Mike Lister

As the man says, I can explain it to you but I can't understand it for you!

The value of the State pension varies from person to person, some are on the new full pension, others are on the old pension scale, you don't say which full pension. Many have only paid X number of years.......the differences can be very large. Lastly is exchange rates which can change the amounts yet again, based on when the funds are remitted. Thai tax deductions/allowances vary based on personal circumstances, married, kids, education fees, health insurance, life insurance, financial products etc, the difference can also be substantial, even if no dependents. Without that level of detail, it's impossible to say, there is no such thing as average in this.

I guess that was use with the emoji scottie, sorry, but I can't answer your question without that info.

I assume from what you have written that your only source of income in Thailand is the UK State pension, is that correct? Other questions include: How much do you receive, in Baht, each year or monthly, (approx is OK). Are you married in Thailand? Children? Do you pay for health or life insurance in Thailand?

I suggested that earlier and asked members from different countries who have been active in these tax threads if they were prepared to answer questions from other members from their respective country and prepare basic material for the tax guide. They all refused. Apparently it's easier and more fun to sit back and just snipe from time to time.

You quoted something, presumably the PWC handbook? It said: "The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there is any tax due": Then you wrote, "This completely defies logic". Later you asked a poster, aggressively, "so why the blazes file a Thai tax return", when that person had 640k of assessable income. Respectfully, you are a retired US cpa who lives in Thailand. PWC is a 1,600 person tax firm in Thailand that is one of the Big 4 Global Accounting Firms that employs 364,000 people globally. Who are we going to trust has the right answer and does it really matter that it defies your logic?

Is anybody else here picking up the same vibes of a strong community and team spirit and wanting to pitch in, share knowledge, participate and help other members! It's so touching. 😞

You seem to have recently created your own version of the things I have said but I'm not sure why that is. I replied to that poster by saying: " The first question is whether you actually need a TIN, do you/will you have taxable income in excess of the threshold this year? I understand you don't want to participate in the creation of the Simple Guide and that the obstructers are your posting chums, but really,....! If the answer is no, I'd wait until next year and do as advised".

I understand the sentiment and the reasons for doing what you tried to do but the reality seems to be that you don't actually need to request a TIN, in that respect, what you were told at the tax office is correct.

Presumably you do because your link says: Foreigners Repatriation of income Educational expenses Travel expenses Personal expenses Payment for goods Payment for services Gifts

Do you have a work permit?

So in other words, you want me to rewrite it and resubmit it, until you're happy with it! Hmmm! I did not even write or remotely suggest or even imply that the man in the street is an idiot, those are your words and your sentiment alone! I guess I'll waste a couple of hours scrolling back through this thread to try and find out where the offending para's were lifted from, whoa betide whoever it was!

The first question is whether you actually need a TIN, do you/will you have taxable income in excess of the threshold this year? If the answer is no, I'd wait until next year and do as advised. If yes and you plan to file a return, I'd take steps to get one. Which type of Revenue office did you go to in Jomtiem, District, Region or small local? The bigger the office, the more likely they are to understand the rules. But Jomtiem has such a high concentration of foreigners, it may be harder to obtain one there than other parts of the country so this is new ground for me. I can usually always get anything done that I need to at the District office in Chiang Mai but TIN's are only issued from the Regional office which is located elsewhere in town (at least that used to be the case). You may have been fobbed off because they can't issue you with one at that office and they didn't want to admit it. Assuming you have a genuine need and desire to file a Thai tax return next January, I would go to the biggest tax office in my area, armed with proof I am a year round resident and that there is a need to file a tax return. Asking for a TIN doesn't require a bank statement (which is another odd thing about what you wrote) but they may want to see proof that you have a legitimate need to file. You could say that you receive rental income in Thailand, along with money/income from overseas and that you need to file....stand your ground and go up the chain if need be. Perhaps others who have applied for TIN's at Jomtiem successfully, can comment?

Once again, if you are then you can ask questions here or you can PM me with them. One problem this thread has it that some of the loudest voices are the ones least willing to contribute to the construction of the guide, proof read it and submit or even propose content, or support posters such as yourself and answer questions from members, without being prompted. Maybe it's empty vessel syndrome or maybe it's just that they don't care about helping.

1) No, I am obviously not suggesting Thailand will violate any tax treaty but I think you understood that!! I can no longer recall where that came from but as I recall the intent was to say something to the effect that Thailand Revenue tax and the impact of DTA's on those imported funds, are not limited by home country domestic limits. 2) As an accountant, you understand that the funds have to be retaxed in order for a credit to be issued. If only the audience of the guide were all CPA's the job in creating the guide would be much simpler. Sadly that is not the case, the man in the street and the aged pensioner assume that the word reatxe means that money will be taken away, rather than given back. If you now wish to change the way those things are written, please give me a form of words that make you happy and I'll review them for inclusion in the next update, the existing words have only been in situ for three months without comment! If there's anything else you're not happy with, please let me know at the same time, type face, spacing etc included.

I have updated the Simple Guide with changes, discussed and agreed in the long thread, over the past few days. The changes are mainly to Capital Gains, Commingled Funds, Gift Tax and Overview of Tax Law. Some of the changes were things I missed previously whilst others represent new information. My apologies if this interrupts anyones reading, part way through.

Plus there is no wind movement in that bowl. Posters have always believed that as long as they can see burning nearby, that must be the main cause of the pollution. The idea that winds from neighbouring countries, combined with the geographics of Chiang Mai and its associated thermals, might be the major cause, is alien. It has been this way for at least twenty years but slowly the coin is dropping with some. Let's hear it for Shan State and Laos, contract farming and that Thai food group that is a proxy for Chinese maize growers..

The list of key points is taken from the Simple Tax Guide itself, it was put there so that most people will at least read the list, even if they don't read the entire guide. My purpose in listing them here is a proof read and a completeness check only. Your other points are noted, it's an issue the forum must deal with and hopefully the members will do so, rather than resorting to more extreme measures.

I have logged the following point at the end of the simple tax guide, in the list of unclear/unknowns: L) - two members do not believe that the Revenue Code is sufficiently explicit in stating who doesn’t need to file a tax return and instead only states who should! Most other members have been able to understand this issue but nevertheless, the search continues for a suitable form of RD words that will satisfy this point for everyone.

Below are what I think the key summary points are that arise from Simple Tax Guide and appear on the first and second page. The idea here is, as with any management summary, that readers will at least be able to ascertain the key findings without having to read the entire report. If you think something is missed off the list, please tell me. a) The Thai Revenue Tax Code is more domestic centric than international. Many aspects of Thai tax law that affect foreigners in Thailand are not well understood. Consequently, several knowledge gaps exist that are slowly being filled. b) The tax year is the calendar year which ends on 31 December, tax returns must be filed the following year, before 31 March. c) Only income remitted to Thailand is potentially taxable in Thailand, income that remains overseas is not taxable for foreigners. d) You must be present in Thailand for 180 days or more per calendar year before you are considered tax resident (a day can be as a little as a few minutes). e) There is no double taxation but some types of income may be taxed at a different rate, some lower, some higher or some not at all. f) Dual Tax Agreements exist between Thailand and over 60 countries, each is different, you must read and understand yours. g) The tax treatment of a person from one country, using a certain type of income, may not be the same as that of another person from a different country, using the same or even different type of income. DTA rules are country, person and income type dependent. h) Tax returns are filed using the honour system. You must declare your income, without any supporting paperwork and this will either be accepted or not, just as in the US and UK. If supporting evidence is required, it will be requested later. i) Income that is taxed overseas will not be re-taxed here. Tax paid on income overseas can be credited and used to offset any Thai tax assessment on the same income. This may result in a refund/credit of tax already paid, payment of additional tax, or nothing at all. j) Assessable income in Thailand may take many forms, bank transfers, cash, cheques, overseas debit card, ATM transactions etc and potentially, credit card transactions. k) Generous Tax Exemptions, Deductions and Allowances (TEDA) exist, along with a zero rated tax band, combine to create a significant tax free buffer for many tax payers. l) How you intend to use your imported funds in Thailand is of no concern to the RD and does not change the taxation of those funds. m) Not all aspects of Gift Tax are fully understood, similarly, the way that the TRD will treat partial remittance of overseas Capital Gains is not known. n) For the most part, the various tax treaties do not limit the extent to which pension, dividend, rental and interest income can be taxed by Thailand.

I'm not going to get drawn into an endless debate that can't possibly conclude, just because the TRD Tax Code doesn't contain a form of words in English that meets everyone's satisfaction! That was exactly the same class of argument that bogged down this thread last october and November when the same people argued that assessable income hadn't been properly defined and nothing could be done until it was! Then there was the argument whether Australian pensions could be taxed in Thailand and the true meaning of the word resident, arguments that continue until today, many months on. It's the sort of utter nonsense that stifles progress and is reflective of Civil Service bureaucratic attitudes. The Simple Guide states that it is a starting point for members to begin to manage their own tax affairs and is heavily caveated, it is not the Treaty of Versailles or a Supreme Court ruling! If any member is so concerned and can't figure out whether to file or not, go ask the Revenue or a paid for tax advisor, or simply wait. I fully intend to clarify the things that I can and fill the holes that can be filled, whist parking the things that I can't conclude. Folks are going to have to be grown up and mature, if that's possible. They can either accept the things that have been presumed and understood thus far and move on to the next challenge and make progress, or, spend lots of time being unproductive, arguing and going round in circles. I am 100% going to do the former, what everyone else does is up to them. But what I will agree to do is to lodge this issue in the list of unknowns/unclear at the end of the document.

I'm sorry once again to have to put you on my ignore list and to disregard anything further you have to say but I don't find your comments helpful, useful or constructive.

I don't think that some of these challenges or comments are either useful or constructive. The way the overview statement is written at present is more than adequate to get across the message that needs to be delivered at the start of the guide. Taxpayers are required to assess the funds they have received to determine if they are assessable to Thai tax and as long as the threshold is exceeded, file a tax return. There is no explicit statement to say they don't have to file a return if the obverse is true, if readers want to interpret things that way, that is fine with me but I'm not going to interpret it for them. PWC is a global tax firm with 1,600 tax people in Thailand and their guide supports what has been written so I'm quite satisfied the statements are suitable. I don't plan to make further changes to the overview statement unless somebody can produce a link that provides quotes and gives concrete reasons why I should. If people want to wait and see, that's fine too. OVERVIEW OF THE TAX LAW 3) Thai tax laws require Foreigners who reside in Thailand for one or more periods, with at least 180 days in one tax calendar year and who receive income from inside or outside Thailand via: a) Income from employment (wages, salaries, remuneration, etc.) assessable under Section 40 of the Revenue Code; b) Income from business operations is assessable under Section 40. c) Passive or property income (interest, dividends, rental income, goodwill, pension etc.) based on Article 41 paragraph 2 of the Revenue Code. ….…to assess their income for Thai tax and file a tax return, providing the assessable income threshold has been exceeded. Thai-sourced income is always taxable in Thailand, wherever it is received and regardless of tax residence status. Foreign sourced income is subject to remittance, tax residency and other factors such as terms of a DTA.

“All persons liable to tax are required to file a tax return”, See Page 23 of Price Waterhouse Tax Consultants Thailand hand book linked below https://www.pwc.com/th/en/tax/assets/thai-tax/thai-tax-booklet-2022-23.pdf “Liable to tax" in this context refers to a person’s general liability to taxation under the law of the territory and has a broader meaning than “subject to tax” (see paragraph 59) in that in certain circumstances tax may not be paid on all of the income, regardless of a person’s general liability, due to a particular exemption for a type of income or similar provision under the law of that territory. https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/liable-to-tax

No, I'm leaving altogether, byee!