Kilgore Trout

Of course there needs to be regulations to make sure that schools don't hire people who have no skills and no desire to gain skills. But skills aren't measured only by pieces of paper. Sorry to be self-centred, but again I bring up my own case:

I came to Thailand many years ago and found that I needed a teaching job to be able to stay. So I went and got one - easy, back then - no specific requirements needed. And I wasn't a very good teacher, either. But I have a philosophy of always doing something to the best of my ability, so I made a point of learning from my mistakes, my colleagues, and from some reading. Now I think I do a pretty good job - and most of my colleagues, bosses, students and their parents agree. But I don't have a degree, and so I have been told by the labour office that I won't be able to renew my work permit again.

This means that my 11 years of experience and my reputation count for nothing.

There needs to be some way of counting other forms of experience besides qualifications. I know several people like me that have left the country... and I'm to follow suit shortly.

You could have spent the past 11 years trying to get some kind of qualification though.

Nottocus - thats a very easy to make, obvious statement but it doesnt mean its wise. I'd take 11 years experience over an ornate piece of paper anytime. You only start really learning your stuff when you get into the real world. Preferring formal studies over extensive experience without looking further into the individuals ability is the easy way out and its hardly scientific or sensible in the current supply and demand situation Thailand faces in regards to teaching.

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There is a very good reason why formal training is required AS WELL as relevant experience.

Even with my training AND experience, my first few interviews at real schools in my home country were disasters.

Imagine being in a room with 10 teachers and administrators firing questions at you; you must be on your game.

The right applicant will be able to give good answers to all questions asked with regard to both the art(natural ability and experience) AND science (formal training, knowledge of pedagogy etc) of teaching.

If you want to have a real job, you must have real qualifications and experience.

But I do agree that the function of many "English teachers" at Thai schools should not require the training of a real teacher, as in many cases their job is not really "to teach."

American School of Bangkok just offered my friend 95k/month. Thats normal for top international schools. International schools that have all thai students give the same salary as thai private schools. About 60k/month depending in negotiation skills, CV, health plan etc..

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International school salaries in general:

Low teired schools- 40-70k per month

Middle teir schools- 60-100/120 per month (including housing benefits)

Top teir- 150-200+++ per month (including housing benefits)

Some schools also offer round trip air fare, shipping expenses, settling in allowance, insurance for family, yearly bonuses etc.

To answer KT in post #166.

Make up your mind, what are we discussing here, farang negro or hispanic?

Notice you chose to give a bodyswerve to the question, so will ask it again.

Is the word farang on its own offensive or not?

Having witnessed some of these farang kee nok KSR types and their mode of attire, farang kee nok sums them up to a tee.

Yes dirty farang is exactly what they are, not only are they dirty and unkempt, they usually stink as well.

Perhaps you can enlighten me and tell me how I should refer to them, hansum man?

That is a silly question

Is any word "on its own" offensive?

And to answer your other question; dirty hippie; hope that enlightens you as hippies come in all races; haven't you been to KSR??

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The reason "most" white people are not offended is because they don't possess the language skills to know enough about what is being said.

If they did, they most certainly would be offended in many situations.

My life, job and family are here; I'm not going anywhere.

Would you tell immigrants in the US during the Bush administration that if they didn't like his policies they should leave? Is that the kind of person you are?

I have the right to express my opinion, and I have the right to be offended by things without having to leave.

You are quite the fascist, aren't you?

What do you mean "they don't possess the language skills to know enough about what is being said"?

By the end of their first visit to this country, all but the most retarded white people will be perfectly aware of what the term "farang" means.

You spout more and more drivel with each and every reply and to think it's all fueled by your over-sensitivity to an innocuous term the locals used to describe people of your race.

If you feel so strongly, if your civil rights are so trampled upon, if it wounds you so, tell the Thais to stop using it.

I'm no fascist but as I've said more times than I can remember, if the locals used the word n****** in my earshot, every single day like they use the word farang around white people everyday, I would be on a plane out.

I would piss off because the Thais using it would be perfectly aware of the fact that the word is offensive to black people.

You think I don't know that Thais probably use another homegrown word to describe black people when there are no black people around? They most certainly do but the fact that I don't even know what it is suggests that they abstain because they think I'll find it offensive. For the most part, they don't enjoy offending people as you should know.

They use the word "farang" knowing for sure that white people don't find it offensive. They know this because NO WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TOLD THEM THEY FIND IT OFFENSIVE!!

Honestly, it's like talking to a freakin' child.

Anyway, go ahead, feel offended. Whinge on TV forums and look even more of a fool.

Now you are just getting silly. Just because you hear the word being said doesn't mean they understand the "context" in which it is used. I would have assumed you were bright enough to get that, but now you have shown me otherwise and I stand corrected.

I have always said that it depends on the context in which it is used which makes it offensive.

I seem to have your dander up; it appears I have some power over you. Calm down, take a chill pill and don't think about me and my emotions so much because I assure you; the feeling is not mutual.

I have always said that it depends on the context in which it is used which makes it offensive.

Jesus H, make your mind up will you, first its farang that offends you, now its the context being used.

Is the word farang on its own offensive or not?

The only times I hear it used on a derogatory basis its usually coupled with such compliments as, kee nok, kow san, etc etc. Every time I hear it used in such situations I agree with the user and its usage.

Usually when I hear it it either denotes ignorance or contempt. If someone says "I don't like falang food" ok, not too bad but then again if someone in my country said "I don't like Asian food" I would think they were pretty ignorant as well, what is "Asian food"? Don't they realize that it is not all the same?

What bothers me is the double standard; In my country Thais don't like to be singled out and treated differently because they are "Asian." I know this because I have worked with and know many Thais in my home city; Thais from rich, poor and middle class backgounds.

People should treat others the way they want to be treated; simple, reasonable, logical.

You said "The only times I hear it used on a derogatory basis its usually coupled with such compliments as, kee nok, kow san, etc etc. Every time I hear it used in such situations I agree with the user and its usage."

Translated directly "falang kee nok" is the same as saying "dirty negro" or "dirty hispanic" etc. If you were black or hispanic and I said that about you walking down the street in Bangkok would that be ok? Don't be a hypocrite now.....

I don't think you are understanding my point. Let me clarify

First off, it doesn't bother me that much; I have learned to live with it. What bothers me are people like you who defend the use of the word as socially acceptable.

What Thais do and talk about amongst themselves is their own business, I could care less if they call me a falang till the cows come home

However, when purposely catering to tourists and westerners; talking about "falang" like they are objects is offensive. If you are going to advertise your business as an international standard then you need to have staff who speak and behave in an INTERNATIONALLY appropriate way, not like the people you are serving and taking money from are aliens from a distant planet.

Thailand CLEARLY wants to be looked at well by the world's eyes and be a top notch INTERNATIONAL destination. They should act like it. Classifying and referring to people by their race in front of their face is just not OK. Not in Thailand, not anywhere.

Hope you see the difference.

Says you. Thais think differently. This is their place. They don't mean any harm by it, you personally don't get offended by it, so you're just giving them some free consulting advice about how to run their country, culture, language because some PC idiot foreigner choose to take offense?

It IS socially acceptable, this is their society and they get to make the rules.

The fact that "international standards" are getting shoved down each individual country's throat is IMO a huge problem in the world, much more so than this picayune BS.

It's the DIFFERENCES in the world that make life interesting, between the sexes, between races and cultures, between each-unique individual. Treasure them rather than trying to wipe them out and you'll enjoy your time on this spec of dust we call home a little more.

Advice on how to run their country? You are speaking drivel.

Using the term "falang" xenephobically is certainly not part of Thai culture as you would have it; it is however, a social phenomenon which will eventually die out as they develop as a society and become more globally aware, less nationalistic etc.

Also, you seem to be quite one sided; If a Thai person in the US complained that he was being talked down to by some Americans and felt offended, would you tell him the same; that he is a PC idiot foreigner?

Or would you listen, let him vent a little and tell him that's just the way people are sometimes, try not to take it too personally.

What would be even more bizarre, would be if he complained to another Thai and that person reacted the way you do. I'm pretty sure that would never happen though.

Like I said, if people are so offended, they really ought to leave.

Oh sorry, that's right . . . most white people aren't offended.

Something of an inconvenient truth for your argument, isn't it?

The reason "most" white people are not offended is because they don't possess the language skills to know enough about what is being said.

If they did, they most certainly would be offended in many situations.

My life, job and family are here; I'm not going anywhere.

Would you tell immigrants in the US during the Bush administration that if they didn't like his policies they should leave? Is that the kind of person you are?

I have the right to express my opinion, and I have the right to be offended by things without having to leave.

You are quite the fascist, aren't you?

What do you mean "they don't possess the language skills to know enough about what is being said"?

By the end of their first visit to this country, all but the most retarded white people will be perfectly aware of what the term "farang" means.

You spout more and more drivel with each and every reply and to think it's all fueled by your over-sensitivity to an innocuous term the locals used to describe people of your race.

If you feel so strongly, if your civil rights are so trampled upon, if it wounds you so, tell the Thais to stop using it.

I'm no fascist but as I've said more times than I can remember, if the locals used the word n****** in my earshot, every single day like they use the word farang around white people everyday, I would be on a plane out.

I would piss off because the Thais using it would be perfectly aware of the fact that the word is offensive to black people.

You think I don't know that Thais probably use another homegrown word to describe black people when there are no black people around? They most certainly do but the fact that I don't even know what it is suggests that they abstain because they think I'll find it offensive. For the most part, they don't enjoy offending people as you should know.

They use the word "farang" knowing for sure that white people don't find it offensive. They know this because NO WHITE PEOPLE HAVE TOLD THEM THEY FIND IT OFFENSIVE!!

Honestly, it's like talking to a freakin' child.

Anyway, go ahead, feel offended. Whinge on TV forums and look even more of a fool.

Now you are just getting silly. Just because you hear the word being said doesn't mean they understand the "context" in which it is used. I would have assumed you were bright enough to get that, but now you have shown me otherwise and I stand corrected.

I have always said that it depends on the context in which it is used which makes it offensive.

I seem to have your dander up; it appears I have some power over you. Calm down, take a chill pill and don't think about me and my emotions so much because I assure you; the feeling is not mutual.

If your taste goes to burgers, fish and chips or English food you are not qualified to comment on good restaurants

Well la tee dah; see you for caviar and champagne with Chad and Muffy at the country club

And how many people do you know that don't mind being referred to as "prostitute" whether directly to their face or to others?

I chose an extreme example specifically to make my point. In fact I have had very open and honest discussions about the sex trade with hundreds of sex workers, and none have had any problem with calling a spade a spade, most likely because they realise I respect their choices and don't put a moral judgement on them.

Those girls who are financially motivated but not explicit sex workers would of course get upset, because Thais don't consider gold diggers to be prostitutes, in that case the actual meaning of the word is up for dispute.

In this case farang has a totally clear meaning - which unfortunately many people coming here often don't understand. So job one is to clear up that misunderstanding.

Next is to point out that to the extent there actually IS any derogatory meaning in a given context, it's very rare and coming from the fact that the speaker doesn't like farang for whatever reason, not anything inherent in the word from a linguistic POV - unlike the N-word for example.

The final issue, which you have outlined so clearly, is that some people think it's just not appropriate to use racial classifiers in public.

My response to that is "I don't agree" and obviously neither do the Thais, and trying to impose your view of morality and PC on others by trying to change the language they use is wrong and idiotic.

I can just imagine how the Thais would react in the US if Americans used the word "Chinaman" toward Thais in the way and with the frequency that Thais use "falang" in Thailand.

In addition; you would be berated and have respect lost by most other Americans who heard.

Most people in the US I know bend over backwards to treat foreigners just like everyone else and to make sure they feel comfortable.

Then you associate with a pretty refined and considerate subset of Americans. My experience is very different, especially toward other races and religions.

I know Muslim families that have been here for many decades, and they certainly aren't being treated well since 9-11.

And your example of a phrase being insulting because it is inaccurate has nothing to do with Thais using farang accurately. Substitute Asian and your point goes away.

And how do you think a group of people....let's say a Thai, a black American, and a hispanic would react if when lining up to order food, one server said to another (in front of said group) "you serve the black, I'll get the hispanic and the Asian"?

Something tells me they would not be too amused, but perhaps where you are from is different.

Yes, but you're talking about America. This is Thailand. Things are different here. By not accepting that fact you are IMO being far ruder than any Thai innocently being what you call "racist".

Thais eat bugs, spiders, larvae, snakes sometimes dogs. Thais in business where prices aren't marked try to extract the best price, taking advantage of the buyer's ignorance. Thais ask for a dowry if you want to marry their daughter. Thais are not bothered by, and often enjoy very loud noise and don't care if it affects the neighbors. Thais pick their nose in public. Thais are rabidly nationalistic and stick up for each other against outsiders without caring about who is "right". Thais are very classist and yes it is true somewhat racist.

So what? This is their country, they have the right to act as they like, visitors should just accept these differences and thank god every place isn't the same as back home.

More to the point, using "farang" as a vocabulary word to refer to caucasians isn't in itself racist at all. Sometimes it is used in a way that is meant to be offensive, but just recognizing the fact that we are bizarre aliens isn't.

They call me fat and old to my face, these are objectively true, and if not meant to be derogatory - which I know enough to spot the difference then I have learned to not take offense.

Taking offense is much worse than giving it, no one can give it unless you choose to take it.

Re-read your post and see if you can spot the contradictions. I can't be bothered to do it for you.

I don't think you are understanding my point. Let me clarify

First off, it doesn't bother me that much; I have learned to live with it. What bothers me are people like you who defend the use of the word as socially acceptable.

What Thais do and talk about amongst themselves is their own business, I could care less if they call me a falang till the cows come home

However, when purposely catering to tourists and westerners; talking about "falang" like they are objects is offensive. If you are going to advertise your business as an international standard then you need to have staff who speak and behave in an INTERNATIONALLY appropriate way, not like the people you are serving and taking money from are aliens from a distant planet.

Thailand CLEARLY wants to be looked at well by the world's eyes and be a top notch INTERNATIONAL destination. They should act like it. Classifying and referring to people by their race in front of their face is just not OK. Not in Thailand, not anywhere.

Hope you see the difference.

Like I said, if people are so offended, they really ought to leave.

Oh sorry, that's right . . . most white people aren't offended.

Something of an inconvenient truth for your argument, isn't it?

The reason "most" white people are not offended is because they don't possess the language skills to know enough about what is being said.

If they did, they most certainly would be offended in many situations.

My life, job and family are here; I'm not going anywhere.

Would you tell immigrants in the US during the Bush administration that if they didn't like his policies they should leave? Is that the kind of person you are?

I have the right to express my opinion, and I have the right to be offended by things without having to leave.

You are quite the fascist, aren't you?

width=32 alt=cheesy.gif pagespeed_url_hash=3951237149> I can just imagine how the Thais would react in the US if Americans used the word "Chinaman" toward Thais in the way and with the frequency that Thais use "falang" in Thailand.

In addition; you would be berated and have respect lost by most other Americans who heard.

Most people in the US I know bend over backwards to treat foreigners just like everyone else and to make sure they feel comfortable.

Apples and pears and you know it

I might be able to empathize with you wretched victims of racial abuse if ALL of you could actually agree that the word "farang" is offensive but you can't even do that, can you?

Honestly, if white people feel so bloody aggrieved by the word "farang", then start telling Thais - vocally and to their faces - to stop using it. Why not start banging the lights out of every Thai who persists in using it within earshot after being warned?

I mean, I know what I would do if every local in this country called me a nigger - a genuinely derogatory racial slur - I'd be on a plane out in seconds, bro.

<deleted> are you whinging saps still doing in Thailand if you're being so cruelly abused by the locals?

That's a serious question; let's have some answers

I don't think you are understanding my point. Let me clarify

First off, it doesn't bother me that much; I have learned to live with it. What bothers me are people like you who defend the use of the word as socially acceptable.

What Thais do and talk about amongst themselves is their own business, I could care less if they call me a falang till the cows come home

However, when purposely catering to tourists and westerners; talking about "falang" like they are objects is offensive. If you are going to advertise your business as an international standard then you need to have staff who speak and behave in an INTERNATIONALLY appropriate way, not like the people you are serving and taking money from are aliens from a distant planet.

Thailand CLEARLY wants to be looked at well by the world's eyes and be a top notch INTERNATIONAL destination. They should act like it. Classifying and referring to people by their race in front of their face is just not OK. Not in Thailand, not anywhere.

Hope you see the difference.

Yes is it an innocent descriptor of race, equivalent in every way to "caucasian", which is used by police and officialdom every day in farangland.

Thanks! I always thought it wasn't a particularly 'nice' term (like gaijin) but now I see its not.

And a hundred out of 10 for all the TV geniuses born knowing what farang means.

And how do you think a group of people....let's say a Thai, a black American, and a hispanic would react if when lining up to order food, one server said to another (in front of said group) "you serve the black, I'll get the hispanic and the Asian"?

Something tells me they would not be too amused, but perhaps where you are from is different.

Then we come to the topic of racism. Some people feel that there shouldn't be ANY acknowledgement of race in day-to-day conversations. Well, sorry Thais are very racist as a culture, not much can be done about that. In the case of us honkeys however, we BENEFIT from that racism much more than suffer from it, often being accorded a much higher class/status than we should get in reality. Petty overcharging issues certainly pale in comparison to the general contempt offered to African/middle-Eastern/Indian people here, so stop whingeing and suck it up, that's not RACISM. Plus most of us being males are also taking advantage of their ingrained patriarchal patterns, so stop whingeing and suck it up!

Given so many TV members of a certain age cite "political correctness gone mad" as one of those "annoyances" they couldn't wait to leave back in the West, isn't it sickeningly hypocritical that they should expect the Thais to practice it for the sake of their petty sensitivities.

Not content with the privileges they enjoy here purely by dint of their relative wealth and skin tone, they now want the Thais to stop using "farang".

Personally, I'd encourage the Thais to use a different F-word when telling these idiots where to get off.

Farang always have a double standard to how they treat others and expect to be treated.

Get called a small silly name complains like he was a slave beaten by the kkk.

Meanwhile a thai in a farang country can get insulted or mocked or attacked by racist farangs at almost anytime and they probably don't even whine half as much as the farang here.

Can some of you explain why do you have such an attitude?

Where you have racist mind you racist names created to specifically insult a race of people like nigger for example but don't really think too much about it but take the biggest offence at the smallest thing but expect others to suck it up.

I can just imagine how the Thais would react in the US if Americans used the word "Chinaman" toward Thais in the way and with the frequency that Thais use "falang" in Thailand.

In addition; you would be berated and have respect lost by most other Americans who heard.

Most people in the US I know bend over backwards to treat foreigners just like everyone else and to make sure they feel comfortable.

Yes is it an innocent descriptor of race, equivalent in every way to "caucasian", which is used by police and officialdom every day in farangland.

If you associate with disrespectful people in geographic areas and industries that make their living catering to foreigners, especially those in the business of scamming them, you may well hear people use the term with tones and facial expression implying contempt.

Just like angry poor people will use "rich folk" as a pejorative.

However both from a pure linguistic POV and 99.99% of the time in Thailand, it is used meaning no disrespect at all.

Note that Thais often use such "objectifying" labels rather than names when talking about people, even in their presence and in some cases when addressing them directly - we are all familiar with "pi" and "nong", "uncle" "fat guy", "old guy" etc used in place of names.

Again this is a feature of the Thai grammar, not an indicator of disrespect. If your family members referring to you as "the farang" in their conversations bothers you, politely ask them to use their name instead. They will think you're weird, but this is only one of hundreds of ways we're weird and they're used to us being weird, but if you remind them a gazillion times, those that are invested in your not getting irritated at them may well comply with your weird wishes.

Then we come to the topic of racism. Some people feel that there shouldn't be ANY acknowledgement of race in day-to-day conversations. Well, sorry Thais are very racist as a culture, not much can be done about that. In the case of us honkeys however, we BENEFIT from that racism much more than suffer from it, often being accorded a much higher class/status than we should get in reality. Petty overcharging issues certainly pale in comparison to the general contempt offered to African/middle-Eastern/Indian people here, so stop whingeing and suck it up, that's not RACISM. Plus most of us being males are also taking advantage of their ingrained patriarchal patterns, so stop whingeing and suck it up!

Guava were apparently brought to Thailand by European traders in the 16th-17th centuries, most likely the Portuguese, so just like we call little oranges "mandarins", Thais named the fruit after us, not vice-versa.

The word itself is most likely derived from the Franks, who dominated Europe from the 6th century on - you've probably heard of Charlemagne? This of course is not equivalent to "French", but definitely related, there was no "French" language or nation until many centuries later, long after the Franks were involved in conquest and crusades stretching into the territories where Pali and Sanskrit developed, and many many languages in the regions between there and here use this word to label white people of European descent.

Of course all this is just scholarly opinion and theory, no one really knows.

But it remains a fact that linguistically the word "farang" is in itself not pejorative, any more than the word "prostitute" is. Some people may dislike the class of people labeled with the term and therefore they USE it pejoratively, but the word itself has no such meaning, the emotional connotations must be inferred by context.

And how many people do you know that don't mind being referred to as "prostitute" whether directly to their face or to others?

How do you think someone would react if when they walked in the door another person said "the prostitute just walked in the door?"

Don't think telling them that it is not a pejorative term would do you much good

The champions of democracy at work ....

Suthep's government by thuggery. Surely they could have just waited a wee while for the gentleman's impeding re-education camps.

It is democracy at work; majority rules, Thai style

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The US Gov. know about all that issues mention, but they don't care.

There isn't a true Democracy in US either with 2 Party system, or State in State system (NSA).

It's all about INFLUENCE and POWER

What is a "true" democracy?

In an absolute democracy if the majority deemed that the minority should be killed then that would be right, just and correct.....according to the principles of "democracy."

There is no such thing as a "true" democracy as we know that it would never work. The majority is sometimes wrong.

What we are hearing is all just rhetoric, and has nothing to do with "democracy."

Wherever one is from, one might need to react in whatever manner suits the circumstances they find themselves.

If you arrive home to find some punk walking out your door with your TV, one might be wise to simply tell the person to piss off.

If one awakes to a confrontation with an armed person, circumstance might dictate a different course of action.

Even in the scary old USA, one can't simply shoot a burglar and not face legal scrutiny and/or consequences.

Depending on the state; YES YOU CAN! In Texas for example; if someone steps one step on to your property, whether they are armed or not, whether they intend to rob you OR NOT; you have the legal right to shoot them dead on the spot, with absolutely no consequences whatsoever so long as you can prove that you thought you were in imminent danger. Known as "castle" doctrine.

There was recently a few example cases.

You will also be hit with customs when they arrive.

Possibly more than 100% of the stated value.

"He condemned the attack, saying the bomb attack was tantamount to attack the prehistoric place"

Prehistoric place??? Does he live in a cave?

You have two options:

1. Choose a dish that is not made with chilli such as Fried Rice (Khaw Phad) with Chicken (Khaw Phad Kai), pork (Khaw Phad Moo), prawns (Khaw Phad Kung) or Noodle dishes (Khew tiou) with Chicken, Pork,

Prawn.

2. You can explain that you don't like spicy

Click the highlighted links and then the speaker icon, you can learn how to pronounce in Thai.

Sorry not very comprehensive suggestions, but will keep you away from 7-11 and McDonalds for a few days

Haha thanks, But I went to a local eatery this morning and I had a khaw phad kai, and didn't enjoy it one bit as I said I don't like rice, I am trying lol that is the reason why I posted this after I ate breakfast, I was just looking at the rice and thinking I would kill for an English breakfast haha, But the soup that came with the dish was very good, I only ate half the rice dish and I struggled with that....

Just eat mcdonalds every day, they now have breakfast.

Scottish food is good for you

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No. I think it means that during their travels they don't spend a lot in airports or layovers etc but when they reach their destination that they start to spend more. Fairly simple I think.

Where would you possibly get that they think they are "far superior" from this news article? Maybe they don't have the kind of money that many of us from 1st world countries have and good jobs to come back to so they are just more careful how they travel?

Doesn't take much to get you going does it?

Err no, the ones that travel have more money than you and don't work

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Wish there was; I would kill for a Lou Malnati's pizza!

Most here doesn't even stack up to the crap on a cracker they call pizza in New York. (hope you are reading this John Stewart!!)

Do you mean a driving license for a "non-Thai national"?

There is no such thing as a "falang licence" just as in your country I'm sure they don't issue "asian licenses."

Get your vocabulary straight; hope that is helpful enough for you