jerrymahoney

Trump's claim that there were no obvious victims, while not helpful for him when presented to Justice Arthur Engoron during the trial, could be a matter of concern for appellate judges. "It is unusual, and that's one of the issues here," said white collar criminal defense attorney Paul DerOhannesian, who was not involved in the case. "We haven't really seen this type of proceeding before against a very large New York business." https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/

The trial court looks at it one way; an Appeals Court might look at it differently especially as to the kind of precedent the current Engoron ruling presents.

"NY Taxpayers" in the aggregate are not the traditional victims in the 63(12) statute case history.

AP’s review of nearly 150 reported cases since New York’s “repeated fraud” (63(12))statute was passed in 1956 showed that nearly every previous time a company was taken away, victims and losses were key factors. Customers had lost money or bought defective products or never received services ordered, leaving them cheated and angry. What’s more, businesses were taken over almost always as a last resort to stop a fraud in progress and protect potential victims. They included a phony psychologist who sold dubious treatments, a fake lawyer who sold false claims he could get students into law school, and businessmen who marketed financial advice but instead swindled people out of their home deeds. https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689

USA TODAY Update 21 FEB 2024 5:09PM ET But without a traditional victim in the fraud case, the appeals court has broad discretion to set a bond at perhaps a fraction of the total judgment. If Trump asks to post less than the full judgment, ( Mark Zauderer, a senior partner at Dorf Nelson & Zauderer, a business law firm) said a five-judge panel will consider the request. The panel will collect written arguments, giving Trump and attorney general's office each several days to file, and then typically reach a decision in about three weeks. The panel could set bond anywhere from zero to the full judgment. “The court would have discretion," Zauderer said. “That would then stop enforcement while the appeal was pending.” https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2024/02/21/trump-new-york-fraud-case-appeal/72660908007/

OK. So I have known who he was since mid-1970's then at a minimum. And in 1978 Trump made his first big Manhattan real estate splash with the Commodore Hotel morphed to Hyatt. As I lived on west 57th street this whole area was my daily stomping grounds.

As I've said multiple times: To me, the outcome of any of these criminal or civil legal predicaments is a side-show compared to the prospect of Trump again being President 20 JAN 2025.

Saudi holdings of US Treasuries surge to $131.9B in December 2023 18/02/2024 Saudi Arabia’s holdings of US Treasuries reached $131.9 billion in December 2023, up $3.8 billion month-on-month, new data released by the US Treasury showed. Accordingly, Saudi Arabia's holdings hit their peak level since February 2021, when they reached nearly $132.9 billion. https://www.argaam.com/en/article/articledetail/id/1706091 Or not. I lived in NY City in the 1970's and saw it first hand.

Sure. It's easy to root against Trump. Just like rooting for the Dallas Cowboys or Manchester United in their heydays. Whether Trump has any grounds for appeal or not, I do not offer my opinion -- only quotes from 'experts' in articles from my 'internet friends.'

And as they used to say when I lived in NY City about 50 years ago: Your opinion and a subway token gets you a ride.

I don't defend Trump. I am just highlighting arguments as to what basis Trump might have an appeal and quoting from the same (lying) Reuters article you did. And while you quoted above from the non-lying part of the Reuters article, from the lying part there was this: <Trump's claim that there were no obvious victims, while not helpful for him when presented to Justice Arthur Engoron during the trial, could be a matter of concern for appellate judges.>

No obvious victims as in the AP article. The DA in closing only described hypothetical victims.

I posted that same Reuters link 5 days ago: https://aseannow.com/topic/1320175-judge-orders-trump-and-companies-to-pay-nearly-355-million-in-civil-fraud-trial/?do=findComment&comment=18709742

Yes.

Oh.

My internet friends: The Associated Press, the NY Times, the Atlanta Journal Constitution, Reuters, the Washington Post(my apologies if I left any friends out) And these days I try to limit my posts to verbatim comments from the above suspects just because that that limits the time others expect me to spend on cross-examination

Sure Engoron can consult with (almost) all the judges he wants even those who handled 63(12) cases. However < An Associated Press analysis of nearly 70 years of civil cases under the law showed that such a penalty has only been imposed a dozen previous times, and Trump’s case stands apart in a significant way: It’s the only big business found that was threatened with a shutdown without a showing of obvious victims and major losses.> https://apnews.com/article/trump-fraud-business-law-courts-banks-lending-punishment-2ee9e509a28c24d0cda92da2f9a9b689 So no judge has experience with a 63(12) fraud case without 'obvious;' victims. And while Engoron can discuss with and get opinions from other judges about the possible grounds of appeal of his verdict, members of the appellate court have the only opinion that counts and THEY are off limits.

Model Code of Judicial Conduct: Canon 2 Rule 2.9: Ex Parte Communications February 14, 2020 Comment on Rule 2.9 [5] A judge may consult with other judges on pending matters, but must avoid ex parte discussions of a case with judges who have previously been disqualified from hearing the matter, and with judges who have appellate jurisdiction over the matter. https://www.americanbar.org/groups/professional_responsibility/publications/model_code_of_judicial_conduct/model_code_of_judicial_conduct_canon_2/rule2_9expartecommunications/commentonrule2_9/

Trump's civil fraud verdict appeal may hinge on 'no victims' defense February 17, 20246:56 AM GMT+7Updated 4 days ago <SKIP> (AG) James, a Democrat, brought her lawsuit in 2022 under New York Executive Law 63(12), which gives her office broad powers to file civil lawsuits for "repeated" or "persistent" fraud. This law historically has been used to protect consumers, investors and small businesses from scams, price-gouging and other predatory business practices. These cases typically involve many victims who lost large sums of money to businesses that exploited their poor financial savvy, according to legal experts. Defendants in those cases have run the gamut, from chicken suppliers to crypto exchanges and loan sharks. A common thread is often a large group of victims who were exploited because the did not know any better, according to legal experts. <SKIP> Severe penalties in a novel case like this one could potentially be met with skepticism on appeal, legal experts said. They could also prompt appellate judges to consider whether the attorney general overstepped her authority, according to Germain. "I think the judges are going to have to look carefully at what the powers of the attorney general are here," Germain said. "Are they so broad that any lie can put you out of business, even if nobody believed it?" Engoron has been unequivocal in rejecting Trump's arguments, saying in a September ruling in the case that Trump's claim about a lack of victims was "completely irrelevant." https://www.reuters.com/legal/trumps-civil-fraud-verdict-appeal-may-hinge-no-victims-defense-2024-02-16/

from the above CNN link: “In a relationship, ma’am, you don’t – particularly men, we don’t go asking back for anything. So you’re not keeping a ledger of things that you pay for versus the thing that she’s paid for,” Wade said. from ajc.com this morning: Others say they still view the cash response as fishy and too convenient, given that there are no records of her paying Wade or him depositing the money. Gillen seized on that during his questioning of Wade. “You don’t have a single solitary deposit slip to corroborate or support any of your allegations that you were paid by Ms. Willis in cash, do you?” he asked. “No, sir,” Wade replied. https://www.ajc.com/politics/analysis-the-testimony-that-could-shape-judges-decision-in-fani-willis-removal-fight/GBCBE7GYBRB5TI2IUGDSMWHCQY/

'Chicago Ray' walks back trucker NYC boycott, but says 'leave Trump alone' After calling on truckers to boycott driving to New York City in response to the civil fraud judgment that fined Trump more than $350 million last week, "Chicago Ray" has taken back his call to action. "I took that video down from Friday bc it went viral and my Grandson seen it on Tik Tok… I stand with Trump 100% Truckers for Trump," a trucker known as "Chicago Ray" wrote on X, formerly Twitter on Monday morning. Chicago Ray continued writing that drivers can make their own decisions based on their families and their careers. https://www.foxnews.com/us/chicago-ray-walks-back-trucker-nyc-boycott-says-leave-trump-alone NB I only responded here when I saw the comment to wit: What does the truckers protesting the $355 million Trump verdict have to do with the $355 million Trump verdict?

Independent truck drivers have more responsibilities and are not entitled to the same benefits as employees (company drivers). They are free to make their schedule, choose their work, and pick their equipment (depending on the company they sign up with) https://www.cloudtrucks.com/blog-post/independent-truck-driver

The Truck Driver Shortage in the US Continues posted by AJOT | Aug 03 2023 at 12:09 PM As the saying goes, “Houston, we have a problem,” and it’s a big problem at that! The US has a massive shortage of truck drivers. According to a recent study, more than 80,000 drivers are needed to make up a shortage in America this year. And unfortunately, this problem doesn’t look like it will be solved anytime soon. It is believed that by the year 2030, there will be a shortage of 160,000 truck drivers. This is a worrying figure considering we rely on the trucking industry. https://www.ajot.com/news/the-truck-driver-shortage-in-the-us-continues

Truckers for Trump to boycott driving to New York City after $355M fraud ruling 'Chicago Ray' rallying other truck drivers to refuse shipments to NYC in wake of fraud ruling Stepheny Price Fox News Published February 18, 2024 7:35pm EST A group of truck drivers who support former President Trump have announced they will not be driving to New York City as a means of expressing their disappointment with the civil fraud judgment that fined Trump more than $350 million last week. This all comes in response to Trump being barred from operating his business in New York for three years and being found liable for more than $350 million in damages in the civil fraud case brought against him, his family and the Trump Organization by New York Attorney General Letitia James. https://www.foxnews.com/us/truckers-trump-will-boycott-driving-new-york-city-after-355m-fraud-ruling

I don't know. I was only responding to the notion that a surety would accept as collateral properties that are not free-and-clear. MBS could always just offer Trump use an oil well as collateral.