TroubleandGrumpy

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

I suggest you use the word "avoid" and not "evade."  One is legal, the other is illegal, and can not be discussed. 

 

Currently, gifting is legal, and tax free, and a way to "avoid" paying this tax.  Yes, it's not in the spirit of the legislation, but that's the Thai government's problem, a problem I am sure they will address in 2025 when they see how gifting is being used as a tax avoidance strategy.

 

On that basis, I encourage members to have a Plan B strategy because I have a feeling you will be needing it in the future.  I can see a tweak in the policy whereby gifts will be taxed, or the money to the Thai missus will be deemed an income and she will be taxed on it. 

I agree - and in the future the Thai Govt will address the issue. But I think they will not remove the gifting rule, but they will probably reduce it. After all, 20 million baht is a ridiculous amount that onyl the wealthy would utilise - which is of course why it was introduced in the first place. 

1 minute ago, KhunHeineken said:

Yes, but my point being, the chances of the Thai government taxing ATM withdrawals, regardless if a debit or credit card is used, is near impossible.

Not impossible - but extremely unlikely. There must be millions of ATM transactions in Thailand every day - IMO there is currently no system to differentiate and report to the TRD those made by each and every Expat.  They can report all the transactions made using an ATM from a Thai bank of course, but not for every ATM transaction from overseas banks - other than it total amounts - certainly not for each and every person. And even if they could, TRD would then have to sift through all those records to find those transactions just for Expats who are tax residents and those for tourists and those for Thais who have an overseas bank account.  

Just now, TroubleandGrumpy said:

That is why most people are not looking at Gifting as a method to evade income taxes on income earned overseas, but thery are looking to avoid being questioned by Somchai at the local Thai TRD about the amount of money (not income) they have remitted into Thailand to themselves.  Trying to remit assessable income into Thailand by Gifting and evade taxation liability is not what most people (like me) plan to do. We are just looking at ways to avoid having to deal with the Thai TRD bureacracy - especially during the first few years. 

I see now why some people have got somewhat angry about people discussing gifting - they see that as a way of evading taxes. But if the gift is from 'savings' or any other form of non assesable income, then the reason to do it is to evade dealing with the TRD bureacracy - legally.   

2 minutes ago, JimGant said:

A gift tax is what's paid on gifts in excess of 20k to family, 10k to non family. What we're dancing around here is, whether or not a gift makes an otherwise remittance of assessable income -- no longer assessable, and thus now tax free. Sound too good to be true? You bet.

 

That's why I think the following from the Personal Income Tax guide still applies:

That is why most people are not looking at Gifting as a method to evade income taxes on income earned overseas, but thery are looking to avoid being questioned by Somchai at the local Thai TRD about the amount of money (not income) they have remitted into Thailand to themselves.  Trying to remit assessable income into Thailand by Gifting and evade taxation liability is not what most people (like me) plan to do. We are just looking at ways to avoid having to deal with the Thai TRD bureacracy - especially during the first few years. 

9 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

There is still an outstanding question on this point - "Is any Income earned whilst a Thai Tax Resident taxable if I remit it in a year when I'm not Tax Resident"

 

My gut feel was No as you wouldn't be completing a Thai Tax Return (unless you had Thai sourced income > 60K), but others feel it is Taxable as it was earned whilst you were a Thai Tax Resident. 

 

No definitive answer but I'll be Non-Tax Resident in the year I get & remit the 25% Tax free lump sum from my pension just in case.  

IMO it is only taxable when the income is remitted and that it becomes taxable income if you are then at time of remittancxe a tax resident.  Or is Thailand going to apply back-taxes to the income of anyone retiring in Thailand in 2030 for the 6 years from 2024 to 2030?? Obviously not and they cannot do that. BUT that does not mean that Somchai in the local TRD will not try to hit you for back-taxes under your scenario, because of the incompetent rules in the Thai Tax Code and the poor (if any) training provided. Stay away from them IMO. 

15 minutes ago, ukrules said:

 

We're getting either a 6 month or 12 month Cambodia visa after we both received online E-Type visas that can be converted inside Cambodia. I'll do the conversion next week I think.

 

When I do remit it will be a large amount as we are likely going to buy a place to live in but I'm not ready just yet.

 

Also I will send enough into Thailand to last me for years to come without remitting anything, or perhaps a minimum amount so I don't need to deal with this or repeat it for a long time.

 

You never know though, we might really like it in Cambodia compared to Hua Hin, but they also have a 180+ day system and it's far worse, apparently their law says they can tax worldwide income - but I believe it's not something that anyone has ever paid.

 

For the time being I would like to remain unregistered and continue to have no TIN and the only way I can see this happening and being legal is to make the move now.

 

Then I'll sit back and watch how it all unfolds

 

There are some potentially interesting events unfolding with the PM this week and with this place you never know how things will turn out.

 

Maybe take a look at Malaysia and Philipinnes - I understand that they both dont tax FSI (Foreign Sourced Income) that has been subjected to the taxation system of the country of origin, and there are other exclusion conditions too.  

18 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again, I don't want to belabour the comparison to Wise, but Wise typically doesn't remit your money as a single transaction but uses money already in Thailand to pay you out & then will settle it's own accounts periodically by moving money across.

 

So if 10 people sent £1,000 to Thailand, Wise would pay them 460,000 THB out of money in their Thai Bank accounts & at some point in the future send over the £10,000 to square their accounts, if in the meantime somebody had sent 46,000 THB back (Bad example as Wise doesn't do external transfers from Thailand but in other countries where they do) then they would square it up by sending £9,000 back 

I hear you - and agree that Wise was a bad example as they send money into a single person's bank account. 

23 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

Seems to answer the question for both Spouse-Spouse Gifts & Gifts from Parents etc... Any gifts received are solely owned by the person receiving the gift....

 

 

3. Property acquired by either spouse during marriage through inheritance or gift
If a spouse acquires any assets or property during marriage through inheritance, whether as a statutory heir or a beneficiary named in a will, such assets are considered personal property of the acquiring spouse. The same applies to gifts received by either spouse, which are specifically intended for them and without any consideration. Such gifts are the sole property of the receiving spouse. This principle also applies when a spouse gives a gift to the other spouse, which will be deemed the separate property of the recipient, even during the marriage.

 

https://www.lafs-legal.com/blog/9633/personal-property-and-marital-property

 

Thanks - that is even more 'evidience' that gifting is a legitimate tax avoidance strategy (for now). 

20 minutes ago, KhunHeineken said:

It would stand to reason that they tighten this loophole and start taxing the Thai spouses on the gift amount as if it was earnings.  That policy is for 2025. 

The TRD has allowed 20-30 million Thais not lodging tax returns, and they have done nothing about for many decades. Would they seriously target the partners of Expats alone and not all the other Thais - the social media outcry would be horrendous for the Govt politically. 

5 minutes ago, jayboy said:

 

I think this is correct.While I understand the arguments that have been made on this point, I would go out on a limb with this prediction.In a couple of years time it will seem absurd that anyone seriously maintained that expenses incurred on a foreign credit card and settled in the same foreign country should be regarded as assessable Thai income and entered on an expatriate's Thai tax return.This slightly absurd aspect should remind us that sometimes common sense needs to be applied though I don't suppose it will be.Once matters settle down - and I am speaking of the whole subject now - and we have the hard evidence available on RD's position (both de jure and de facto) in 2025, my hunch is much of what is being assumed now may have to be revised.This is not to deprecate the valuable work being done now and its prudent to prepare for all scenarios.

Yes that is what I also think will happen - one year of 'issues' and then a lot more rational approach. In the meantime, IMO all Expats that are not earning money in Thailand (working etc) and are 'lineball' about whether they should get a TIN and lodge a tax return, should take the prudent approqach and keep their heads down.  It is always the foolish ones who rush to be up front who get 'hit' when things are wrong - the wise ones hang back and wait and watch. This is the same sort of thing IMO. 

5 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

Yeah the sales style they have in Thailand will not work in Europe, they would see trough it it lacks contents/details/facts/decision making and everyone nows whatever that guy says can be changed in a week. The weed law is just the most recent proof of that. Nobody wants to do business with unneeded additional risks factors.

 

That's why for a few sectors like automotive or exporting stuff from Thailand it is fine, as that is kind of 'stable'. But otherwise, not really. But sure Burriram wants to do races since years, so it would be indeed very cool if Thailand could host some events. He is not wrong, he just has to make it happen.

 

It could have a serious significant and lasting impact on Burriram and the places surrounding it in terms of jobs, hotels, more flights etc if they had like multiple big events there every year.

The Burriram track is not big/wide enough for F1 and the facilities are not up to scratch either - OK for the MotoGp bikes, but not the 'big boys'.  I doubt very much that the costs to upgrade the track and facilities would be worth it.  F1 is a business and is all about making money from the countries that they take their 'circus' to - huge payments and costs are involved - not as much as the World Cup Football, but in that ballpark.

Aint gonna happen - this bloke talks and smiles and talks and smiles and talks and smiles ...............

The sad thing is that many Thais think he is doing a great job - all these new deals with overseas bigwigs that will bring in lots of money money money.  I thought TAT was ridiculous - this is way beyond even their lunacy.  

Deal Talker NOT a Deal Maker - nothing has actually happened and IMO never will.

2 months?  Miscarriage because of that??  Give me a break - maybe miscarriage was from carrying drugs up there.  Smoke Screen if you ask me - to divert attention away from the drug charges. As in, you drop the drug charges and I drop the lawsuit.  

37 minutes ago, Presnock said:

hey all must remember whrere we are living TIT and I have been living here off and on since 1972 and nothing is permanent here except the changes.  Hopefully, someday SOON the TRD/govt will put out the final documentation on the tax interpretations and most of us can jus totally relax as we are not affected one way or the other.  Take care,  all be happy in the LOS.

Hope you are correct - but I am worried it will take a year of 'financial disasters' and Court appeals by Thais, before they realise they need to back down and do something reasonable like follow Malaysia's path - the big one being to exempt all FSI that has been subjected to the overseas country's tax rules. 

12 hours ago, proton said:

 

Transfer your tax free limit, then the rest as a gift to the Mrs. It's legal and what she spends it on is legal, let them audit you, no tax to pay.

Good advice IMO.  But everyone needs to make sure they keep an auditable paper trail of every transaction and transfer - and keep them in separate banks - both here and overseas.  Plus of course the tax free limit is twice the amount when you have a partner, because joint tax returns are very easy to do in Thailand. 

6 hours ago, ukrules said:

 

Yep, this is the way. I always said only one thing would make me leave this place and that's if they attempt to tax me on my earnings.

By voiding the 'memo' made in the 1980s that allowed previous year/years income to be sent in tax free they have opened up a hornets nest.
Anyway, later today, Tuesday 21 May, I fly to Phnom Penh and will be busy looking for somewhere to live for the next few weeks.

The Mrs is coming with me and will stay for the duration which I expect to be this year and next year, so we will both be non resident for at least 2024 and 2025.
Then I will reevaluate the situation.

I expect to make considerable funds during the next year or two so I can either sit here like an idiot and allow them to take 35% of most of it or make arrangements and save millions of Baht.
So I'm off....I will be beck though - I'll keep the number of days to around 175 and they will get nothing.

I would do the same if I was making any income/earnings this year and beyond.  You are not the only one leaving for a short or extended period. Most others I know of have decided to spend 179 days in Thailand, and the rest in another place - Cambodia and Laos are easy in and out - Vietnam is also very close. Others have gone to Philippines or Malaysia and most dont intend returning - lots of Yanks now live in Philippines.

12 hours ago, Mike Teavee said:

Agreed, Wise was a bad example though I could argue that I could book a room directly with the Hotel & send the money to them via Wise with would be no different that Hotels.Com sending them the money 🙂 

 

NB. I am joking, Wise was a really bad example to use.  

Did I also popint out that big companies like Expedia dont actually pay the Hotel for every visit?  They have an Agreement and under that they make a single total payment (after fees etc) once a month to the hotel.  Friends of a mate have 3 small units in Isaan (we stayed there a few times) and they stopped using them because of the fees and late payment. 

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

The point is that any potentially taxable event is formed when the person arrives at the hotel and accepts the offer and hands over their card to the hotel in Thailand and provides consideration. That is when the contract is formed. That means that IF the TRD considers spending on overseas CC to represents assessable income, the liability occurs at that point.

So you are saying that every tourists that enters Thailand, after paying for their holiday at home, has a potential taxation liability as they have remitted assessable income into Thailand.  Lets hope none of them stays for two trips of 90 days - they might be hit at the airport when leaving for not havinbg a tax clearance certificate 😉   The point is that at this time there is no reason to think that TRD considers a credit card transaction as a taxation event and that tax is payable, so therefore it is a legal way to avoid paying income tax in Thailand. However, if anyone was to use a CC for everything they pay for, then they MIGHT be asked one day to come and talk to the local TRD Office where they wiull be asked to explain how they pay to stay in Thailand.  I am not a lawyer and I cannot give legal advice, but if I was single with no ties to Thailand and doing that, and was asked to 'appear' in the local TRD within 7 days (say), then my time would be up in Thailand. Not an ideal strategy for someone intending to live here long term and/or with a Thai partner - not ideal, but a legal loophole. 

4 minutes ago, Mike Teavee said:

The discussion is if you used your AUS Amex to pay for a hotel in Thailand did you remit that income (are you using your using money from Australia to pay for something in Thailand) or is it a loan from Amex to you & Amex are remitting money to Thailand.

 

The fact that you booked via Hotels.Com in Singapore doesn’t matter as they’re just acting as an intermediary & sending the money to Thailand on your behalf, no different than Wise sending money to Thailand on your behalf. 

Big Difference.  Wise must and does send it to a Thai bank account. Expedia sends it to the hotel's bank account.  

2 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

A contract needs three things in order to be formed, an offer, acceptance and consideration. When the hotel in Thailand offers you a rate that you accept, the consideration is provided by the credit card. Services have been provided here, you accepted those services here and you provided consideration, the contract has been formed at that point. The charging and billing components overseas are not relevant, that's just settlement, back office stuff.

Simple explanation that is true, but has nothing to do with incurring an income tax liability for the remittance of assessable income.  If I am living overseas and I book and pay for a holiday to Thailand using my money in that overseas country, that money is not remitted to me in Thailand.  Remember most of the booking sewrvices are global - I paid for a recent triopo and the money went to Denmark (I had a quick look at the Ts&Cs).  That is the same for the airline flights and car rental and anythign else. The booking service I use pays for the hotel and anything else - I pay them.  It does not matter if I am in Thailand or not - the money is not remitted to myself in Thailand.  Sure it is a 'get around' if you want to call it that - but I prefer to call it a 'loophole' - same as the previous one they changed that allowed income earned overseas to be remitted 12+ months later and not incur income taxes.  I see it is on the list of unknowns - lets hope TRD answers them all. 

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

Again it’s not about whether you’ll be caught doing it, it’s whether what you’re doing is legit. 
 

If somebody were to never remit any money into Thailand & instead live on Overseas Credit Cards then I would think there is a non zero chance of them being audited & asked to explain how they were funding their stay, if the answer is “I’m using my overseas credit card” then maybe TRD will accept it or maybe they’ll assess it as remitted income & judge they owe tax, in the absence of any formal guidelines we just don’t know.

Therein lies one of the many issues still outstanding with this change and lack of detailed explanations by TRD.

Hard to plan ahead right now for certain - other than doing what is OK to reduce/avoid income taxes (legally), unless specifically advised by TRD (or Court precedence), that it is not legal.  Example - staying overseas for 185 days in a year is a legal method to avoid income taxes in Thailand.  

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

not

I agree. If/when I pay for something like a hotel using an Amex card in Australia, the 'money' is not remitted into any of my Thai bank accounts. And the payment is made to Amex from my bank account/s in Australia. Nothing to do with Thailand banking at all.  I can see a lot of Expats using credit cards from their home countries (paid for in their home countties) as a way around remitting money into Thailand, and that makes sense to me.  Most of the 'hotel booking' websites are 'global' and when you pay using them, it is them that pays the hotel. Same will occur for a lot of other things that can be paid for using a credit card I would assume. 

On 5/19/2024 at 3:08 AM, Lorry said:

Spend your holidays outside Thailand, the family trip to Samet could become a family trip to Malaysia, which isn't more expensive but has a lot more snob-appeal. Pay in Malaysia with money from your home country.

Absolutely - we will be doing the same for all our holidays in future (unless this idiocy changes). That way the money never enters Thailand.