bamboozled

So....I have no idea why some people are getting international transfers and some not.

Just to flog the dead horse...another email and response between myself and Wise. Me: "Hello Laura, Thank you for your reply. I’m sure you’re aware of the following info by now as it’s an issue for many expats living in Thailand. For obtaining a visa to stay in the country, we need to show immigration that we have a certain amount of money coming into our account every month. And it is necessary that it shows as a foreign transfer; that the money came from outside of Thailand. This is to show immigration that we have money to support our lifestyle here. In the past, I have tried to use a credit advise/FET but immigration would not accept that as proof, even showing the paper trail from the money coming out of my US bank, being sent to Wise, showing up in Kasikorn as a foreign transfer (or Bangkok Bank or Deemoney) and then being sent to another bank account I was using at the time here in Thailand (not Bangkok Bank but SCB). I opened the Bangkok Bank account specifically so I could receive the transfers as international. I can use SWIFT but that is much more expensive not to mention slow. If there is some notation that can be made that my transfers to my Bangkok Bank account need to show as international, yes, please, I confirm that I would like to set this up. I realize that this can delay the transfer somewhat and so it may not arrive in seconds but can be days. That’s not a big issue for me as the correct international transfer proof for immigration/visa is MORE important. Also, if transfers to my other bank account on file, SCB, can continue in the normal way, that transfers are often only seconds in the making, that would also be valuable to me. If we can set this up for today, May 31st, I can make a transfer (international) that will suffice for my visa obligation. As it stands, the transfers I made this month so far won’t qualify and this puts me in a big bind as I need to show this money coming in every month for twelve months continually. If one misses a month, one must start over. And visas are for a one year to missing a month of transfers can, in effect, result in having to leave the country. Not ideal when one’s life and family are here. Please advise on what we can do/what I need to do. Thank you very much." Wise: "Thank you for reaching out to us. If you want to send international transfers, these need to go through the SWIFT international payment network. USD is sent to bank accounts outside the US only via the SWIFT payment network. This is different from a regular Wise transfer and could take a day or 2 longer. It also costs a bit more because it goes through intermediary banks, but is still cheaper than more traditional methods of sending money overseas. If you have any other questions, let us know Kind regards Claudia, Wise"

And here is another email I sent to Wise and then following it their response. Me: " Hello, my recent transfers have arrived as local transfers and not international, including the one today. In fact, everyone this month whereas the ones last month were international. For visa purposes, I need the transfer to be international. Is there a way to change there to international or is there a way to know if future transfers will be local or international? Immigration, in my past experience, will not accept a bank advise or FET. This caused me a huge headache years ago and I thought I had solved this by opening up a Bangkok Bank account and sending the money there and not my SCB account. Last month was fine but as stated, this month they have all appeared as local transfers. Please advise. (and yes, I labeled them as "funds for long term stay" and even tried one as "funds for buying property" but without positive results.)" Wise response: " Thank you for getting in touch. When you send a transfer with the local currency (THB) the transfer is a local transfer. This is because of how Wise works: with us when you send a cross-currency transfer (USD to THB), you pay to our USD account in the US and we send out the equivalent from our THB account located in Thailand. Like this money never actually cross the borders so the transfer arrives earlier than traditional bank transfers. International transfers are the ones when you receive a global currency (like USD, GBP or EUR) to your account, when the currency you receive is not the local currency. If you want to send international transfers, these need to go through the SWIFT international payment network. Here you can read more about sending USD to countries outside the US. However Bangkok Bank (BBL) & Kasikorn Bank (Kbank) are capable of showing transfers as international transfers if we are sending through these banking partners. We can help you to route your payments via your desired payout partners, however we can't promise that the payments are definitely going to be paid out with the partner you chose. It can happen that there is an unforeseen scenario where a certain partner might be facing a technical issue. In this case the system will route the payment via another available partner to ensure same day delivery. Please, confirm if you'd like us to set this up for you and which partner you want to choose. Looking forward to hearing from you. Best wishes, Laura"

Email from Wise after my call on May 30: " Following up on your call with us. As promised I'm sending you additional information about THB transfers not being marked as international transfers and what to do in this situation. If your transfer was not marked as International Transfer (even if you selected Funds for long term stay in Thailand or Purchase of Property for the transfer purpose) please contact our respective bank partners to get an FET form. See instructions below for Bangkok Bank and Kasikorn bank. We aren't authorized by the Bank of Thailand to issue FET forms. It’s because of how we work: when you send money with us, we use our Thai banking partners to send out your money locally. It doesn’t cross any borders, so it doesn’t show up as a foreign transaction. How can you get a FET form? The recipient needs to ask for a FET form from the partner bank that we paid your money out from. You can check which bank this is on your transfer receipt. To find it: Go to the transfer in the Activity section of your Wise account Click View transfer details Click Download PDF receipt Go to the second page to find banking partner details Transfers sent via Bangkok Bank How to contact: For a customer who maintains an account with Bangkok Bank: contact Bangkok Bank branch where you maintain the account. For a customer who maintains an account with another local bank in Thailand and if your funds transfer was sent through Bangkok Bank as an intermediary bank: Contact Bangkok Bank Head Office branch via their call centre between during banking hours If you're located in a provincial area, you can contact your local Bangkok Bank branch to help you coordinate with the Bangkok Bank Head Office branch Documents needed by Bangkok Bank: Passport of the recipient Evidence of transferring funds with Wise Savings passbook or statement of the account showing the international funds transfer transaction Credit Advice Receipt of the bank (if any) If your funds transfer purpose are for buying property in Thailand: Sales Purchase Agreement for the condominium in Thailand Once Bangkok Bank has checked these documents, they’ll issue a confirmation letter to the recipient. They can then use this to prove that the money came from abroad. Bangkok Bank may charge an administration fee. Transfers sent via Kasikorn Bank If the transfer was sent out by Kasikorn Bank, the recipient needs to go to their nearest Kasikorn Bank International Trade centre. They’ll need to bring: their Bank Savings Passbook or statement showing the transaction their passport their visa (if applicable) Kasikorn Bank may charge an administration fee. SWIFT transfers Sometimes, we might send your transfer through a different banking partner who can’t provide a FET. This might be because of a technical issue, or some other unforeseen event. If you know you definitely need a FET, it’s best that you send a SWIFT transfer with your bank this time. SWIFT is a more expensive method, because it’s not a local transfer. But it does mean you’ll be able to prove that the money came from abroad. You can find more information about THB transfers here. Hope you find this helpful. Let us know if you have any questions. All the best Max from Wise"

Yup. Not much of it does.

You never really no your exposure until you get your legs get taken out. And then hindsight is 20-20. Digital nomad is possible but I would like to hire some help/workers and without a legal business it would worry me.

Well, that's very reassuring. Hmm, you have to do that each month and not just once right before going to Immi and get them all at the same time? Not terrible to do this but a bit of a PITA. I actually tried this a couple years ago to no avail. I was transferring to an SCB account and the Wise transfers went through 3 different banks, Kasikorn, Bangkok Bank, and Dee Money in Bkk. I spent a lot of time and some money getting all the credit advices (misleading name) from the 3 different banks. Granted it turned into a big pack of paper and I had plenty of other transactions in my SCB account. However, I high-lighted all the transfers to make it clear. Immi wasn't having it. They wouldn't even look at it. So I was forced to scramble. It's silly, of course, when not only can I show the corresponding monies exiting my US account and then showing up seconds later in my Thai account but where else would this money be coming from? Sure, I could have an illegal business in Thailand but the chances of that are slim. Well, par for the course for immigration dept. around the world. They don't want to make it easy.

Didn't make a diff in Bangkok Bank, either. Not in my account.

Oh right, sorry, mixed up my posters! Really, only $10 for a foreign transfer? From which country? That is very cheap, I'm surprised. I will look into it, for sure! Thank you.

I remember the Wise fee for SWIFT was low enough. But there are also the fine print speaking about the fee from the sending bank. I didn't check it but from prior years having sent money via SWIFT the rate is pretty high. Like sending Western Union. I would love to be wrong!

That's from Wise, right? How about from your home bank side?

It's a shame that one has to start out right from the gate with a lot of money or it's a no-go. No chance to ease into it as the set-up fee alone is high. Thanks so much for your help.

Because it's more expensive. But yes, you have a point. Just in a year of doing that you've spent $500 more in transfer fees than you would have with Wise.

Yes, exactly what I am saying. I chatted with the rep and they said I could not tag the account for international transfer, as OJAS suggested. This is when I had opened the Bangkok Bank account and the first transfer showed as international. After that, only local. And the bank it came from was Kasikorn. So I opened a Kasikorn account. And it still says local transfer with the local bank being, wait for it: Kasikorn. This is with "Funds for long term stay in Thailand." I don't get it.

Perhaps that paperwork is inexpensive but I think Gwapo is right that there are many other things that must be paid for to keep everything legal. The bar is far too high for me, unfortunately.

Yes, that's about what I thought/remember, Gwapo. It's a shame it's not easier to open a business as it would give gainful employment to a few people. I'll have to put my thinking cap back on. What I really need is to be reborn Thai. Problem solved. Thanks everybody for the input. Bam

...I should have added that I had done a check-up a year prior and that tumor wasn't there. So, because I went for regular check-ups it was caught very early and was only at a beginning stage of development, prior to when the cancer cells would have been likely to travel. The tissue surrounding the tumor was biopsied and no cancer found. I was very lucky and that luck was helped along by having the regular check-ups. Heck, you can't check for everything but for $200, the cost of the check-up, might as well.

Thanks for the reply, Gwapo. Yes, I'm from USA. Doesn't the special treaty involve companies with a fairly substantial investment such as 100s of thousands of dollars? I seem to recall figures that were far above what I have to invest. Basically, I want to sell online to North America and Europe but need to hire one or two people to do the shipping/organizing/stock keeping, etc... So I don't need to do that work but would over-see it and give direction. I do remember from looking into this in the past that because we are foreigners, there is no inexpensive way to start a business here. "Inexpensive" is all relative but I am not a rich guy. Hmm, I'm married now to a Thai but not for much longer. I will need 4 Thai employees, accountant, social security, pay myself 50k, and all that jazz? The million baht has to be deposited in an account some where, correct? It wasn't ever necessary to show that money when I had the business years ago. To be clear, I had incorporated that business just to be able to legally invoice my expenses to another business that I was part of in Italy. Legally, it was my Italian partner's and I wasn't on any documents...being American. It didn't cost much to start at the time. But I never had to hire anyone or bill anyone so there were many aspects I didn't learn about.

As per the title, as a foreigner, can we own a business, finance that business, but not "work" in it? I'm pretty sure there are plenty of folks doing this, especially restaurants/bars, but when I run it through my mind I can't quite figure it. Is it that the foreigner owner has a Thai partner? Otherwise, how could the business be a legal entity? And does that matter? Certainly, there are plenty of locals running businesses and hiring employees but they are not registered. But I don't think that would be a good idea for a foreigner. Are there agents to help with this? Hmm, now that I jostle my memory, I suppose that's what I did about 15 years ago. I had set up a business and my lawyer and a Thai friend were the partners. I held 49% and the two of them split the other 51%. At the time, 1,000,000 baht registered collateral was needed but it was just on paper and didn't need to be coughed up. I think one can no longer get away with that and that the money needs to be deposited. I could be wrong. Interesting side note... This business I had set up eventually lay dormant for at least 3 - 5 years as it wasn't needed any longer. My lawyer advised me to close it as I still had to pay him to do yearly accounting, etc... If I remember, he wanted 30k or 40k to close it: "oh, we have to do this, that, the other thing, it's complicated." This was 10 years ago, or so. That seemed like a lot. In the end, my wife and I went to some government office and closed it ourselves. Total cost? 150 baht. Is a work permit needed in such an instance? I think not...as one is not technically "working" but just an owner. So, perhaps I answered my own question but if folks would care to weigh in, that would be appreciated. Any people running a business legally as described above? Thank you, Bamboozled.

That doesn't seem to matter in my case. I have always clicked, "For long term stay". I'm not really sure why Wise even has that menu. I think it's for our own memory. I have tried transferring 50 bucks and clicking on every option for reason for transfer and nothing ever changes. I chatted with a Wise rep and they said they cannot guarantee which bank they will use nor if it will be recorded as international or local. Again, not sure why some folks have zero issue with it showing international. Perhaps depends on what bank international bank it is fished from?

I went for a routine check-up and what turned out to be a cancerous tumor in my bladder was discovered during the ultrasound. A procedure not done in the US for standard health check-up. I think the check-ups are a smart move. Up to us to parse the results and recommendations, I would say.

I have the same problems. I had SCB bank but that's not one of Wise's transfer banks so was always a local transfer. So I opened a BKK Bank account as that IS one of the banks they use for international transfers. First transfer with Wise was international and after that local via Kasikorn. Wise said they can't guarantee who they will use. So I opened a Kasikorn account. Now it says local transfer and the partner is listed as Kasikorn. Can't win. I don't get it. My buddy uses Bkk Bank and has no issues with it showing as international transfer. Wise has been no help. I tried a year or so ago showing the bank "advice" which shows the paper trail and which Wise claims will help with Immi. Immi wouldn't accept it. One can transfer with Wise via bank transfer and I'm not sure the fees from Wise but you will incur a wire fee from your UK bank. But they do say it will show as international. Good luck.

I wonder if that's the one that closes last...meaning it is the first one that is opened. That is, the vertical lip of the right-hand door sits on top of the left-hand door. So the first door to open and pin back would be the right. ...Just a thought.

I just did a successful visa run today. Drove my car to Chiang Khong Friendship Bridge, parked on the left about 200 meters from immi, walked over to Thai passport control, no problem, smiles, stamped out...super quiet. Bought my 25 baht ticket for the bus across the bridge and waited only 5 minutes. Crossed the bridge, got off the bus, and at the Laos immi go to the right side it says Visa on Arrival on a small office window. I told the officer I was just getting a stamp and going back and he said 1800 baht. I said $40 USD ok? He said, no, not if you're just going back straight to Thailand and not entering the country (Laos). I didn't have to fill out anything nor give a photo nor walk through passport control. I paid the 1800 baht, he stamped me both in and out (two stamps) and I got back on the bus to Thailand. Word of caution, on re-entry to Thailand I was given only 30 days instead of 90 for Non-O visa. Luckily, I checked after receiving my stamp and pointed it out and the immi officer was very apologetic. I guess she didn't see the visa number on the TM6. She corrected it and hopefully all the scribbles and crossed out dates don't rear their ugly heads in 90 days. Again, very quiet on the Thai side, too. I will say, the Thai immi there is very friendly. Was the same experience 6 months ago when I was there. Good luck humans!

Anyone have any new news on this? That border run company still says closed. Or rather they haven't posted anything about it being re-opened so I'm assuming still closed but who knows if could re-open as quickly as it closed.