TroubleandGrumpy

1 hour ago, CharlesHolzhauer said:

It's essential to focus on your personal situation and not be swayed by opinionated individuals citing hearsay on remitting procedures by other nationalities. If your investment products are placed in an Account Based Pension, you pay zero taxes, PERIOD. None of the Account Based Pension platform operators will remit pension payments to an overseas account; you'll need to arrange it yourself.

Go to <https://aseannow.com/topic/1318120-revenue-department-contact-reports/#comment-18647010> and locate poster 'pauku1' and download his excell spreadsheet to compute your taxes if any - you might be pleasantly surprised.

I have a Scandinavian relative and he knows one of those blokes that have done that - they are in Hua Hin. I tried looking for the post one of them about it last year and why he pays income taxes in Thailand and not back home - could not find it.  If you did not know the taxes most scandinavians pay omn their 'retirement savings/super' is extremely high - in fact it is higher if you live overseas, than if you live in the home country. Their system is very much more complicated than the Aust system - it is run by their Government so need I say more. 

Yes Australian Account Based Super Funds' earnings are not taxed.  But Accumulation Phase Super Fund's earnings are taxed - at 15%. Converting from Accumulation Phase to Account Based when a person retires and then receiving regular "Pension Payments" has a few ATO and CLink 'issues' (gotchas) and now doing that also has potential Thailand taxation issues too. The former issue is why I remained in the Accumulation Phase and the latter issue is another positive for having made that decision. I can stay in Accumulation Phase until I turn 75 - for the time being I will withdraw irregular payments fromk my Super account as and when I need them. 

Yes that spreadsheet is OK - I have made one of my own and have calculated that I paid more taxes in Aust on my Super 'earnings' last year than I would had to pay in Thailand - but the difference is not a lot so going forward so I will stay paying taxes on Super earnings/growth in Australia.  Having said that, my read of the TRD Guidlines is that growth in a mutual trust fund is not 'taxable income'. However, that is obviously for mutual trust funds in Thailand and not specifically for Super mutal trust funds in Australia - they could be said to be the same thing - but I will stay away from lodging a tax return to find that out.    

2 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

You know, every now and again another dipstick comes along, albeit it the last one put his tail under his legs and hasn't surfaced since I shamed him, that said, I don't have the time to argue with thick headed people who believe what they believe, I know from the research that I have provided also in another topic Australian Age Pensions which was started 10 + years ago, that all of the links and confirmations from others as well, points to Australian Age Pensions being taxable in Thailand.

You have come out of nowhere and are trying to stir up the hornets nest as did someone else, and to be honest, I am not buying into it as I have more important things to do earning a buck then to try and convince some Troubled Grumpy guy who thinks he knows everything, no thanks.

I'm out of here, maybe the others can entertain you, but if you did read the 3rd post in this topic, it should have gotten through, maybe your name is something other than what it says who has come back to start up again.  

Good riddance - we are all far better off on this topic sharing our opinions.  I have met a few dipsticks in my time and what is very much a constant with them is that they immediately abuse anyone that dares disagree or criticise what they state - and they never defend their stated position.

1 hour ago, fredwiggy said:

Here they always get custody, and the ex husband pays child support (usually only a farang). The women gets half of the marital assets, just like in western countries, and she will get the house if she chipped in anything towards the building of it. If she paid part, they will usually be forced to sell it, or buy the other out. If she didn't chip in, and he paid 100%, he keeps it until he leaves, then she gets it. Anything he had before the marriage is his and vice versa. Pretty much the same as western countries.

No - not the same.  After a short period of time (1 year) in the west the wife is entitled to claim up to half of the husband's assets. In the west, after 2-3 years it is very much a given that she will get at least half the husband's assets - whether they were acquired by him before the marriage started or not. In Thailand what is the husband's prior to the marriage is his, if the marriage breaks down.

Regards custody of kids and child support, you are correct - but she does not automatically get half of the assets - only half of what they have both accumulated since they got married (perhaps you mean that when using the words 'marital assets').  In Thailand the marriage laws are very much 'designed' to keep the couple together, in the west the marriage laws are very much designed for the women to get as much as possible from the man.  They were not always designed that way, but a*ole men who deserted them and kids, and men hating feminists,caused the changes that we made - but they went too far - way too far. Now in the west you have a*ole women screwing blokes over - the exact opposite of the reason why the marriage laws were changed.  

6 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Yes

But we men can still be fair.

If I would separate from her, after nay years, without her doing something bad, I would feel obliged to make sure she will continue to have the basics like shelter and food for some time - until she works herself again or has a new bf. That is only fair. But I wouldn't feel obliged to provide her with luxury housing and king crabs. 

 

I think the crazy thing about divorce laws is that if a poor person marries a "rich" person that then he is responsible to keep her rich. Crazy! 

Yes mate - crazy biased divorce laws are why many of us left the western BS behind.  I recall one debate I had with a feminist about Greg Norman (Aussie Golfer) going through a divorce and whose wife was demanding half of everything he had earned at golf and business ($millions).  I pointed out the clearly logical and rational point that Greg's wife had done nothing more than any normal wife (not a golf coach or business expert) - why should she get half of his $millions. When I got all the usualy khrapp back about supporting and enabling Greg to achieve in life etc etc., I pointed out that Alan Bond was sentenced to jail for his corruption that netted him $millions, but his wife was not punished - why not??!! She had enabled and supported him !!!  If looks could kill I would not be typing this right now. Western women are so full of BS they think they are entitled to all the upsides of a man but none of his downsides - the divorce system here is far more reasonable and fair.  

very hard to watch women's basketball - both because not many want to watch it, and because it is so bad.

On 3/30/2024 at 9:28 AM, mfd101 said:

On 2 or 3 occasions in the last 2 years I have received queries from my various Oz financial institutions (including NAB) as to my tax status in Thailand. In (then) total ignorance of the Thai proposals & decisions to follow, I replied in each case (truthfully) that I don't have a TIN & I have no income sourced in Thailand ie all my income comes from Oz. At the time I thought that was an end of the matter.

 

In addition, for the last 4 or 5 years, without consultation the ATO has treated me as non-resident for tax purposes. Fair enough I guess, and it means I now have to pay additional tax (AUD8 or 9K) at the end of each FY as I have no 32% tax-free threshold.

 

My income is entirely Federal government public service superannuation (CSC/CSS - long-since closed).

 

Question: What happens when, later this year, I take out a TIN and prepare my first tax statement for Thailand starting 1Jan24? Noting the DTA, will that mean I cease to pay any Oz tax? And can I get refunded on the Oz tax I will already have paid from January this year? (Without knowing the likely Thai taxes I will have to pay it's hard to decide whether I'll be better off taxwise here, but I think with the ATO now swiping 32% of my total income I'm likely to be better off paying ONLY Thai tax.)

 

I know of a few people in the same position as yourself - paying taxes on their Aust Govt pension payments.  That is taxed now only because the contributions made into that Govt super fund were given additional taxation benefits and done at a much higher rate.  Other Super funds did not have those same taxation benefits, and that is why payments from them are not considered by the ATO as taxable income.  

I would get the latest information regarding paying income taxes in Thailand, inluding all the deductions and allowances applicable to yourself, and calulate exactly how much tax you would pay in Thailand versus in Australia.  I have heard there are a few Scandinavians in Thailand who are getting their 'retirement' payments sent direct to their banks in Thailand, because Thailand taxes them a lot less than their home country does. But it means going through the process of dealing with the home country tax office (ATO for you) to set things up in that way - once done the ATO will stop taxing your Pension payments - but I dont think it will be easy. 

17 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

In my opinion, from what I have read, it states that the AP is taxable in Thailand, now whether they enforce that or not is up to them.

 

I take it, that since it has been in place since the DTA came into effect in the 80,s, if I'm not mistaken, that they won't enforce it, like many things in Thailand, i.e. unless they want to open the flood gates for many expats on age pensions from all countries to leave as the cost of living in Thailand would have become that more expensive to live due to any taxes enforced on their age pensions.

We clearly have different opinions about whether it is taxable in Thailand.  Hopewfully our discussions on the matter will give members what they need to make their own decision/s.  Looking forward to your post with link/proof it is taxable.  PS - anything from a tax accountant stating it is taxable is not worth the paper it is printed on - they are after your business and will and do say anything - there are SFA consumer laws here, and the TRD does not manage taxation 'experts' like the ATO and Consumer Affairs and Financial Advisers Ombudsman does in Australia.  

I agree 100% with your second paragraph, but I will point out that unlike the TAT and Thai Immigration, TRD do not care one bit about Expats leaving Thailand - that is not their issue and they will not take that issue into account (unless told to back down). 

21 minutes ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

Do please enlighten me/us with your findings, you can copy and paste them here, or the link, outlining which section of the DTA states that Aussies are not liable to pay income tax to Thailand on their Aust Pension payments.

 

Nothing posted with a link is like posting words, words to no effect IMO.

You sound like someone else mate - argumentative and never wrong (enlighten me/us).  

Please read my latest post vefore this and then please read the TRD Guidlines for 2022 and the Australian Thai DTA - all of them.

Then and only then will you see what I have seen which make it IMO not taxable.  

PS - also look up the Thai definition of the word Pension.

You are one of the many that have stated that the pension is taxable - please provide where it states clearly that the Pension is subject to income taxes in Thailand.  Please post everything you have - so I can refute/correct it all in one go. 

Year 2022 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

australia : article 1-5 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

21 hours ago, scorecard said:

I have a question, it's been suggested to post the question here:

"And still not clear whether the Australian Old Age Pension, transferred to Thailand, is exempt from Thai personal taxation, especially where the recipient has no other income."

Or perhaps the question is whether the Oz OAP (alone) is considered to be income under the Thai RD regulations?

I'm just guessing but I suspect a few Aussies on the OAP living in Thailand will be interested in this point. Thanks for any advice you can share.

IMO the Australian Pension is NOT subject to income taxes in Thailand.  There are several reasons for that opinion.  Taxation is an extremely complicated and 'difficult' area - in Aust we are extremely lucky to have the ATO - they are IMO the best in the world (I worked in IT in Canberra for 20+ years).  Often this tax rule states this, and that rule states that, and both are in conflict, and another one says another thing altogether. Over many years those rules and situations are rigorously 'fine tuned' and publicised and the tax experts and public are 'educated'.  ATO has over the last 3-4 decades done a great job in doing that - the TRD are a total clusterphaarrk of disjointed and conflicting arbitrary rules and interpretations. Most TRD clarifications come from Court cases - they are not rigorously removing conflicts, confusions. ommissions and errors.  

The issue with your question starts with being a tax resident in Thailand and/or a tax resident in Australia.  I am both at the moment, and if you pay taxes in Australia (which you have already on any earnings/super etc) you probably are one too.  That is a huge issue and grwatly affects income taxation in any other country.  

The secondary issue of whether a Govt Pension is taxable in Thailand is confusing, but IMO TRD does not consider a Government Pension (in their Taxation Rules) as taxable - but it is very much (like everything to do with TRD) open to interpretation.  A  'Pension' in the TRD guidelines is any regular payment made to a person - some Companies pay a person a 'Pension' over many years in return for their service - that is taxable.

The next level is whether under the DTA the Aust Govt Pension is taxable. There are many clauses and interpretations possible - mine is that it is not taxanble in Thailand.  If this matter ever goes to a Thai Court for a decision - then and only then will it be clear. But even that will be subjected to 'correction' - I just cannot see the Aust Taxpayer (and therefore Govt) being happy to pay their taxes straight to the Thai Government for every person on a Penbsion and residing in Thailand for 180+ days each year. 

There are more complications than those above that I have only just touched on - this could go on for hours. IMO the ASust Govt Pension is not taxable.

Having said that, I know one of the 'confusing' facts that has IMO caused the misinterpretation that the Pension is taxable.  In Australia, the Pension (like most CLink payments) is considered 'taxable income' - but as you know it is not taxed - it is subjected to and then exempted from tax by the ATO.  When a person recieves the Pension they are 'deemed' to have a taxable income that is above the tax free threshold, then if they earn money from another source, then that income is 100% subject to payment of income taxes, because it is above the tax free threshold. I think some people have confused the Pension being taxable income with being taxable in Thailand.  IMO the Aust Govt under the DTA does not want its taxpayer's money being paid to the Thailand Government, and the DTA does not clearly state that the Govt Pension is taxable in Thailand.  Now what TRD might think about that is unknown (they dont make the DTAs) and IMO is best left alone like a sleeping dog. 

IMO all Expats should avoid lodging a tax return in Thailand unless they are clearly earning income overseas (real income, not Pension) and are bringing that income into Thailand untaxed. If, like me, you dont think you have to pay income taxes in Thailand, then keep records of all payments in Australia, all transfers to Thailand, and all deposits in Thailand, and write down the reasons why you think you are not liable for income taxes (keep a file each year). Then if I am wrong (could be - doubt it - but could be) and the TRD comes knocking asking why you have not lodged a tax return, then and only then, go see a tax expert/consultant and get formal advice. If you see one now, IMO they will say "yes yes pay us money and we do a tax return for you' now and every year going forward. If you want to play it completely safe, then go see one towards the end of this year - when things will hopefully be clearer.  In Thailand it can take many years to resolve the simplest of issues (criminal cases, maryjane laws, covid mandates, etc etc) - IMO this new 'tax regime' will take 2-3 years to sort itself out - best to stay quiet until then. 

All Thailand has to do is release a statement (like Malysia and Philippines have done and others?) making it clear that they have no intention of taxing Retired Expats who bring their own money into Thailand under their implementation of the required OECD CRS driven tax laws, designed to reduce money laundering and tax fraud. That Thailand has not yet done that despite the clearly concerned Expats (and poptential Expats) could mean they do want our money, but more likely it is because they are dont know what to do and how to do it (and refuse to look, listen and learn from their neighbours).  

My only comment is that if you still believe that Hitlers Government in Germany was far-right, you have not taken a close and rational and logical look at what is happening all around the world, and you are (still?) believing the ledft wing media.  Left wing Governments are the ones that imposed the most draconian and harshest rules during Covid and they were all in favour of the removal of people's rights. Left wing Governments all over the world are becomming more and more draconian in their imposition of Laws to force the People to 'comply' with their centralised ideologies.  China is not far-right.  Nth Korea is not far-right.  Russia is not far right. Muslim countries are not far right. What is happening in Scotland is the reality of a left-wing Government - they just get worse and worse over time.

Hitler's Party was named the National Socialist German Workers Party - they were yuet another variation of the far-left. There is only one thing that is the clear and absolute differentiater of left-wing from right-wing Goverments - and that is People's rights and freedoms.  Whether those 'rights' come from a God or from a Constitution or from Both - the right wing political parties are very much in favour of giving People rights and freedoms.  Left wing political parties are in favour of centralised committees making the rules, and that always results in the removal of People's rights and freedoms, when they conflict with their own ideologies. The political world is turning back to the right because more and more People are realising what is what and who is who. Maybe the reality of what is happening in Scotland will make more People realise the truth.

On 2/19/2024 at 10:28 AM, 4MyEgo said:

From my understanding/interpretation, if you like, Age Pensions paid to Australia expats living in Thailand since 1989/90 under the DTA have been blanketed from paying any tax in Australia as the DTA states that Thailand (the state) where the expat/resident resides shall pay tax, pretty straight forward for the majority of members to understand, i.e. Article 18 which is what the Age Pensions falls under, end of story on that.

I just found this thread - please Mods could you please pin this thread to the start page - like most I only looked at the first page for whats new.

@4MyEgo  My understanding is that your statement above is incorrect for the majority of Aussie Pensioners living in Thailand.  The Aust Age Pension IMO is not taxable in Thailand - the story is not ended. I know one website stated that it is taxable - but that is an opinion given by a staffer in that company who wrote the piece and it is not based on facts. The matter has not been tested in a Court or Tribunal.  I have been seeking feedback and opinion from ATO, but I have received no reply. Unfortunately we are about to leave for golf and I have not had a chance to read all the posts - perhaps someone else has already pushed back on this issue. I will do that when we get back later today (after a snooze). Suffice to say now that if you read the DTA in full, there are many reasons/exemptions why most Aussies are not liable to pay income tax to Thailand on their Aust Pension payments. 

For those Aussies interested in open discussions about Taxation issues - below is the thread to post in.

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I was going through the Simple Tax Guide this morning, trying to understand what the problems are with various links. In doing so, I realised that I didn't see the document you linked in your post. Can you please tell us why you linked that document and where it came from and when you saved it? 

 

You wrote, "Documents you referred to from Thai RD before also state clearly for income from employment only". The current Tax Guide is Version 8, Rev. A, each version has been revised many times meaning there have been as many as 50 different version of the document, since it was first started. At one stage, particularly in the early days, I used some documents to explain different aspects of tax, simply because a particular document explained one aspect well, eg the end to end tax filing process, TEDA, Tax Tables etc, all of which are generic to tax, regardless of the source of income. 

It comes from the TRD website - 030265guide91.pdf (rd.go.th)

There is also one for the 2022 year on the TRD website - it says PDF buy it is actually a Word doc. - https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/2022/GUIDE_90_65_Complete.docx

TRD have also created a 2023 list of linked documents. - Year 2023 | The Revenue Department (English Site) (rd.go.th)

56 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Aust24R posted "She says she wants a divorce, but she has no grounds for a contested divorce when it's only her that wants it,". I interpretted this to mean that his wife wanted the divorce, which, as I said, would be straightforward (assuming they do not have children).  

Good point - I missed that - my bad.  

OP - take the offer and get a divorce - she may in fact recognise that as the only way for you to 'escape' from the financial demands from her Mother.  Either that or migrate with her to another country (she may want to escape as well). 

Girls in Thailand are extremely under the control of their Mothers - they are totally and utterly under their control - way way more than girls in the west - it is just the way it is here - if the Mother is bad she will force her daughters to do things they might not otherwise do.  

Just now, Kaopad999 said:

It's not nasty or  derogatory when it's simply factual. It's widely recognized that critical thinking skills are not emphasized in the Thai education system.

Indeed - thinking critically means being critical and that is not allowed in Thailand and most SEAsian countries

10 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

No, you misunderstand. If you are not prepared to cooperate and leave this thread clean and instead, post half page posts and rants about Australia, the threads is all yours to do with as you please.

Ok then - in the abscence of another option, we Aussies will continue to discuss the Thailand Expat income tax issues right here.

Half page posts and rants about Australia - all good.

7 pages in a few hours - wow - touchy touchy over-sensitives (and stirrers having a laugh) me thinks.

Thailand is rife with idiots in authority making idiotic over-reaching statements to get into the media - just look at the PM.

Dont take them seriously is my advice and have a good laugh at them - that is what the Thais do (they just do it very quietly).

Thailand is the Global Hub of idiotic Government ideas that are published in the media (because criticising what is said by a Government authority person will get the Editor sued for defamation). 

Just now, Mike Lister said:

If that's what you want, that's what you shall have.

Cheers Mike - much appreciated 😁 

9 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

There are several threads in the Australian home country forum that are specific to Australians, linked below is one such thread. Please do not post Australian specific issues here since they will not be well responded to and the thread is reserved for known fact rather than debate. Thanks. Note: non-relevant posts will be deleted periodically, in order to keep the thread readable for new commers.

 

As discussed Mike - this is for the OAP - it is not about Income Taxes on Remittances in Thailand.

2 hours ago, Rampant Rabbit said:

Anyone know the score on this scenario , My parents   gave me their  house over 24 years  ago to avoid the state taking it in their old  age (its now my only UK resdence), all done  by UK solicitor, they pay me rent of £1 a  year to live there.

At the time its value was £75000, its  current  value is £300000, My mother still lives there but she is  96 and at some point will die. I will then sell this  house, its value as of Jan 24 was £300000k would I need that in writing from the estate agent as a valuation dated Jan 1 -2024? and what may I be  liable for? There  will be no Capital Gains Tax on this  properyt in the UK   reading below its says "profit on the investment" but this  looks  more to me like I inherited the property? Live in Thailand permanently

 

Thailand does not tax inheritences valued under 100 Million Baht (about 2.2 million pounds) 😁 

18 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

As requested previously, can we please move this discussion to the Australian pensions thread and leave this one clear for tax guide queries and new fact that is not dta dependent? Thanks.

Mike you are no longer a Mod - but could you take this up with the Mods.

There is no thread on the Australian forum that covers this new income taxes on remitted money for Aussies. 

The OAP thread is only about the Pension - not about this new tax regime.

If you/they (Mods) could start a new thread and make it linked/sticky on the front page - and then move into that thread our posts made here that would be great.