TroubleandGrumpy

14 hours ago, TravelerEastWest said:

Grumpy is 100% correct. 

In general his above comments are correct and apply to many revenue departments including in America.

To trust Revenue Deparyment officials as being kind and on your side is not the best policy I say this from years of experience working in the tax world in America and many years of filing personal and corporate taxes in Thailand. There is always the exception if for example the local official is your brother-in-law?

Thanks mate.  And you are right - I am the Grumpy one, and the Thai wife is Trouble ????

Like you I have dealt with many Tax Offices, through working with the Australian Tax Office (as an IT Supplier), and I have known many friends and colleagues who worked in the ATO.  For those that do not know, in Australia the Fed Govt is very much like the USA Fed Govt.  In the USA the vast majority are in Washington, and in Australia they are all in Canberra where I lived for 20+ years (for my sins). But unlike in USA, the State Govts in Aust are much much smaller - the Aust Fed Govt is way bigger than in USA or UK or anywhere I am aware of. When I say 'bigger', I mean their authority and control over how all Australians live and work. The Tax Office in Australia is omnipotent and controls all taxation in the country and internationally. 

16 hours ago, tomacht8 said:

Everything is still unclear to me.
I have absolutely no desire to additionally torture myself with any Thai tax authorities.
The annual paperwar with the immigration is already enough for me. Since many years I have been able to transfer a total of 1-3 million Thai Baht to Thailand per year to my Thai bank account without any problems.

 

My money is already fully taxed in my home country from rental income, stock dividends and real estate sales. The money i transfered to Thailand was always used to support my Thai family and extended Thai relatives, some construction projects to give my relatives work, health insurance, car financing, school fees for my Thai nephews, etc.
This will no longer happen in 2024.

 

I will transfer a large sum to my Thailand bank account for the last time in 2023 and then it will be over. Planned investments (buying farmland for my Thai family, building a Thai stock portfolio for my thai children, buying another condominium in Thailand) are also being put on hold completely.

 

It would also annoy me if I had to hire any dubious Thai tax advisors.
The only alternative strategies for me so far are: to be in Thailand for less than 180 days per year, or to go on short trips to the Philippines, Singapore, Hong Kong and use Western Union there to transfer up to 20,000 US dollars per trip, which I can then legally take with me back to Thailand.
 

But one thing that will certainly not happen in my case is, that some Thai politicians will enrich themselves with my money through double taxation.

I and many many others agree with you Tom - it is a totally unacceptable situation that appears to be developing right in front of us, and we do not know when it will become clear what is going to happen.

My Thai wife and I lived in Thailand for almost 5 years, then we lived in Australia for 5 years, and now we are back in Thailand. The plan was to live here for 10-15 years, and then (maybe) go back to Australia when very old (in 80s). This was all planned - the wife is Aust Citizen and I was forced to live there to 'qualify' for the Pension (living in Aust being one condition).  Nowhere in all that planning both socially and financially was there any consideration for lodging tax returns and being obliged to pay income taxes in Thailand.  Unlike some of the Exp[ats on here, my Thai Wife is adamant that I/we will not pay income taxes in Thailand, on the money I get as a Pension and from my life savings in Super. 

Hopefuly when all the dust/cloud clears that will not be the case, but every 'announcement' since this was first advised by the Thai RD, has not stated that retired/married Expats are not being targetted to pay income taxes in Thailand.

We have two 'frontline' options, because only staying 179 days would be too difficult for me/us (we rent). 

First is to move to another country nearby, so we can easily visit for holidays now and then - Malaysia and Philippines look the best options at this time - maybe Indonesia (Bali).  Seconds is to move back to Australia - maybe somewhere up north so it is a much shorter flight to get here and to other destinations we planned to visit in Asia using Thailand as our base (Singapore, Japan, Korea, China, Vietnam, Cambodia, Malaysia, Indonesia - I have no intention of ever returning to India). 

18 hours ago, Lorry said:

Well said.

 

I never got coffee!!! Not fair!

Otherwise you are right. 

Immigration, in my experience, is sometimes malicious. 

RD has always been helpful.

 

Thanks mate.

Same here - sometimes they are great - sometimes they are just nasty.

Somehow Mike does not realise that it will be ugly, IF/WHEN when 100,000 retired/married Expats are forced to lodge tax returns, and they are not happy about it, and many let the Thai RD know that, and some even tell them to shove their coffee where the sun does not shine. 

18 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Jesus H....! You've never filed a tax return, never spent time with RD staff yet you've labelled them as worse than the Immi staff....are you even in Thailand?

 

It has always been the case in my experience, and in the experience of everyone else that I have spoken to about it, that RD is the easiest and best government department to work with. They volunteer information and fill out foreigners tax returns free of charge, and you get free coffee, a smile and never a queue! You should try visiting one of their offices, the next time you visit Thailand.

I can only agree with those who have responded with their feelings towards this Expat gone Feral tripe. Sad, confused and hilarious.  Good luck Mike.  Remember me when you are 'bitten' by the Thai bureacracy/laws. 

36 minutes ago, Dogmatix said:

It is also my sense that tax returns claiming tax credits under DTAs have been largely or even exclusively used by companies up until now, not by individuals. Thai companies have been liable to tax on their foreign source income for decades, regardless of whether they remit the income to Thailand.  However, there has not been any real for individuals to claim tax credits and there is no space to do so on the PND 91 form which you would think would have been added, if a large number of taxpayers were declaring foreign source income.  Anyone with enough foreign source income to make it worth paying a tax accountant to do the filing could afford to wait till the end of the tax year and remit the money tax free. Most people who needed the money before the end of the tax year are expat pensioners, whom the RD has not bothered up until now, probably assuming the incremental tax they could collect by harassing expat pensioners would not be worth the trouble. But all this seems likely to change.

I agree - but some think it will all be fine.   Each to his own - I would prefer to know now, rather than find out later when fines and interest penalties could get involved. 

5 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Enough, I don't exist here to respond to your every challenge and to present you with detailed explanation of everything I say, do or you ask for! Get your tax advice from your lawyers, their blogs and the internet, if that's your thing, the debates between us here are simply not productive useful or interesting for me or the wider audience any more. We be done here.

Agree - lets agree to disagree.

3 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

"Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?"

 

I have explained this several times in different places but here it is again:

 

My income is derived from US SSc Pensions and UK State Pensions, 50/50, all of which is paid into a Bangkok Bank account directly here in Thailand. The US SSc portion is excluded income under the widely accepted DTA. The UK portion is assessible income, against which I file a UK and Thai tax return. The Thai tax return allows me to deduct 190k right off the top, thereafter I'm allowed 60k for my Personal Care Allowance, the net of that, about 50% of the total income or

+ 360K, - 190k, -60k = - 110k baht is applied against the Thai tx tables, the first 150k of which is zero rated, ergo, taxable income is negative. 

And since you seem to want details of all my financial affairs so you can double check those against things I have said, let me oblige you:

I own UK property that provides rental income which remains in the UK, I also savings in the UK and substantial savings in Thailand (because I knew a long time ago that this day would arrive). I also have an investment account in the UK which is pension related which will remain in the UK until I die and my wife will receive it as inheritance. Oh ye, I forgot, I'm considering selling my UK property, hopefully before 1 January. I'm doing that because I want to liquidate all my none Thai estate so that it is easier to settle when I pass on.

There, that's a profile of my finance and taxes. Now, you didn't answer my question, why is it you find filing a tax return so difficult, per your earlier post) and how many have you filed?

Thanks for that detailed explanation - now I understand - no you had not detailed that before. IMO you should be careful if/when they make this change - I suggest getting advice from a tax lawyer/accountant. The reason I say that is because while you are a tax resident in Thailand, the rental money you recieve in UK is taxable income in Thailand. 

In answer to your question. My Thai lawyer told me that a tax return in Thailand using a DTA for exmeption or credits is a complex matter and it would not be easy or cheap.  Likewise, I have seen two vlogs by lawyers in Thailand who both say any tax return involving DTAs is complex - and one that at this point in time they are only used for companies tax returns (not personal income tax).

So please tell me Mike - given that you have never done a tax return involving DTA exemptions and credits - what make you think that they will be easy?

1 hour ago, retarius said:

I must admit to being intrigued by this endless forecasting about 4 million or not. Suppose it ends up at 3.95 million? Is that a disaster for Thailand. Will the country enter a deep depression? Or will it continue on as it has been doing? Suppose it is 4.05 million, will the sky open and millions of money filled envelopes float down and bring joy back to the people? Somehow I don't think so. The fact is 4 million, less than 4 million or more than 4 million makes little difference to anyone other than the owners of hotels and travel businesses who get a little more or little less profit.....I'm making a possibly totally untrue assumption in here that if 4.05 million Chinese arrive the hotel and business owners won't award their employees a 50% pay rise in which case the difference in numbers may affect a lot of people.? I could be wrong of course.

Excellent point/questions.  The answere IMO is ' They dont have a clue'.   A few weeks ago a report was released that showed clearly that although there had been a big growth in tourism in late 2022 and early 2023, there had been no measurable positive impact on the local economy at the grassroots level. That of course was quickly forgotten, and they made even more efforts to increase tourism - including Visa exempt entry for the Chinese. This was done while they constantly looked the other way regarding the constant news about the amount of crimes being committed by 'Chinese' people. 

To understand what the answers are to your questions, means knowing how the rich got richer during Covid, while the vast majority of us got poorer.  The uber rich are very good at 'making money' during difficult times - they and the media thrive during those periods - they love a 'good war'.  That is the same in Thailand. 

3 minutes ago, KannikaP said:

How will the Taxman know where any money I transfer via Wise, come from please?

Shall I have to show him all my UK Bank accounts?

That is yet to be determined - exactly how the Thai RD wants Expats to 'report' their remittances into Thailand - if they do.  Right now, it would be that you complete the claim and attach what documents you think are relevent. But under the new 'method' it might be that much more is required - or the Thai RD may make a info release saying certain payments to foreigners on long term Visas is not required to be lodged - but we have to wait and see.

In a recent post I detailed what they did in Malaysia when they introduced this change in 2021 (I think). After much 'feedback' they delayed the implementation by 5 years, and exempted personal income taxes from being affected. They start their new 'method' in 2026 - hopefully Thailand does the same.  PS - expats on long term Visas in Malaysia are exmpted from taxes on remittances - as long as the money brought in, is for spending inside Malaysia and is not sent onwards to another country (without a valid reason).

12 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I believe very strongly that using the correct nomenclature helps everyone not become confused regarding what the speaker/author is trying to convey. The problem is, one person starts off using the wrong term which others begin to use also and when somebody tries to apply the correct term, it causes even more confusion.......like you and me, like now! As you correctly point out, visa aren't renewed they are extended yet in hundreds of conversations in this and other similar forums, for many years, lots of people thought that their visa's were being renewed. So when a conversation arose about what visa a person was on, they replied incorrectly and became yet more confused. 

 

Regarding what is a Resident. Try going to Immigration in Thailand and begin the conversation by telling the I/O that you're  a Thai Resident and watch for the smile/smirk. Tell that same person you reside here or are a resident and all should be well. Tell us that you are Thailand Resident and we''l think you have been granted citizenship and will judge your words accordingly. If using the correct term/word to avoid that confusion is too difficult or irks you, consider putting my posts on ignore because as I knew from the very outset, that's where yours are going any minute now, mate!

 

As for filing a tax return being easy in Thailand, it is, I've filed several and it's very simple, how many have you filed and why have you found it so difficult?

Yes I can see that Mike - very strongly - but that is up to you.  I say this because I was the same 10 years ago - 'No it is not a Visa extension it is a Permission to Stay extension'.  But I realised that it does not really matter, as long as you know what the person means.  Certainly, I dont agree with them, but I learnt it is easier to let it go and do not 'correct' them.  

Regarding those alleged Thai tax returns you have done online and easy, saying you get just under 60K per month and pay SFA taxes, but then later say you dont know how or where to 'claim' DTA exemptions or credits. 60K a month is 720K per year - well over the 150K tax free amounts. Sp p[ray tell Mike, how do you pay so little taxes in Thailand when yopu have lodged tax returns for the last 2 years?

I would also suggest you rer-read all of your comments and mine regarding a Resident and tax resident. Nowhere do I say that I do not know the difference - I am very aware of them - I have spoken to a lawyer about applying for Residency - very little chance (not employed/working).  You assume that I dont know and then go into a rant - you are looking for disagreement Mike - re-read and you will see.

I have both studied all the taxation documents released by Thai RD, I have downloaded the Thai RD online tax return documents, I have studied all the press releases by the Thai Lawyers (including Sherrings which you gave), and I have been emailing back and forth with my Thai lawyer. It is NOT easy to do a tax return in Thailand when claiming exemption from taxes under a DTA - and if you re-read one of your own posts you dont know anything about it when I specifically asked you:

Go ahead - block me Mike - but I would prefer to continue the 'debate'. I find that I sometimes learn things from someone that is arguing with me, as opposed to those who are in agreement. You have provided some good insights and information - very valuable.  And you dont 'sound' like the type that reports you, when you respond to their insult with a similar insult (no names, no cowboys).  But - as with most things in Thailand including taxes - it is up to you ???? 

On 10/11/2023 at 10:53 PM, DonniePeverley said:

There has been a huge influx of Chinese tourists these past few weeks unfortunately. 

The big busses are back. The bus trying to go down a narrow Soi is back. 

The leader holding up a flag followed by 20-30 Chinese are back. 

Packing out the BTS is back. 

Throwing litter and spitting is back. 

Not buying anything but crowding is back. 

Walking around and just hearing Mandarin is back.

Unfortunately there also seems to be a rather unpleasant aggressive type of Chinese tourist, who may well be drawn by no visa fees. 

If you live nearby a touristy area, unfortunately you are going to start feeling like you are in China. 

I just wonder what is the maximum number TAT would be happy with Chinese tourists before it gets too much for the local population and infrustructure? 

10 Billion - then TAT would get paid HUGE bonuses for bringing exconomic properity and happiness to the Thai people.  I am sure that in a country run by people that have no care about repairing the roads and footpaths (and everything else), that the people running the place dont give a rat's rear about how badly Chinese behave - as long as they spend money.

On 10/11/2023 at 3:52 PM, kinyara said:

You're 7 foot 5 tall and wrong. ????

There you are. Shouldn't you be getting back to your village? I am sure they miss you. Yes I am sure they do.

On 10/11/2023 at 3:44 PM, Mike Lister said:

You confuse visa and tax residency. Anyone who remains in almost any country for more than 180 days, is tax resident. Visa's are a totally separate issue. But I do agree we are not Residents, we are resident perhaps but because of the long stay visa issue, we are not Residents, not that that changes the tax position..

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about Residency Mike - did you apply and get rejected. Or is it just that you are on a one man crsade to stop people using the wrong technical term ????  I suggest you just let it go mate. People say the wrong thing about extending their 'Visa' when of course it is their Permission to Stay. Correcting what others say all the time is not a good sign. 

You might be happy to pay income taxes in Thailand - and you can claim that lodiging a tax return in Thailand will be all fairy floss and unicorns - but most of us disagree.  And please dont correct me and say there are no unicorns in Thailand - you (should) know what I mean.     

My advice to you mate.  Rural Thailand is nothing like Rural USA - not even on the same planet.  But I also agree with you in regards to Pattaya etc.  There are Expats in all the main Isaan Cities, but unlike in other parts of Thailand, most of them are not Sexpats who you want to avoid at all costs. Many of them are blokes who may have started out that way here, but they grew up and started a long term relationship with an Isaan girl in Bangkok, Pattaya etc., and then they moved there. There are also those Expats that got hooked by a bar girl and he thinks she will always love him - bla bla bla.  If you are looking for somewhere to go as a single and then maybe find an Isaan girl, my advice to you is to be very very careful - you will stand out like a Bulldog's balls and you will become a 'target' for the 'not so good' Isaan girls.  May I suggest that you go to Chiang Mai first and whist there, start getting used to the Thai culture - and stay single.  Chiang Mai aint Isaan, but it is a lot closer to the 'real' rural Thailand of Isaan than Bangkok, Pattaya, Hua Hin, Samui or Phuket etc.  Once you have 'adjusted' in Chaing Mai then go to each of those Cities you mentioned, for at least 2 weeks each, to get a feel of the place and see if you like it.  PS - never buy a property in Thailand - rent (easy to move or get away). 

On a broader note, English is everywhere in Thailand - but it is not spoken everywhere. The street signs are in Thai and English. The Thai ID Cards are in both - as are many other Government Docs. Most Thai websites have an English option.  Rural farmers in Isaan tend to not speak English much, while the Doctor in Bangkok will speak fluent English.  Many Issan girls go to work in the big cities where tourists are - some start working in the 'bar girl' industry, but most do not. Avoid bar girls unless you just want them for a short period of time, and absolutely you must stay away from any girl that was a bar girl. Do your research. Take your time.

Isn't this from Thai BS organisations that claims 3.8 million 'tourists' have arrived from Malaysia in 2023, and they all spent 50K Baht during their visit, generated 200 Billion Baht in 'economic benefits'?

Even the tallest village idiot should know that the vast majority of 'visitors' from Malaysia come over the southern border (walk) - for work, family and other social reasons. 

Maybe I am wrong, but I have not seen any large numbers of Malaysians about in Bangkok, Chonburi, Pattaya or Rayong - and someone said on their vlog recently  'They aint here in Phuket'.  Are they all going to Hua Hin maybe? Chiang Mai? Isaan? 

10 minutes ago, moogradod said:

We will see how complicated it will really get. If you are right I would better engage a lawyer / accountant as well just to be sure to prevent misunderstandings with bigger impact. Actually I do not see any arise but as you know .......

 

The problem will be to find the right one. Needs to be specialized and professional, willing to confine time, speaking English very well and have lots of experience with the authorities. And this all in Chonburi. If you find one pls. drop me a PM. I will then check him out. Thanks.

I agree with all that - If I do need to do a tax return in Thailand.  Plus I would look for one that knows the DTA betwen Thailand and my home country.  There are many legal/accounting firms in Thailand that have a senior person or owner, who is someone from US, UK, Aussie, etc.

But before getting to that point of needing a tax lawyer/accountant - there are a few issues that are still awaiting clarification from the Thai RD.

If I remit a large amount of money into Thailand (over the 150K tax free threshold), but none of it is income as defined in the Thai Tax Code, am I still required to lodge a tax return. 

Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is a Govt Pension as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes.

Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is from a Govt controlled Retirement Fund (Superannuation in Australia), as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes.

Does the Thai RD view monies brought into Thailand that is from a Savings Account, as taxable income. If it does view that money as taxable income, does that mean I am required to do a tax return, and apply under the DTA for exemption from taxes.

In other words, does the Thai RD view any/all remittances brought into Thailand by Expats as taxable income, and do I therefore have to lodge a tax return.

I am extremely unhappy about having to 'justify' bringing my money into Thailand  every year, with the potential of being 'nailed' one year - probably in that year I was silly enough to bring in 5+ million baht to buy a property in Thailand.   

17 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I've never had to hence I don't know, sorry. But I do recall seeing that money reclaimed under a DTA with Thailand is in the form of a credit rather than a repayment.

It looks like it will be very complicated to me - and probably require a lawyer/accountant.  Either way, lodging a tax return in Thailand where DTAs are involved will not be - 'done online and is easy enough to do.'  

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

Which is done online and is easy enough to do. The country will probably get to that point one day, or close to, I think. 

Please tell me Mike - where do you claim DTA exemptions via this 'easy enough to do' online tax return? 

080966PIT94.pdf (rd.go.th)

Maybe there is another online tax return system - please advise where that is - I could not find it.

20 hours ago, Puccini said:

It depends on the DTAs of Thailand with the individual countries.

Please see my last post in reply to another guy.  It is techncially up to the Thai RD to decide what is and what is not exempted under any DTA - I just hope they dont make us all lodge a return and make the claim (and wait while they decide).  

On 10/9/2023 at 3:59 PM, JimGant said:

Negative. You're not required to file a Thai tax return if you don't have income that's taxable. So, my Air Force pension and Social Security payment are "exclusively" taxable by the US. Thus, it's not taxable by Thailand, and so no income tax return required.

I agree with what you are saying, but technically it is not up to you to make that decision. Only the Thai RD can decide that your pensions are not taxable in Thailand under the Thai/USA DTA. Sure, it should merely be a formality and perhaps a quick contact with Thai RD can give you that assurance and advise you that you dont need to lodge a tax return and make that claim. But who knows what the Govt is going to do about those remittanmces into Thailand by Expats, that are covered under the DTAs and not taxable in Thailand.  Maybe they will say 'dont lodge a tax return' - but maybe they will you still have to lodge a tax return and claim exemption/s under the DTA. 

In the past the Thai RD just did not want to bother with it - lots of work and trouble for them in dealing with Expats, and they knew that the majority of Expat's payments are exempted. But if they are told that we must all lodge returns and claim the exemptions, then they will have no choice. 

On 10/9/2023 at 2:18 PM, K2938 said:

It gets even worse than this.  While the Thai tax authorities have not really much focused on remittances from foreigners in the past, they of course will do now.  And in the course of complaining about your transfers in 2024, they will then probably also ask you a lot of questions about transfers you made in the past and also start complaining about those because maybe they were not really tax-free according to their logic even under the old tax regime.  And they can demand back taxes from you for up to 10 years.  So this will be real fun.

That is definitely possible -  And I thought I was being the worst case scenario ???? 

I could say that is extremely unlikjely to happen - but who knows.