thailand and subjected to the assessment process -- self-assessment and/or assessment by the RD. If savings from current income that has been subjected to the tax process in another country is remitted 10 years from now, one will find it extremely challenging to obtain a tax credit or exemption for those particular funds. Thai tax residents need to segregate their offshore "savings" into separate accounts according to the source of funds to be able to prove the eligibility of those specific funds for exemption from calculation of tax in Thailand. The fungibility dilemma -- only solvable using digital funds with blockchain for tracking or some such system. On the other hand, if the RD moves to taxation of worldwide income irrespective of where it is derived, they could return to merely assessing reported income derived in a tax year by a Thai tax resident.

https://rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/america_t.pdf

This is a significant issue in dealing with filing a tax return. Reports from members who have filed online have said that no financial supporting documentation is required. On the other hand, the RD handout being provided to foreign taxpayers in Item 3 instructs the taxpayer to "Please attach a copy of your bank statement." With this, the RD will see incoming remittances into your bank accounts in Thailand, including both assessable income and income that is exempt from calculation of income tax, such as government pensions, social security, inheritances, etc. If this is done in person, the tax officer could screen out exempted assessable income items that have no place to be reported on a tax return.