way2muchcoffee

Many schools have been closed. The school I work for was closed for a week. Canceling classes poses enormous difficulty for students, parents, teachers, administrators, and all other associated staff. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed the break, but the courses I teach have suffered. I reckon the government is doing what they can. The public outcry requires them to do something, but what exactly are they to do?

It seems to me that anyone withholding this type of information is a willing accomplice to murder or attempted murder. End of story.

July 7th & 8th are both Buddha days (Assana Bucha and Khao Pansa), which is great! I love Buddha days, but that leaves a lonely Monday of work in the middle of a holiday sandwich. Obviously everyone at my workplace is hoping for a gov't announcement liberating them form their grindstone. Certainly if they don't call it off we'll see an epidemic of epic proportions, and I fear for the health of my fellow works.

So, what do ya think? What are the chances that the powers that be will see the light and make us all very happy little expats?

The school I work for has the 6th off as well. My director told me that the 6th was to be a semi-national holiday to promote and encourage domestic tourism. Other than that I have no official word or source.

It's difficult to do, but try to imagine a role reversal. Your father needs some kind of major surgery and doesn't have any health care. You, fortunately, have married into a wealthy family. Where you make $30,000 per year, your wife is pulling well over $300,000. While you have maybe $5,000 in savings, your wife have has $500,000. You do have siblings, but they have kids, low end jobs, and are struggling just to make ends meet. Would you consider asking your wife to help out with the medical costs or would your father end up going untreated?

Now that the current crisis is over, Abhisit and his government should concentrate their efforts on cooling down the current political climate further by taking the following actions:

(1) Remove Kasit and all other PAD members from office;

(2) Bring the PAD leaders to justice - not simply a "slap on the wrist", but reasonable prison terms for their crimes

Now if they can actually do this, rest assured, they'll receive nothing but commendation and recognition from the Thai people. The Democrat Party have a lot to gain and not much to lose here. So why not take advantage of the situation?

As for the Thaksin question, well, I'd say leave him alone (for now). Give him time to ponder about what went wrong in his most recent quest for glory...

Thank you for reading.

Agreed again, except in regards to Thaksin. I say take his money, or at least an amount that equates to fair taxes on the ShinCorp transaction.

Deputy Prime Minister Suthep Thaugsuban << The Democrats have got to get rid of him. Time for him to retire and go about his business. He has never been a popular politician amongst most Thais, except maybe in his own hometown of Surat Thani. With Suthep out of the picture, the Democrats might actually win the next election. Although highly 'influential', he's nothing but a liability to the rest of the Democrat Party.

Agreed.

Guys the woman I know who smsed me yesterday about the fact that they are not allowed to go home today is not picking up the phone my other thai pro-red who went there also don't pick up the phone, actually the phones are plain dead.... EVERYTHING you have seen on TV about the REDs here and there probably was staged to discredit reds, and I can say people that I know NEVER GOT PAID for being there it was their own decision, to stand up for their rights, they were all standing near the goverment house.

Don't you think it was so easy to discredit reds by dressing up other people as reds and allow them to do whatever for a day or 2, to then have rights to wipe the real reds away????

Justy think about it...

Pattaya was waaaay too staged up ( IMHO ) it was made to that ALL who attend the summit would see how BAD are the reds. For this the security allowed reds inside, and if you look at it all from a different angle you will see that all looks strange and really fishy.

1) Possibly they are jamming mobile phone signals in the area? That wouldn't be out of order or impossible, but it would make communications between security personnel a little more challenging. Mobile phone batteries dead seems more likely.

2) I don't believe Pattaya was staged at all. I think it was just a major cock up by security planners. Too much face was lost over the incident. Most likely the security personnel had no orders to use force. So they didn't and were consequently overrun.

Are you joking? The leadership of the UDD has called for attacks on the legitimately elected Prime Minister and the government. Those attacks were carried out in violent fashion. A convicted fugitive is calling for a revolution and is fomenting insurrection against a legal government. Hear their side of the story? fuc_k that. That said, when alltraces of Thaksin, TRT, PPP, PTP have been seperated from the legitimate concerns of the great many peaceful "red" faction, I will be amongst there strongest supporters.

I couldn't agree more.

Now that the major battle is 'apparently' over, here come the apologists and conspiracy theorists.

I have no doubt that there were questionable actions and decisions made by security forces during the course of the day that would make the government look bad and would therefore be covered up if possible. I also have little doubt that there were far more of these questionable actions and decisions made by protesters, most of which will also be will also be covered up by the red shirt leadership. It was basically a war on the streets of Bangkok.

Freddie - please read the last sentence of my post. I believe I clearly stated that air resistance could not be neglected. Moreover, there would be a zero velocity of the bullet only if it was fired vertically. There is only one true vertical and an infinite number of non-vertical trajectories. But hey, what do I know. I simply provided the basic physics. A couple of other posters after me provided a somewhat more detailed physics of ballistics and weapons. The poiny isn't important enough to rush out and do the research on this particular topic....

Let's just be glad that there wasn't a slaughter, whatever it was the military was using.

Nothing needs to be proven.

So if I accuse you with an as yet unfounded allegation you are automatically guilty?

I'm glad I don't live under your legal system.

Oh, hang on, I do, I'm in Thailand!

You conveniently left out the rest of my post. Most disingenuous of you. I specifically stated that what he did in this incident was not technically illegal at the time, hence no court. Or do you dispute that tax laws were changed by the Thaksin government on capital gains from the sale of public companies just prior to the sale of ShinCorp, and that he subsequently earned upwards of 70 billion Baht tax free?

There will however be a court case about this. I'll be interested to see what happens to all that dosh.

This should be the big worry now. The military has won the day in Bangkok. They will ultimately be able to mop up. But what about upcountry? That is another matter entirely.

How can acts of corruption be proven before a court verdict is delivered?

His most blatant act of corruption and the straw that broke the back of public opinion was not even illegal. He merely changed tax laws a couple of weeks prior to selling a portion of Thailand's telecom industry to Singapore and thus walked away with 70 billion Baht tax free. Nothing needs to be proven.

About the bullets fired in the air coming down and killing...If I remember my A Level Physics, F=MA (Force = Mass * Acceleartion).

As acceleartion is gravity, that's about 10m/s/s. What's the mass of a spent bullet (remember its only the lead bit at the end - at worse stell jacketed) - 8g perhaps (that's 9mm at about 100-150 grains). So the maxmum force would be something like 0.8 Newtons.

If it hits point down (which is unlikely as it would be spinning and tumbling) the diameter is 9mm, so the area is about 64mm2.

This all works out to a little under 0.1777875 PSI - it takes at least 1 PSI to break skin, so its doubtful it could realy cause any damage at all.

Feel free to correct my physics - its been a while (like 20 years ).

On another note, could Thaksin be prosecuted (in his absense I guess) for treason now (Webster's definition)?

Actually your physics is incomplete, sorry. The relevant factors would be:

1) The pressure of the bullet (force per unit area). a relatively small force exerted over a small area can do considerable damage.

2) The impulse (change of momentum). When fast-moving objects are brought to rest in a very short time this can also result in great damage.

3) The work (the average force through a distance) required to slow the bullet. The body is responsible for the work involved in decreasing the kinetic energy of the bullet. If this occurs over a short distance the forces can be quite large.

4) You may also remember that in absence of any air resistance a projectile will have the same speed striking the ground as it does when it leaves the muzzle of the gun. Actually it would strike the ground at a slightly higher speed due to the difference in heights of the muzzle and the ground. Of course air resistance cannot be neglected in the case of a bullet, but there it is.

Explain. I see thousands of (relatively) unarmed protesters on one side, and hundreds of heavily armed soldiers on the other. The only diffrence might be reluctance from soldiers to actually carry out order, but their leaders dont seem to share that reluctance. You have all the potential for hundreds killed right there. There is an incredible bloodlust by some posters on this forum. You all blabber on about how this would be cracked down in a western country. Guess what, protesters shot in this manner would see the press go ballistic against the responsible for shootings. And thats whoever holding the gun, and orders that gun to be fired and in extent the government in power. Its disproportional use of force, no less.

I'm not so sure disproportionate force is being used at all.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...y-protesters-PM

4 soldiers shot by protesters: PM

Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva addresses on TV, denying death report in the morning. He added that 23 soldiers and 47 protesters were injured. Four soldiers suffered bullet wounds.

The Nation

Here is the Breaking News you are referring to.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/breakingne...rs-to-surround-

Former Pheu Thai MP incite protesters to surround King Power head office

Phayup Punket, former Pheu Thai Party MP, incited protesters to surround the King Power duty free head office on Soi Rangnam Monday morning.

The Nation

Incite means to provoke or urge. Nothing in the report states that red shirt supporters have followed the suggestion.

I think when sides are as deeply entrenched as they are now there are only two general solutions.

1) They come together, make compromises and sacrifices, and move forward.

2) They remain entrenched and foment discord until widespread violence ensues.

OK, I will try again. Here's my new advice to you - assuming you are still in power as I write this, and assuming of course, that you are now ready to start listening to me

1. Kasit must go (you now have another opportunity to do it, in the interests of reconciliation)

2. You must agree to liaise with the opposition regarding the amnesty bill

(basically the 111 banned politicians to have their political rights reinstated, draw a line in the sand and give blanket amnesty to all protest leaders except any who can be directly implicated in any criminal activity, and also to the pending LM & Computer crime cases)

3. Initiate a complete round of political reform, including using the 1997 constitution as the starting point, but also including amendments to the LM and Computer Crime laws, looking at and concisely defining the role of the privy council, implementing a strict permit system for future protests (to put some rules in place as so that the never ending supply of gullible and bloody minded protesters can be kept in check otherwise no government will ever be able to do anything) - surely there are enough great unbiased minds in Thailand that can come up with something appropriate, but if there are still contentious items then they will need to go to a referendum

4. Set a strict, but realistic timetable for the above political reform process, including a date for the next election to be held as soon as the new rules are in place.

5. Request that all parties/sides/colors take a step back from protesting, and invite them to instead get involved in the political reform process.

6. Strictly implement rule of law without fear or favour

7. Thaksin???? - I'm thinking that he is a special case and a negotiated settlement needs to be reached with him, but who does the negotiating? Off the top of my head, the best solution I can come up with is a special act of parliament requiring say 75% approval.

(it will mainly need to be a financial settlement, however the amount might depend on whether he enters binding commitments relating to the extent of his future political involvement).

As usual, its just general rambling to get it off my chest, and the real experts would need to work out ways to facilitate the legalities.

Actually LevelHead, we finally agree on something. Most of what you have posted on these various threads I disagree with. However, with this one post you have articulately stated a solution that I generally agree with. It is rather similar to something I posted yesterday. Here were my suggestions:

Thoughts on Possible Solutions (Listed in Order)

1) The current government agrees to step down after necessary 'bipartisan' business is completed.

2) All members and leaders of protest groups are exonerated.

3) The constitution is rewritten to abolish the party dissolution clauses, with all sides taking part in the process.

4) Both sides agree to not pardon politicians previously found guilty of electoral fraud, but the ban is rescinded for leaders of banned parties who were not directly involved in the activities which led to party dissolution.

5) Laws are enacted to ensure that any politician found guilty of vote buying in the next elections is jailed.

6) Laws are put in place to severely criminalize public takeover of government facilities during protest movements.

7) Thaksin's money is returned minus the tax that would have been withheld had the tax laws not been changed just prior to the sale of ShinCorp.

8) Both sides agree to accept the victor or coalition party that wins.

9) Both sides agree to not exonerate Thaksin for his criminal behavior.

10) All agree that the Privy Council is an institution that is above politics as it functions directly for the monarchy.

11) The military agrees not to meddle.

12) Elections are held.

I've been following this rather closely. Here are my thoughts:

The PAD Protests

I think the PAD demonstrations were an appropriate response to issues of government corruption, and the single-minded attempt to exonerate Thaksin by the government of the time - at least in the early days. During these protests the government of the time made a misstep, people got hurt. Around that time the red shirts arrived. More violence and the confrontation escalated. The PAD became militant. More people were hurt. Once the PAD had resorted to violence they lost the moral high ground. It is understandable that they did so, in the face of grenade attacks etcetera, but nevertheless, this was the end of their moral triumph. Ultimately the airport was closed. This was an unbelievably bad decision.

The Democrat Ascendancy

After being mostly silent, with a few notable condemnations by Abhisit regarding both the airport takeover and the way in which Puea Thai MP's were hounded by PAD protesters with handclappers, the democrats got their chance to govern. At the time of the power transfer it was neck and neck as to who would form the next government. The Puea Thai was offering 50 mil to any MP who would switch to their side, the Dems had military backing (and perhaps the quiet backing of more 'elevated' houses). It was a no holds barred race, and the Dems won the day. Since that time they have governed remarkably well in my opinion. A fragile stability was being established and the country's reputation was being rebuilt.

Thaksin Bites Back

Seeing the effectiveness of the PAD protests the DAAD/UDD decided that they should do likewise. Fair enough. In the first couple of days they were peaceful and portions of their message were righteous. However, they insisted on supporting the criminal Thaksin. That was, and still is, an indefensible position. Moreover, they demanded resignations of privy council members. That simply isn't going to happen. Nevertheless their desire for a more equitable system is understandable and laudable, despite what other motives some of their leaders may

Blue Shirts and The Summit

Whoever paid these blue shirt guys sorely miscalculated. They should never have been in Pattaya to begin with. The government should have ensured stability for the summit by bringing in 20,000 soldiers and 10,000 police to maintain order. Violence ensued, the summit was canceled, and a state of emergency declared. The red shirts are equally to blame. They should never have been there. The damage has been done. Thailand and the Thai people will suffer.

Overall Thoughts

Nobody is really in the right here. The extremists have ruled the day for far too long. The damage to the country has been severe, and it's not over yet. Both sides need to be reasonable and willing to negotiate. Sadly this seems unlikely to happen. And even if it were to happen what is there to negotiate really? I see no real solutions. For now all we can do is watch and wait and hope.

Thoughts on Possible Solutions (Listed in Order)

1) The current government agrees to step down after necessary 'bipartisan' business is completed.

2) All members and leaders of protest groups are exonerated.

3) The constitution is rewritten to abolish the party dissolution clauses, with all sides taking part in the process.

4) Both sides agree to not pardon politicians previously found guilty of electoral fraud, but the ban is rescinded for leaders of banned parties who were not directly involved in the activities which led to party dissolution.

5) Laws are enacted to ensure that any politician found guilty of vote buying in the next elections is jailed.

6) Laws are put in place to severely criminalize public takeover of government facilities during protest movements.

7) Thaksin's money is returned minus the tax that would have been withheld had the tax laws not been changed just prior to the sale of ShinCorp.

8) Both sides agree to accept the victor or coalition party that wins.

9) Both sides agree to not exonerate Thaksin for his criminal behavior.

10) All agree that the Privy Council is an institution that is above politics as it functions directly for the monarchy.

11) The military agrees not to meddle.

12) Elections are held.

What explains yours? Marriage to an Isaan woman?

Not cool at all rixalex. You're crossing multiple lines with comments like that.

I think it is not top secret that Isaan is the area which likes Thaksin most.

So what is wrong with that idea that hardcore red farangs are most probably married with an Isaan woman and hear the propaganda there?

I simply find it inappropriate to bring other people's wives into a debate in a derogatory way. Call me old-fashioned.

What explains yours? Marriage to an Isaan woman?

Not cool at all rixalex. You're crossing multiple lines with comments like that.

The words "flee" and "fled" don't appear in the article or the title of the article. The word "flee" only appears in the name that Maejo Man used to refer to the link to the article. The title of the article is "Thaksin's family leave Thailand".

No they don't, but here's a screen capture of the BKK Post online edition. Just click on the image and you will see a full-sized version of the online front page. The headline states: 'Thaksin's Kids, Potjaman Flee'.

never mind

I disagree. Most forms of dancing are somewhat sexually provocative or explicit. These include famous showgirl places lik Moulin Rouge and Vegas. Many specific dances and styles range from hinting at sex to exuding it. These include Tango, Salsa, Rumba, Hip Hop, Fly Dancing, Belly Dancing, ballet, slow dancing, Pole Dancing, and many more. It doesn't matter to me, but to deny that there are sexual elements to dancing just isn't correct.

Obviously they should never have to be a place where they can be victims of child sexual predators. It is not worth risking a life even if the chance is small.

I guess we should keep them out of schools, churches, summer camps, shopping malls, anywhere out in public, or even in the home for that matter. There is no place that exists where there is zero chance of a child falling prey to a sexual predator.

I do find the public display of sexually provocative dances by children to be in bad taste, but not morally reprehensible, and don't believe it should be banned. I think children dancing is normal and beneficial for them, and that they should not be prevented from doing so. Times change, the culture changes, and the behaviors of children reflect primarily the present attitudes of society.