way2muchcoffee

It's about time. Working expats get very little value for their tax dollars (or baht).

Yet, to me there's an awfully big difference between choosing to start using cocaine and choosing to drive on an interstate highway.

Certainly. But how about an abused child who, at 13 'chooses' to use cocaine to numb the pain? That child grows to be a 'half-man' addict. Shall we exercise compassion, or just get a rope and take him to the nearest hanging tree?

Alternatively, the wealthiest are those most willing to exploit others, engage in unethical or immoral behavior in the acquisition of wealth, or were simply born into a wealthy family. This in no way means that every wealthy person is unethical or immoral. However, accumulation of large quantities of wealth necessarily means others suffer for it, directly or indirectly.

Another point is that it is ridiculous to assume that a dirt farmer in Issan has anywhere near the opportunity that a child born of wealthy parents will have. The playing field is not even.

This whole nonsense about Thai driver's license is simply not true. Once in a while it works at some places. The vast majority of the time it does not. I pay more in tax to the Thai government than the monthly average Thai salary, while at the same time my monthly salary is but a pittance to many Thai people. In fact, a recent study, whose results are summarized in a Nation editorial, indicates that only 5 million Thai people pay any tax whatsoever. I've shown my work permit, tax id card, driver's license, speak Thai (both humbly and not so). It's really hit and miss. And it is offensive.

I must have been blessed on my most recent trip from BKK to Prachuab. I had not one, but two of these rare sightings in a single afternoon.

Hey, I agree with you. I am for a one world government where we are all paid the same salaries and there are no rich or poor. But that utopia has not arrived.

The devil is in the details, but in principle we may actually agree on something. Cheers.

Many restaurants in the US give discounts to local residents, and public transportation is generally cheaper for local tax payers as well. Residents often get discounts on airfare that are not available to tourists, etc. etc. etc. It is the way of the world.

Restaurants - never seen one in 35 years livng in 15 cities. Can't say that it doesn't exist somewhere though.

Public Transportation - I've heard of it for seniors, disabled, children, etc, but not for residents, at least not in Seattle. Again I don't claim that it may not exist elsewhere.

Airfare - Never heard of that.

Actually you are being rather disingenuous. You know that double pricing does not occur in Western countries to nearly the extent it does here. You also know that the kind of double pricing you see here would land people in jail or face massive lawsuits back in our home countries. I don't see the point of your arguments.

Don't forget to show your appreciation to the police if they are indeed willing to assist.

Yeah, the phrase is Thank You. I think some of you just likee the idea of giving people bottles of liquor and kissing rings, makes you fee like you are a stand in on The Sopranos. Why would you pay a public servant, clearly someone at bottom of the rung anyways, just for doing their job?

Perhaps because greasing wheels helps get things done. Perhaps because that is how it is done amongst Thais with means but no direct contacts? Never hurts to have a contact in the local BiB.

Double pricing is never based on race in Thailand. It is based on nationality always and usually on your length of time in Thailand, your documentation (driver's license etc.) and most importantly, as with anywhere in the world, your humility. My caucasian friends who have Thai citizenship never are asked to pay the foreigner price, I am rarely asked when I speak Thai humbly and show my drivers license. My Thai friends in California pay about 4 times the price I pay to attend university there. But, like here in Thailand, it is based on residency, not on race.

This may be true, but do your Thai friends in California pay more than Californians or US citizens visiting from other parts of the country for the following: food in restaurants, clothing, knick knacks, souvenirs, rent, utilities, public transportation, private transportation, condominiums, etc. etc. etc.?

Don't forget to show your appreciation to the police if they are indeed willing to assist.

I have a bad neighbor story to share. A few of years ago we moved into a shophouse. Shophouses are not wide enough to park anything other than a Jazz in front, without taking some of the neighbor's space. No problem, I just parked the truck a few blocks up the street at a secure parking lot. The neighbors were tuk tuk drivers. Lots of partying and noise, but genuinely friendly chaps. Since we didn't use the space in front of our unit they parked their tuk tuks there. No big deal. They were living there first. They appreciated our allowing them to park in front and occasionally would offer me a beer when they sat out in front drinking. I reciprocated on occasion. All was good.

Then they moved. Suddenly I was able to park in front of the unit. It was great. The next place over remained empty for several months until some new tuk tuk drivers moved in. These were the bad sort. All the other neighbors despised them for their inconsiderate dumping of garbage in the road, all-night parties every night, and hoardes of people sitting out front all day and night. Within 24 hours of them moving in they came over and demanded that we move the truck as they required the space in front of their unit. Not only that, they required the space in front of our unit as well. We could understand their request as their vehicles were their business. We offered to rent them our space for half the cost we would incur in paying for parking up the street. They flat out refused. They then threatened my wife with violence, and further indicated that my truck was at serious risk of damage if it wasn't moved within 12 hours. Not knowing how to respond as there were about 15 people living in there, we let the neighbors know what was going on. They sympathized, but there was little they could do to help. The owner was of no use. So I moved the truck elsewhere in order to avoid escalating the problem. After about a month of fear and hatred, the bad neighbors who, having won the battle, proceeded to pile garbage in front of our place daily, blare music at 2:00 am with speakers up against the wall of our bedroom, and continued making rude and threatening comments to my wife.

So we decided to move. The owner of our unit then tried to address the problem with the neighbors more seriously, probably because we are good tenants. She failed to get any results. She then offered to lower the rent if we would stay. But by this time we had had enough of the abusive neighbors and just wanted out. Fortunately, one of the good neighbors across the street found us a townhouse just a few blocks away in a secured moo baan, with parking. The cost was only 2000/month more, but the place is easily 5 times nicer and more comfortable. Life is much better now. Every christmas we give a gift basket to each of our previous friendly neighbors. We maintain good relations with them.

So the lesson here is that there are good neighbors and bad. If you are unlucky enough live near the bad ones just move, if you are renting. If you own the place, perhaps rent it out and buy another if that is within your means. Otherwise things can be extremely unpleasant, dangerous even.

It does seem to be a racist policy to pay the local Thai workers far less than the Australian workers who design and manage the facility. When will the Thais be compensated fairly? A disgrace...

Foreign educated Thais command salaries equivalent to foreign workers. The higher compensation is about education cost, perceived expertise, experience, etc. It also has to do with opportunity cost. Employers hiring foreign staff are playing in the international market, and must provide decent salaries to attract a foreign worker. If the Thai worker is getting less, it is not the fault of the foreigner. Look to the Thai management/owners for an increase in Thai wages.

Also bear in mind that the average Thai can visit their family for not more than $100 all in. A foreign worker would incur costs in the neighborhood of $5000 all in. That's a factor of 50. Moreover, foreign workers in Thailand incur visa/work permit costs, and have far fewer benefits compared with local Thais working in a comparable position. Then there is the foreign 'surcharge' on just about everything.

Hold on 'way2muchcoffee' I lived in the UK for many a year well below the average wage with no chance of bettering my income other that longer hours or a second job. That applied to both myself and my exwife. Not once did we ever concider enhancing our life by illegal means, prostitution is one, but here in Thailand it seems second nature in one way or another. I blame this on Thai males who, I find, to be lazy and always looking for the easy option ie the wife, or g/f, to support him.

The fact of the matter is that you did have opportunities to improve your life, or you wouldn't be writing on this forum today. What more can I say?

The difference is that you can get another job or extra hours in Western countries. Part time jobs are available. A typical job in the West does not demand 10 hours per day and 6-7 days per week paying only 5000-7000 bt/month. What's that, $200? Try supporting a wife and two kids on that kind of money. Try sleeping on the floor every night for your entire life. Try making the choice between food on the table or school books or medicine for your children. Not just once, but every day for all of your life. This the plight of many, many Thai people. The Thai males I know whose wives work or worked in a bar certainly don't like it. They resent it like hel_l. But they do what they do in order to ensure the survival of themselves, their primary family, and their extended families.

And I still disagree..

No harm, no foul. We are all entitled to our opinions. I can respect that. I would, respectfully, suggest that you try walking a mile in a low-income Thai man's shoes before you castigate them. Feel the poverty, with no hope of betterment. No way out. No chances.

This is where we Westerners fail in our empathy. We, as Westerners, always have options and hope. This simply isn't true for the lower-class Thais. Poverty has harsh consequences. It leads to behaviors that may otherwise be viewed as immoral or low. I'm not sure that any Westerner, no matter how modest their upbringing, can truly comprehend the feelings, passions, sacrifices, choices, and pain in the daily life of the poor of Thailand.

I can't even imagine a life without hope. For this reason I try to make allowances for the behaviors I see in those who are in this situation.

How many decent English girls would accept that her beloved Englsih bf is a kept man and she is content to live off the proceeds of her boyfriend's "stipend" from his older woman? About as many as decent Thai men would accept their Thai gfs living off the proceeds of their relationship with an old foreigner...

Not a good comparison at all. The income disparities alone render your points invalid. I've met several 'decent' Thai men, of low income, who allow their wife to work in bars and take customers. Different culture. Different expectations. Different economic hardships. Doesn't mean the men are bad, or the women either. It is what it is. Borne of necessity, or at least of the desire for a slightly higher quality of life. Seems almost natural to me here. Back in our home countries it would be decidedly unnatural, as back home everyone has the opportunity to make a 'livable' wage that provides at least some of the luxuries that we take for granted as basic needs.

Having been in this situation a couple of times the answer, on each occasion I told them. As the messenager I've also been shot for this - not literally yet I might add . It doesn't make life easy for you, but at least you can hold your head high.

You may lose the guy's friendship as he resents you for knowing and telling him, and you may lose the "friendship" of others and be alienated. But if that's the kind of people they are have you really lost anything, and do you really want to be part of their world anyway?

Much more important to be able to live with yourself, than contributing to lies and deceit, cheating another just so you can "fit in" and belong". When I look back I'm happy with my decisions.

Rare indeed is the time you should put loyalty above integrity, and those that ask you to do so, are perhaps not worthy of your loyalty anyway.

Right on. Nice post. The idea of not helping another because it may (or may not) cause you inconvenience is anathema to me. If your wife loves you, and she has any moral fiber then she will accept your actions. If others in the family want to be liars and cheats it isn't your responsibility to protect them. Be honest. Be forthright. You need not hide your actions if you are morally and ethically correct. If the rest of the family shuns you, well, then it means they are not particularly good people. You can shun them just as easily as they shun you. And you will be right in doing so. Probably they will lose more in the long run.

I grow tired of reading weak posts, written by weak people who refuse to do what is right simply because there may be personal hardship involved. Bear in mind that most Thai people wouldn't hesitate to share the bad news if the roles were reversed. Who is the more ethical?

What I am saying is that i think the country was better off with Thaksin inpower than since. That is my point.

Can you be detailed and specific please? If this is your point, please tell us why you think this is true.

Perhaps if we debate real issues, interpretations, beliefs, and ideas we might actually learn from one another.

classic example of store ripoff ( lotus)

we bought a 5 piece bed set ( sheets and pillow cases) as the package said

we got home, found 2 sheets, 2 pillow cases.

complained the next time we were there, their story, the piece of cardboard packing was the 5th item in the package

Where else but Thailand? I bet they were serious too?

Just told my wife (thai) this story. She agreed with Lotus!

Surangw

Are you sure there wasn't one long, sausage-shaped, pillow case in the pack? That is pretty standard with the 5-piece bed linen sets sold in Thailand. 2 sheets, 2 regular pillow cases, 1 sausage pillow case.

Obviously there was self-serving motivation amongst most of the decision-makers responsible for the overthrow of the Thaksin regime. Most of the footsoldiers, however, were motivated by their beliefs, and by the pu yais they trust to make decisions for them.

This is not unlike the redshirt movement. Many of the footsoldiers of the redshirts are motivated by the inequities in Thai society and their desire for a better deal, for all Thais. Many of these footsoldiers are also motivated by the pu yais they trust to make decisions for them. Most of their leadership, however, seems to be motivated by money and power.

It is, as it always has been.

Hmm. I think most things worth apologizing for revolve around bad decision-making. There can be any number of reasons for this. Here are some: 1) Incomplete information at the time of the decision, 2) inaccurate information, 3) a forced decision where there was no time to contemplate consequences, 4) a situation where any decision causes harm, 5) a mistake or misunderstanding, and the list goes on. Deliberately harming another is something else altogether.

hearing a thai say sorry is extremely rare,but i like the idea of cause and effect and that to say sorry implies "guilt".........we can all do with not carrying so much guilt around and seems to be part and parcel of any christian upbringing.

I find that apologizing reduces any guilt I may carry over my poor actions or decisions.

The usual hysterical and inaccurate rant from someone who just can't bear to think Thaksin ever had a mandate.Not worth responding to as all the points have been covered umpteen times before.

The usual hyberbole and ad hominem attacks that fail to address anything, but serve only to inflame and incite. Please address points and do not attack the poster.

Red marching here, yellows marching there, governments neutered by rabbles, Sondhi shot, PM's car assaulted, Cambodians offering shelter to ex-PM's who are running around the world, SET running up and down on obvious rumours, FDI plummeting, trains on strike, FDI held up due to constitutions being spirited every few years, Newin holding all the aces.

You couldn't sit in a dark room and write a saga like this in a thousand years of trying.

....Is there a plan other than politicians/governments hanging on by their fingernails?

Christ. Stated like that, I feel saddened and depressed.

Discussing what may have happened is subject to conjecture.

Indeed.

I may be right, I may be wrong, but I don't think my "story" is to fanciful to be impossible.

Not at all fanciful. Entirely plausible. Same with scorecard's analysis. As nearly as I can tell it could have gone either way. Or perhaps it would have gone in a way that nobody today can possibly predict. We'll never have the opportunity to find out.

The reality is 4 or 5 years of hassle, and the outcome is ultimately, unfortunate; for Abhisit and the country. With the added bonus of no real end in sight to this mess.

Yes. Very unfortunate.

A woman scorned and an Asian losing face with a 2bn USD caveat. Thaksin will hang on until the absolute bitter end.

Agreed. Hopefully it won't be too bitter. Unfortunately, my gut is telling me that this won't go well for Thailand at all, particularly in light of other unmentionable events that are certain to happen in the not so distant future.