Mike Lister

In the real world, the TRD or whoever would look at the income and spending pattern of the person who supposedly gifted the funds to his wife (but really received back under the table) and note that they had insufficient income or bank account transactions, to maintain the lifestyle they had. If somebody is spending cash, that can be seen because it means they are not spending via the traditional methods of bank account and card spending.

We disagree on this point but that's OK. The key point however is to understand whether such spending is considered to be assessable income, NOT whether it will be actively monitored or whether it should be reported on a return.

Let me play devils advocate with your post. The TRD has announced the rule change and has attended some Q&A sessions, along with some embassy briefings.....you've been told, what more can you reasonably expect? In the nanny state country where I come from, these types of rule changes would require personalised letters are sent to everyone, along with instructions and handboooks, all possibly years in advance. Thailand is not such a place, everyone has to try and work things out for themselves. The Thai tax system has been in place for years, not many people use it regularly but nevertheless, some do file tax returns. I hope to goodness that not too many locals are watching the reactions of foreigners to this simple rule change and all the angst and fretting that's taking place, otherwise they are likely to shake their heads in disbelief. The problem foreigners have with this of course is not just the rule change. The problem they have is moving from a perceived no tax environment to a taxed environment, that is a shock for many. The TRD is not going to track you to see how long you've been in the country and to see if you've filed a return, not yet at least. Those things are your responsibility to determine whether you need to act or not. If you do act, great, thanks for following the rules. If you don't act, well, downstream there may be consequences and if there are, you can't say you weren't told. Will they step up enforcement? I haven't read where anyone said they will, apart from members on AN who think they will. Do I think they will, absolutely I do, but that's just me. The TRD has a couple of choices: don't enforce the rules and hope that everyone plays ball and perhaps pick off a few offenders from time to time, as they present themselves. Alternatively, they can get serious about this, which means implementing tax clearance certificates to force compliance. I think the latter is probable.

The issue is not whether the Thai Revenue Department will or can track all transactions but whether those transactions are considered to comprise assessable income or not.

The probable answer to the question was researched and debated, not the tax! The debate comprised a number of forum members over weeks, including business, finance, banking professionals and two CPA's.

I strongly suggest you read the tax guide, all these answers are in there: COMINGLED FUNDS 1) Funds from various sources that are all contained in the same bank account are referred to as commingled funds. Trying to account for them separately can be difficult, unless you keep complete records that show the individual sources of those funds. Much of this comes down to individual discipline and the ability to retain and file receipts and statements. 2) Many tax authorities have policies regarding commingled funds, policies such as LIFO, (last in, first out) which is primarily an inventory management technique but could be used with commingled fund accounts. The UK says that capital and gain entering a mixed or commingled account, loses its identity and that any remittance from the fund, is income first, capital second. Yet another option might be that any remittance is viewed as comprising interest/gain or income first and capital second. We are not aware of the TRD policy regarding commingled funds or even if one exists. If you hold funds in this way, until such time as the TRD policy on this is made clear, you only have two options open to you. The first is to keep detailed records that describe all the feeds into the commingled account and hope that will be sufficient, or separate the sources into their own accounts.

That is not entirely correct and is no basis on which to conclude that credit card spending is not assessible income. The Introduction to tax says this: CREDIT CARD SPENDING USING FOREIGN CARDS 1) A series of interesting and useful debates have tried to determine if overseas credit card spending in Thailand by Thai tax residents, constitutes assessable income but they have been unable to decisively conclude. It is far from certain that such spending is not assessable and several factors lead us to believe it may be. The salient points in the debate include: a) It is irrelevant that the spending is done on credit, the taxable event occurs in Thailand when the buyer receives the goods or services they purchased and the seller is remunerated. b) The TRD is very unlikely to be interested in minor or small scale purchases made using foreign credit cards but is likely to be attracted by large expenses that are repeated every month. c) The core issue is likely to be the source of the funds used in the home country to settle the credit card bill and whether those funds are exempt or assessable. d) The TRD doesn’t care about credit agreements or debt in the card holders home country, only about the events that took place in Thailand and the funds used to facilitate them. e) Debt forgiveness may well be construed as receiving assessable income. f) Revenue authorities in several countries, including the UK, regard Credit Card spending as assessable income. 2) As more becomes clear on this point, we will update the guide accordingly. It's worth pointing out that many countries regard credit card spending as assessable income, including, in the case of non-doms, the UK.

That French video has caused more problems than it has solved. This is why we only allow English language content. It is possible to watch the video on Youtube and to toggle the language setting to obtain an English language translation. I did that and watched some of it but gave up because of the chaos it contained, as you have alluded to. The video has French and Thai tax people, debating the language used to interpret the DTA and failing to conclusively agree, yet continuing to debate without that agreement, it's nonsense. It's my view that everyone, apart from the French, will be better off not paying attention to the video. The argument that what is said in it will apply to all nationalities, not just the French, is fallacious because all DTA's are different. Secondly, you wrote, "There are many on AN, especially Mike Lister, who say don't worry, the DTAs will protect you". I don't believe I or anyone else has actually said that! What many of us have said is that a DTA should ensure that the same income is not taxed twice, by two countries. We didn't tell you not to worry and we didn't imply that a DTA will protect you from all manner of bad things, just that it should, if used correctly, prevent double taxation.

What I wrote was, "The first tax returns are capable of being filed from then onwards", not that a return must be filed then. That statement says, "capable of being filed", implying if the TRD allows them to be filed, prior to the end of the tax year and this remains uncertain. One strategy I've used in the past where I was leaving a country I'd worked in and I had an obligation to file a return, has been to visit a tax preparation/consultancy to prepare the return, whilst I was in country and had all the paperwork to hand and then leave the actual filing part to them, once the tax year had ended. However, six monthly tax returns are required in Thailand from the self employed plus other categories of taxpayer are required to file throughout the year so the facilities do exist to file a return before the end of the year. Whether or not that is allowed/required from transient foreign tax residents, I am uncertain, but I imagine it must be.

I see from all the deleted bickering posts overnight that the new thread is off to a flying start. Well done, the thread is well on its way to another 300 pages of nonsense! I previously wrote, "If you don't want to be Thai tax resident this year and you've been here all year thus far, begone by the 27th". I didn't think it was necessary to explain why a person might not want to become Thai tax resident, after all, the term tax resident isn't exactly a complex or obscure term that has hidden meaning. I felt that the reason was self evident, that this could result in a person being required to file a tax return, if they had exceeded the minimum income threshold. Of course, I could have spelled out all those things, but I thought the important part of the sentence was the date and that the average member would be able to work out the rest fairly easily. Apparently not everyone is able to do this so let me humbly apologise and spell out what I really should have said. If you don't want to be Thai tax resident and you've been here all year long thus far, begone by the 27th. This is because if you do become tax resident and you have exceeded the minimum threshold for accessible income, which is 60,000 baht for bank interest only or 120,00 baht if other income is included (220,000 for married people), you are supposed to file a tax return. But if you have exceeded the threshold but there is no tax to pay, some people may not need to file a tax return. This is because the fine for not filing a return where the thresholds have been exceeded is only 2,000 baht but there is no evidence the fine is actually levied. Nevertheless, not filing a return under those circumstances exposes the tax payer to TRD audits in the future for the past seven years, rather than the past three years, if the return had been filed. There, I hope that is a more satisfactory and complete explanation as to why the 27th June might be a significant date to remember.

The video is misleading, as Ben Zioner points out, the issue is one of translation which leaves much to be desired. This why the thread was locked, because we only allow English language content to avoid this issue. I do not believe you have anything to be concerned about, US SSc remains not taxable in Thailand, FWIW I also receive US SSc. Lastly, every DTA is different, no one meeting can speak to all DTA's.

There are no rules except one, the Gift must not be for the benefit of the gifter.

I am certain that the op is trying to be helpful by creating this thread but the reality is we have more tax threads than we need at the stage so some rationalisation is inevitable. The main tax thread is linked below, this thread will be closed.

Key Date 28th June 2024 is 180 days into the calendar year. The first tax returns are capable of being filed from then onwards. If you don't want to be Thai tax resident this year and you've been here all year thus far, begone by the 27th.

It seems to be so. Just make sure all the funds were earned before 1 January 2024 and that includes interest.

We do not believe that is possible in the short to medium term or even probable in the longer term.

This thread, the Tax thread Part I, has been running for 8 months, contains nearly 9k posts and has been viewed over 450k times. The thread is too unwieldy for members to usefully navigate hence for that reason is now closed. The discussions on Thai Tax will continue in Part II and this is linked here. Several other related tax threads exist and these are listed and linked below, this list will be updated as soon as new related threads are started. The Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand, initially referred to as the Simple Tax Guide, is here. Links to Thai Tax Consultancies is here. Legal Strategies to Reduce Thai Tax is here. Feedback from Revenue Contacts is here. A discussion on Gift Tax is here (to be created)

This thread is a continuation of what was previously known as the long Tax thread which is linked here. The old thread, Part I, has been closed because it had become too long and unwieldy for members to usefully navigate. Several related tax threads exist and these are listed and linked below, this list will be updated as soon as new related threads are started. The Introduction to Personal Income Tax in Thailand, initially referred to as the Simple Tax Guide, is here. Links to Thai Tax Consultancies is here. Legal Strategies to Reduce Thai Tax is here. Feedback from Revenue Contacts is here. A discussion on Gift Tax is here (to be created) A link to the TRD English language site, containing tax forms, instructions, tax guide and useful extracts from the tax code, here. Copies of all Dual Tax Agreements' here.

The French language video has already been posted and removed once because only English language material may be posted on the forum. Some members are unhappy with this decision but these are the forum rules. If anyone fluent in French and English wishes to provide a translation, we can consider that. The video only pertains to the DTA between France and Thailand, it cannot be extrapolated to be meant to include every other country, because all DTA's can be very different. The issue regarding taxation of pensions appears to result from a questionable translation of the DTA into English where the full meaning was not accurately carried across. The other issue is that the understanding of the French/Thai DTA, by TRD staff, appears less than perfect. I regret that this thread will have to be closed, until such time as we are able to obtain an accurate translation, which I will attempt to do.

Yes it would, there is nothing special about waiting three years before remitting the funds.

Two troll posts were hidden

Ah, yes.....hmmmm

Great minds think alike, that's exactly where I got to

That pretty much mirrors my diet, I find it quite satisfying to not eat crap food.

Ok, fair enough, we can modify that. It's still true that there will be no double taxation but there is a question about where the tax will collected et al, subject to the terms of. Individual dta s. Does that sound correct?