Mike Lister

The need to file a nill return is confirmed in the following link, https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html Chapter 3, Section 40, para 1

We are not going to debate this further in this thread because it is now a matter of interpretation. I'll leave it both on the list of unknowns but I'll also include the link for the RD rule citing chapter and para etc. Further posts on this point will not remain visible, the thread can move on to other aspects. If anyone wants further debates on this item, the 230 page thread is open and waiting. Thanks

I think that rather conclusively puts to rest a couple of arguments about whether a pension is considered to be income or not, it is. More importantly, the need to file a tax return, even if there is no tax due, is confirmed for a second time. I'm inclined to take those things off the list of unknowns, unless I hear objections. Many thanks once again to Guavaman for doing the research that we all should be doing.

Perhaps we are/have been talking at cross purposes. I have never expected, ever, that the system would be anything other than self assessment for everyone, from day one. I can't imagine what I've said that has made you think otherwise? It is YOU that must "test for exemption", YOU have to know if it is exempt or not! and it is YOU that must "test against the DTA".

There is very little difference between the actual exchange rates offered by the banks, they all use their Treasury function which is connected to the FOREX. The sign boards may show different rates but actual rates change in real time hence it's only the rate at the moment of exchange that is pertinent. The money changers are the same way but their margins are slimmer because their overheads are less. I'm pretty sure if you could take 10 people and ask them to exchange the same amount of the same currency, at the same time, at 10 different money exchangers in the same area, the difference in the rate would be negligible.

If no tax is owed, there are no penalties for not filing.

The following highlights the problem that is causing friction: "Stating that something is 'understood to mean assessable income' as a fact, when it is your opinion, is not right. If the Thai RD has stated that as a fact in a document that is relevent to non-working Expats, then please provide it". People are looking for certainty and proof where none exists, in the absence of it, we state our understanding and the basis for our presumptions. What is the alternative to that? Do nothing, say we don't know, debate it endlessly over a further 6,300 posts and still not conclude? Those things are not helpful. We don't state any of these things as fact, we caveat and disclaim the entire document from the first line. The term, "understood to mean assessible income", was a quote I lifted from an exchange between T&G and Sheryl where this same subject was debated and Sheryl concluded it was so. Until somebody comes along with conclusive proof and a link that changes that interpretation, that is what our interpretation is.....because it has to be something, hence yes, it is our fact for the moment.

Nope, not my views at all, they are the views of posters and links that have resulted from the various threads, combined with personal experience of several people. We have been backwards and forwards on most of the points you raised, many time before, as you have with Sheryl and others. We are NOT going for another iteration. My offer to you is to either, accept the interpretation as it stands presently in the document ,or provide clear and conclusive proof that individual components of what is written are incorrect, along with links from the RD to confirm what you say, or, accept that there is uncertainty surrounding the particular issue which is why it's on the list of unknows at the end. We will not turn this thread into another 230 page, 6,300 post thread that goes round in circles, people are going to have to be reasonable about this for the sake of others who want to know..

YOU, that's your job when you complete the tax return! It's YOUR job to tell the RD, via the tax return, what that WISE transfer comprised because only you know.

Thank you yet again for a highly useful contribution. I think a significant part of the problem is the RD use of the word, "income", who did not envisage remitted funds from overseas that might not be earnings but instead, savings or pensions. After all, Thai people might not be expected to have offshore savings accounts as a norm. For this reason I think in terms of all inbound funds from overseas as being assessible, which are then tested for exemption under RD rules, eg, before or after 1 January 2024, and then, tested against the DTA for further exemption possibilities, eg, US SSc exemption. What is left is assessible income that is applied to the tax form and is subjected to TEDA to determine taxable income.

Everyone needs to move on, this thread was never closed but it was locked for a period of time, it has also been open for a few days also yet the same old conversation persists. The reason it was locked was because it is over 6,300 posts long and newcomers to the thread were unable to find useful information easily. The simple tax guide has been produced and was pinned some time ago, it is being updated as new information comes to light. This thread exists for people to continue their discussions as they see fit. Lastly there is a large disclaimer on the top of the first page of the tax guide so that everyone who reads it, understands it was created by members for members and not by certified Thai legal or tax advocates. My I respectfully suggest that if you want to debate, that you debate and not consume more pages discussing yet again, past events that have been addressed.

The tax net comprises about 11 million people, those are people who file a tax return. Of that number, around 6 million people pay tax but only about 4% pay via a PAYE equivalent. Self employed tax status is the most common form of tax filer, these are people who work cash in hand and those who make and sell things and are able to manipulate their books, before a tax return is filed.

There are no such plans and it appears highly unlikely those things will be introduced

In trying to help AN members understand what will be required of the new tax system, a document has been produced that attempts to explain the Personal Income Tax system as simply as possible and this is linked below. The document explains that much is unknown and uncertain about the precise nature and format of the new rules, eg. what items from will be taxed, made exempt, what blanket rules will exist etc. Where facts are known, these are set out in the document, where things are not known, they are listed at the end of the document, awaiting further input from the Revenue Dept. Some of the things that are known at present include the fact that US Social Security payments, a form of old old age pension, is exempt by Treaty and cannot be taxed in Thailand. Conversely, the UK State Pension is not exempt from Thai tax under the dual tax treaty and can be taxed, UNLESS, a rule is introduced that confirms pension income received from countries that have a DTA with Thailand, will be excluded. At this stage, no such rule has been formally announced. https://aseannow.com/topic/1316818-personal-income-tax-guide-for-foreigners-thailand/#comments

The existing tax reporting system is geared towards Thai's who derive their income from onshore, it does not extensively cater to those with overseas earnings that may or may not be income and those that are subject to Dual Tax Agreements. The current forms and rules are being redesigned, as soon as we have sight of them, we will post them. In the meantime, the assumption is that the RD will consider many if not most overseas inbound funds transfers to be income, unless and until they are shown to be otherwise. This means you will have to complete a Thai tax return, assuming your income is above a low predefined level (120k Baht per year). At that point you will have some choices. You must declare anything that is actually income and explain anything that is not, eg savings, either by not declaring it because the money is exempt by RD definition or because a Tax Treaty says it is.

The thread was never closed. It was locked for a couple of days in order for the more focused thread on tax to achieve traction, the thread was subsequently unlocked and has been for some time.

I hope for everyone's sake that what you have suggested is correct and complete. But since at this time we cannot be certain it is, Point A in the list of unknows at the end of the document reads: A - The exact nature of the imported income taxation rules between the Thai RD and countries with whom it has DTAs But I do agree with what you have said here: "I am assuming, because I do not know, that all income remitted to Thailand will have to be checked to ensure that it complies with whatever the rules, regulations and reporting criteria are under CRS in compliance with The OECD' efforts in clamping down on Tax avoidance / evasion". That statement is in line with the point made above in response to another poster which said that all transfers are assessible income, until they are filed on a tax return and shown not to be assessible income, for one of a number of reasons such as exemption under a DTA or other RD rules. Once again, this is a wait and see issue that cannot be bottomed, until the RD speaks. For this reason, there is no point in debating such things here repeatedly although I am not against anyone wishing to continue to do so, in the existing debate in the long thread.

Para 23 of the document currently reads: Who must file a tax return? The English language translation of the RD rule says that, "You have to file a return on the income that you received if you meet one of the following conditions: (1) Your total income exceeded 120,000 baht in the tax year. (2) You were married and your income combined with that of your spouse exceeded 220,000 baht in the tax year." This is understood to mean assessable income. (Note: you had this debate with Sheryl to the point of exhaustion, in the long thread) https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/english_form/030265guide91.pdf The quote does not refer to earned" income, merely to income. In the case of foreigners' in Thailand who receive funds from overseas, the RD quote is taken to mean, received as well as earned. Those transfers are income until they are assessed in a tax return and shown to be otherwise. Additionally, Point A in the list of unknowns at the end of the document refer to issues that are unknowns and unclear, issues that require clarification from the RD. A. The exact nature of the imported income taxation rules between the Thai RD and countries with whom it has DTAs B. The conflicting need to file a tax return where zero tax is due (a nil return). C. International Gift Tax rules D. Tax status of funds remitted when not tax resident in TH E. Where does the top rate of tax band start, 4 mill or 5 mill? This thread has two choices. It can either, accept that those transferred funds are considered to be income, until they are assessed in a tax return and shown to be otherwise, or, accept the issue falls under Point A (above) listed at the end of the document. There is not a third option called, keep asking questions and challenging the point. (Note: the issue exists in both places, in para 23 and in the list of unknowns....belt and braces)

Everyone makes their own decisions on these things so they have nobody else to blame if it doesn't work as planned. Personally, I would not cheat on US or UK taxes because the risk vs the reward was never worth it. Similarly here in Thailand, why would a retiree or an expat married with family here, chance their future in Thailand over relatively small change. I wouldn't even consider it.

Please remember to keep your comments, very much on the right side of avoidance rather than evasion, this is seriously important.

But Self Appraisal and Self Assessment is always the way the system has been here and is the way it is intended to remain, I don't know about anyone else but I never imagined for one nano second there would be anything else. It is down to tax payer to decide whether to file or not, it is also down to them to decide what to declare or not. There will not be anyone else in that decision process, UNLESS somebody decides not file or not declare, and it become apparent that they haven't when they should have. By all means keep using dear departed Aunt Delores inheritance to account for your transfers, just be prepared to prove it is so, if/when the RD asks for more details.

I think we've all said broadly the same things, the identity of a card holder is capable of being found out but tracing them is the exception rather the rule, at present. Whether or not an investigation into tax evasion constitutes a serous crime is not unclear, I suppose it will depend on the scale and amounts of losses.

The list of unresolved issues at the end of the document is growing, here's what it looks like now: UNRESOLVED, CONFLICTING or UNCLEAR ISSUES A. The exact nature of the imported income taxation rules between the Thai RD and countries with whom it has DTAs B. The conflicting need to file a tax return where zero tax is due (a nil return). C. International Gift Tax rules D. Tax status of funds remitted when not tax resident in TH E. Where does the top rate of tax band start, 4 mill or 5 mill?

A full stop after the word "taxed" would have answered the point adequately! It would have been still been the wrong answer but it would have been nicer! Taxes on pensions depends on a range of factors including country of origin and type of pension, it also varies according the DTA that exists between the two countries.

Thank you, I appreciate your effort on this, lots of posters need to be doing the same things in respect of their countries tax rules.