oldcpu

5 hours ago, Tod Daniels said:

Also just so you know the consulates set the pricing for the visa too 😮 
DTV COST
USA - 400 USD 
Australia - 600AUD
United Kingdom - 300GBP
HCMC/Hanoi - 340USD
Vientiane/Savannakhet - 10k baht 
New Zealand - 2,000 NZD
Ottawa/Vancouver - 650CAD
Kuala Lumpur/Penang/Kota Bharu - 1,600 Ringgit

 

New Zealand $2,000 NZD?  That is close to $1200 USD equivalent.   Could that NZ price be a typo?  It reads to be totally out of proportion compared to the other prices. 

1 hour ago, couchpotato said:

Of course that's the point.. read my above post.

 Yes - and if you had read my very 1st post you would have read:

" I have not encountered the situation you are in, but I do note in some immigration offices (such as Phuket) when applying for an extension on a Type-OA visa (for reason of marriage to a Thai) require proof one is still married.   "

I made it clear I was in a different situation, so I fail to see your point in your posts in repeating what I already noted (that my situation was different).

4 hours ago, couchpotato said:

Read the OP post---They are both Westerners.

The point is they may want proof marriage is still valid.

50 minutes ago, jharr said:

Trying to extend for another year for the first time in the province we moved to last year the Immigration Officer instructed us to "prove you are still married".  ...  Awaiting a response from our embassy, but would very much like to hear from others who have encountered or understand this direction by Immigration. Thanks in advance.

 

Good luck in your efforts.  

I have not encountered the situation you are in, but I do note in some immigration offices (such as Phuket) when applying for an extension on a Type-OA visa (for reason of marriage to a Thai) require proof one is still married.  For example some time back I had to prove my Thai wife and I were still married.  In our case, since our marriage (which was originally in Canada) had been subsequently been re-registered in Thailand, we had a "Kor-22" document.  The Phuket requirement (at that time - a few years back) was that I had to go to city hall with my Thai wife and have the Kor-22 document renewed - so to prove we were still married.

I subsequently switched to a Type-O (for reason of retirement) and then to an LTR visa, so I don't know if this is still the case at Phuket immigration.

Granted - this is different than what you are encountering, but it could be for the same sort of reason - they want some organization to give 'official proof' that you are still married.

.

16 hours ago, atpeace said:

My Non-O expires on November 10.  Can you apply for another visa before it expires?  I'm thinking about a quick trip to Laos and do an E-visa.  Never done an E-visa but it seems simple enough.

As noted already in this thread, in the case of applying for an LTR visa, if on a non-immigrant type-O (and OA) visa, it is possible to apply for an LTR visa when on either of those two visas.  I recall one of the 'fields' I had to fill in on the application form was what Visa was I current on ? (if any).

In my case, speculating it would take me a long time to get the LTR visa approved, I went and applied for a 1-year extension on my Type-O visa (for reason of retirement), and then within a week of obtaining that extension, I then started the application process for my Thai LTR visa.

In the case of the DTV visa, ... I don't know if that is possible.  Its a good question !

.

16 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

I am not aware of any other office which requires hand-drawn maps to your residence to be provided in support of - and, consequently, home visits to be performed in connection with - non-O visa conversion and annual extension of stay applications for retirement. So in this particular regard CW can justifiably be considered a rogue office IMHO.

Phuket asked for such (hand drawn map, and phone number to arrange visit to my condo) from me once when I was going for an extension on a Type-OA for reason of retirement.  Other years they (Phuket immigration) did not ask me for such.  Frankly, I was very surprised they asked for such as I thought it was only required for extensions for reason of marriage. 

Then late, when I changed the reason for my 1-year extension (under the Type-OA) from 'retirement' to 'marriage', they asked me to add them as a "Line" contact (on the "Line social media app"), and instead of doing a home visit, they asked me to phone them a couple of days later on "Line" (initiating a video chat) and they had me walk through my condo, showing them the interior, the number on my door, and at the street sign at the entrance to the condo.

5 hours ago, Presnock said:

Yes, but also read the Thai tax laws about getting a tax ID number, which is a must prior to filling taxes and if one has no assessable income, one doesn't have to get an ID number nor file a tax form.  I only get a US government pension and by the DTA with Thailand that is taxable only by the US government which it has done since I began drawing on it 20+ years ago.  I too have an LTR and would be very interested in anythiing that the Revenue Department provides some clarity about this visa and others.  Would appreciate it greatly if you keep us informed of your progress in this matter.  Have a good day.

My hope is no tax return will be needed.

Thus far, after the initial phone call from the Revenue Department, questioning my wife as to why I applied for a Tax ID (where RD initially stated a tax return not needed if I did not bring foreign income into Thailand - but they did not know my particulars with me being on an LTR visa), they have not phoned my wife back.

After their initial statement (no tax return needed if money is not brought into Thailand), recall my wife asked them a couple of further questions on the phone: (1) do I need to file a tax return in Thailand if on an LTR visa when bringing foreign income into Thailand while I also have no Thai income, and (2) at what point would I need to file a Thai tax return if my interest income (from Thai bonds/banks) reached a certain point. My wife also asked for a written statement if no tax return required.  The RD person stated they would check and call my wife back.

Thus far, the RD have not called my wife back - and given we are trying to be tactful about this, my wife has not (yet) called the RD back again.

13 hours ago, Jack1988 said:

Honestly i think that some folks with marriage visas or retirement visas, elite visas can't accept that now people like me can live in thailand more easily

Unlikely IMHO - or if there are some its a VERY SMALL number.

Most of us are hoping it does get easier to stay in Thailand for those who don't meet the marriage or retirement or elite visa status.

That IMHO is one of the good things about Thailand, in that there are many different types of Visas, where some Visas are more suitable than other visas for the different personal and financial status of various individuals who wish to spend time (and money) in Thailand.  It makes little sence IMHO to rain on someone else's parade.

So while I have an LTR visa, I am happy to see these new Visa implementations make it easier for many to come to Thailand.

.

As noted in this thread (where IMHO you are obtaining good advice) one can 'rent' a ticket in the sites mentioned in this thread.  If that causes one concern, then there are some amazing cheap prices if one wants to buy a 'real' oneway ticket.  

I just looked at Kayak for flights and some example cheap one way flights are:

Krabi to KL : 1273 THB (Air Asia) 14:25 to 16:55 (~$35 US$)

Bangkok to KL : 1318 THB (Air Asia) (~$36.25 US$)

Bangkok to Phnom Penh :  1434 THB (Air Asia) (~ $39.50 US$)

One does have to try different dates to get the cheapest flight. 

Given one does not plan to use the flight, it doesn't really matter what city one is flying out of in Thailand (as long as the ticket is to depart from a Thailand international airport) and it doesn't really matter what city airport outside of Thailand one is flying into (as long as the ticket price is 'dirt cheap'). 

17 minutes ago, The Fugitive said:

Thai Airways Munich to Suvarnabhumi are keen on seeing return/onward tickets or 'some sort of visa' (as they put it).

Thai Airways from Frankfurt (when flying to Suvarnabhumi) noted the same in a 'popup' on their website (a few times when I checked in online to fly that route from Frankfurt to Bangkok).  Still - despite that warning when doing the online checkin, given how busy they can be at the airport at the airline boarding counter, that doesn't guarantee they will take the time to call one up to the counter to check one has such a return/onward ticket. 

I've been called up a couple of times (by Thai airways) in Frankfurt to the boarding counter when flying to Thailand.  On one occasion I had a type-OA visa, and after seeing the visa in my passport, they thanked me and asked I simply wait for boarding.  On another occasion (when my Type-OA was invalid as I previously deliberately departed Thailand with no re-entry ticket (so to invalidate my Type-OA as I was planning to enter Thailand visa exempt and obtain a Type-O once in Thailand)), the airline staff spent a long time looking at my (invalid) Type-OA, .... and then let me return to wait for boarding. They did not ask for an onward ticket (although I had such ready if asked)  I think they could not tell that the Type-OA was no longer valid ?? ... 

Still I do agree its best if possible to have a contingency plan ready in case one is required to produce such a return/onward ticket at the last minute.

I don't think the current 60day visa exemptions being limited or unlimited, will affect any of the current policies for possible onward or return airline ticket checks.

An educational thread - illustrating how different various Immigration offices can be.

When I used to be on a Type-O/OA visas, I often would go to Phuket immigration for my 90-day report (as the on-line reporting rarely worked for me). It is less than a 15-minute car drive from where I live.  I think the most I ever had to wait at the immigration for a 90-day report was close to 45-minutes (it was a zoo that day at the office, and it was very over-crowded), and most times for a 90-day report I was in/out in less than 15-minutes, ... sometimes less than 5 minutes when using the Phuket central immigration office automobile drive through.  No appointments needed.

Reading of over 2 hours being required in one case at CW, and 45-minutes being a relatively quick time, was, for me as noted, educational.  It definitely "drives home" how different various Immigration offices can be in terms of what one does.

I assume the conclusion for CW is to always try and make an appointment?

11 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

That's fair, I completely understand.

 

But you wouldn't be on either of those categories ("LTR WFTP category or any EOR") , I assume LTR wealthy pensioner , in which case yes, certainly best visa for that situation. 

Good point. I was thinking of LTR-WP. .... Still, I ask myself,  how about those on an LTR WFTP category with families?  Should they be forced to drag their families out of the country every year? or leave their family every year for their own visa run - when they could instead obtain a Visa where such was not needed (assuming they have the finances)?

My own view is we are fortunate that Thailand has many different visa categories, and dependent on each of our circumstances (age, working? retired? families? finances), different visas are suitable for each of us.

53 minutes ago, anrcaccount said:

 

Outside of the dubiously worded, up for debate and non enforced foreign tax exemption.....I cannot see a single reason now why anyone would use either the LTR WFTP category or any EOR, now the DTV exists.

 

Let me give you one reason:  Some of us in our 70s and 80s do not want to have to travel to leave the country every year.

14 minutes ago, White Rabbit said:

Respectfully, I think you are asking for trouble... you will not get more concise answers - the system doesn't work like that - and it wouldn't in Italy for Germany or the UK for that matter. In Thailand wordings are often opaque - not necessarily intentionally but it's in the language which is much less black and white than our Western languages are. So my advice would be to cease harassing your wife for further phone calls, and to relax and enjoy your life and the tax free status which the LTR WP visa grants you - at least for now and the foreseeable future. I'm sure your wife will thank you as well. Most Thais feel we're overthinking things anyway. By applying for the LTR visa we have all done what we could. 

(If you can't stop worrying you could always travel and make sure you'll spend less than 180 days in Phuket/Thailand.)

I agree with all that you state EXCEPT for the "asking for trouble" wording. 

I am going about this very indirectly and tactfully. Very tactfully.

Would you prefer to find out (say in year 2027)that you have to pay tax on year 2024 and 2025 and 2026 assessable foreign income, that you should have been tax exempt, but you now have to pay tax on it, only because you failed to file a tax return?

As you infer, TIT (this is Thailand).  I can't predict the future despite many years living here.  What I can predict is that somethings are not predictable.

As for doing nothing and having faith, ... that's your choice. I respect that.  It is thou what I call the 'head in the sand approach' and I will repeat it may very well be the best approach.  And it may not.

But its not my approach.

46 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

Honestly this is what I believe:

 

a) BOI rules we know for sure

  - 80000 USD Pension,

  - Health Insurance.

b) TRD rule(s) speculation

 - file a tax return,

 - ?

You may note that b) could fee into the enforcement of a). If not I'd suggest people keep their paperwork tidy for when they apply for the next 5 years lot. 

 

I agree with that - except 5 years may be too late, ... and further the only addition I might have is a caution in the Royal Decree No.743 on the LTR visa, in Section-7 that states (unofficial English translation):

"Section 7 - In the case that a foreigner has applied tax reduction or exemption under this Royal Decree, and does not comply with the rules prescribed in Section 3, Section 4, Section 5 and Section 6, in any tax year, benefits will be suspended in that tax year."

That is rather punitive.

Note that 'section-6' (which is referred to in section-7 above) then states (again unofficial English translation):

"Section 6 - A foreigner who is entitled to the benefits under Section 3, Section 4, and Section 5 must meet qualifications and comply with rules, procedures, and conditions as prescribed by the Director-General of the Revenue Department."

Again, Section-3 and 4 refers to the "LTR High-Skilled Professional" and section-5 refers to "Wealthy Global Citzen, Wealthy Pensioner, and Work From Thailand Professional".

So very clearly Section-3 and Section-4 and Section-5  LTR-visa holders can run into problems if they do not comply with  rules, procedures, and conditions as prescribed by the Director-General of the Revenue Department.  I ask again, what are those rules, procedures, and conditions?

And again, Thailand Revenue Department has tuned its tax intepretation defining anyone in Thailand for 180 days and greater is considered a tax resident, which means they need to file a tax return on assesable income.  Thailand Revenue Department did NOT state LTR visa holders are exempt from following their rules.  There is nothing that states clearly that Section-5 (from Royal Decree) visa holders do not have to follow Thai Revenue Department rules, procedures nor conditions. Just the opposite is stated.

So if a Section-5 LTR Visa holder (ie LTR-WP, LTR-GC, or LTR-HSP) should not follow Thai Revenue Department rules, procedures nor conditions their tax benefits will be suspended in that tax year.  .... ie one could interpret that as saying they will then have to pay tax on their foreign income if they don't follow some rule (where I fear such could be something as basic as not filing an income tax return).

This is the thrust of my trying to figure this out and why I think it useful to try have this made very very clear. And that is why I am adopting the indirect approach I noted ...

Yes, I could turn a blind eye, stick my head in the sand, and indeed, it may work out fine just like I think we all hope it works out fine (as that was what we were lead to believe by BoI when we applied for the LTR Visa). ie No tax return !! No tax on foreign sourced income.  I do hope that. I want to blindly hope that.

But I don't like that "hope only" approach. So I am trying to very tactfully prod the Thai Revenue department, by applying for a Tax ID, and obtain something definitive from them.

I don't criticize those who put their faith 100% that there will be no tax return requirements for Section-5 LTR visa holders, as that is ALSO what I want.  

I just want to ensure we don't get impacted by Section-7's punitive clause because we had too much faith and believed in good faith we did not have to file a tax return.  

I will try to explore this as tactful as possible - and as noted - I may not succeed to get any clarity.

1 hour ago, Ben Zioner said:

You ought to wait until the 2024 IT form comes out. 

That definitely is a good approach. 

Another thought I had on the approach my Thai wife and I are adopting, is by 'shaking the tree' very very VERY tactfully in an indirect way now, that we may contribute to the RD thinking in terms of the 2024 IT, such that it will have the correct entries for the LTR visa  ... or result in further Revenue Department clarifications.

9 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

The following TRD document is on the BOI website. I hope it's enough (along with the Royal Decree 743) to convince you that the tax exmption for LTR visa holders is valid. I'm convinced.

 

Thankyou for your post.

From the "Notification of the Director Gerneral of the Revenue Department Regarding Income Tax (No.427) it is clear that LTR visa foreigners under categories Highly Skilled Professional, Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, and Work-from-Thailand Professional (who are eligble for income tax reduction or exemption) MUST comply with rules and conditions on the LTR Visa as prescribed by the BOI.

Further, it notes foreigners under section-3 (LTR-Highly Skilled Professional) and section-4 which again refers to LTR-Highly Skilled Professional) as defined in the Royal decree, must file a Thai Income Tax return.

It does not state whether foreigners under section-5 (Wealthy Global Citzen, Wealthy Pensioner, and Work-from-Thailand Professional) need to file an income tax return. 

However it does clearly state (again) that all LTR visa holders MUST meet qualifications and comply with rules, procedures, and conditions as prescribed by the Director-General of the Revenue Department.  So what rule might these be?  How about the rule where if one is in Thailand >180 days one may need to file a tax return?

Note also the wording is clear, that the  Wealthy Global Citizen, Wealthy Pensioner, or Work-from-Thailand Professional are granted a Long-Term Resident Visa under immigration law are exempt for foreign assessable income. ... i.e. this directly refers to foreign income that IS assessable, but then it is considered exempted.  It is not made "not assessable", it is not defined as "not assesable", but rather it is made "exempt".   Does that wording matter?  I don't know.

So as I posted previous, for me that begs the question, is "assessable income that is exempt" from income tax clause identical to "non-assessable income" in all respects?  IMHO the question is important in regards to any need (or NO need) to file an income tax return. 

I prefer the explanation that 'exempt' is identical to 'not assessable' and hence  "NO NEED" to file a tax return answer - but honestly I don't know.  I prefer not to speculate based on my preference/hope.

Anyway - my hope is to eventually get a direct answer from the Thai revenue department on this question, rather than to try to dig up an answer from the BoI (where I suspect (but again I don't know) that any Revenue Department ruling may take precedent over any BoI statement). 

Which is not to preclude obtaining BoI answers - but I would also prefer if this was made crystal clear from the Thai Revenue Department.

I am still waiting for the Thai Revenue department to call my wife back, where we used the application of a Thai Tax-ID for me (with me being an LTR-P holder), as an approach to try to obtain the maximum amount of clarity on this question.  Perhaps I won't succeed here - but I am trying.

15 minutes ago, shdmn said:

If you are still required to file a tax return then you are NOT considered a non-resident for tax purposes.  If you don't live there then it would be for some other reason, such as still having "significant residential ties", having Canadian rental income, or certain Canadian pension income.  Most people who are non-residents, with no significant residential ties, do not need to file a tax return.  The other possibility is that you chose to report certain types of income by electing to under section 217 of the income tax act.

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/international-non-residents/individuals-leaving-entering-canada-non-residents/non-residents-canada.html

 

https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/tax/international-non-residents/individuals-leaving-entering-canada-non-residents/electing-under-section-217.html

 

 

You ARE required, as a non-resident to Canada, to file a tax return on any Canadian sourced income (such as interest from a Canadian bank account one might still have)  if you are in a higher income tax bracket (due to your global income outside Canada) which results in the withholding tax being insufficient.

And no, I did NOT choose to report under section-217.

If one does not, as I noted, one will be fined and pay interest on the tax due.

Every year !!! (since Revenue Canada caught up with me)  I receive (very late given how slow postal mail is between Thailand and Canada) a package with the Canadian paper income tax return to be filled in.

That just is the way it is.  One needs to be VERY careful in reading Canadian tax documents as there are all sorts of almost hidden aspects ...  It can be very complex.

Again ... why do I know? Because as an expat (with a letter from Revenue Canada saying I was not a tax-resident)  I did not file a Canadian tax return for years. When I started receiving my Canadian OAS (Old Age Security) - which I get for working in Canada for 1/4 century before becoming a non-tax resident)  I filed a tax return, and Revenue Canada then 'hit' me with a bill for unpaid "DELTA" amounts (above the withholding tax they already deducted) from past taxation years when I did not file a tax return.  Further, they also DEMANDED I file a tax return for those past years. 

Be very careful when you read those documents. There is more to this than 'just meets the eye'.

57 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Why is that?  As far as I know, if you are a non resident of Canada you do not need to file a tax return.  They just take 25% right off the top,  ....

 

If you receive any income from Canada (such as interest in a Canadian bank account), no matter how small, they want an income tax return.

57 minutes ago, shdmn said:

Why is that?  As far as I know, if you are a non resident of Canada you do not need to file a tax return.  They just take 25% right off the top, but you have to apply to become a non-resident for tax purposes first.  Did you ever do that?

No. Anyone who gets ANY income from Canada, is supposed to file a tax return.  And in that tax return, one is required to state one's global income, and state the global income of one's spouse.

I received a letter in year 2001 from Revenue Canada, confirming I am not a tax resident.  That still does not exempt me from filing a Canadian tax return and paying tax on any Canadian income, regardless as to how small (unless it is a big ZERO).  ONLY if I had no Canadian income, could I then not have to file a Canadian tax return

That's just the way it is.

As long as the 'withholding tax' (from one's interest in Canada) is greater than what the tax would be if one filed a tax return - then if no income tax return was filed, then there is no fine for not filing a tax return.  

But if because one's global income drives one to a high tax bracket (which eventually became my case), such that one would owe more tax than the withhold tax rate ( ie tax on one's interest from assets still in Canada) then one runs into issues for not filing the tax return and for not paying the extra tax (due to being in a higher tax bracket from global income).  Note as a non-resident to Canada, one does not owe tax on the Global income outside of Canada - but the global income does drive one into a higher tax bracket.   I should also note that if one has not filed a tax return (because their Global income puts one in a high tax bracket), then  as a minimum one will pay punitive interest to Revenue Canada (at a very high interest rate) and worst case one will also receive a fine that has to be paid (with interest accumulating on any unpaid fine amount year after year, until one finally settles their tax account).

That also is just the way it is.

How do I know this? I've been there. Done that. Paid the interest & fine.

21 hours ago, Andycoops said:

I obtained my TIN without a CoR.

Just used my yellow book, pink ID card and passport.

Interesting.  " ... and passport " ... Interesting.

Yesterday my Thai wife submitted online an application for myself to obtain a TIN.  In the online form she was allowed to select what form of ID, and she selected the entry that allowed her to use my 'pink-ID'.  She also needed to use my Yellow Book (she stated the form asked her to provide residence proof where a house book was acceptable for such). 

The 'online' application form had no way to upload images of copies of Yellow Book nor Pink-ID, and instead one is then given an email address where copies of these are to be sent by email.

She forwarded the email (with the pink-ID/yellow book copies as attachments) on to the Revenue Department email address and she received an an email back acknowledging receipt of her email.  My assumption is acknowledgement is not the same as acceptance.

She did NOT (at least not yet) send a copy of my passport.  She stated to me such was not asked for a passport in the online form (if Pink-ID submitted as identity proof).  I find that I bit difficult to believe, but we will see if the Revenue Department gets back to us and asks for the Passport copies.

I am in no hurry to get a TIN, so if not sending the passport copy slows down this process, then that is fine by me.

4 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

Maybe this document could shed a bit of light. 

 

Thai version

 

Could anyone confirm wether it was issued by RD?

Thanks.  I have never seen that document before.

When reading that document, it notes foreigners who are eligible for tax reduction or exemption under Section 3 and Section 4 of the Royal Decree (no.743) must "File a personal income tax return (P.N.D.95) for a tax year in which income tax reduction or exemption is applied within a period of time prescribed by the law or an extended period of time".

So next I looked at the Royal decree to see which LTR visas are listed under Section-3 and Section-4 of that Royal decree.

Section-3 is "Highly Skilled Professional".

Section-4 is a foreigner whose income is withheld for income tax at the rate of 17% of assessable income under section-3.

Not mentioned is Section-5 in the Royal Decree which covers Wealthy Global Citizens, Wealthy Pensioners, and Work-from-Thailand professionals.

So as near as I can tell, that document does not clarify whether Wealthy Global Citizens, Wealthy Pensioners, and Work-from-Thailand professionals need to file a tax return.

What concerns me the most is the wording in the Royal Decree that notes all the LTR visa holders (ie those under Section-3, 4, and 5 in the Royal Decree) must meet qualifications and comply with rules, procedures, and conditions as prescribed by the Director-General of the Revenue Department.

And with that in mind, I note Thailand Revenue Department now wants foreigners who reside in Thailand for >180 days to file an income tax return (at least that is my current understanding).

Hence I am concerned (and I could be VERY VERY WRONG) that it may be necessary to file an income tax return if on an LTR-Wealthy Pensioner visa.

But I don't know. And I don't want to base my 'actions' on hope.  Its quite possible nothing is required (in terms of tax return), and the opposite is also possible (maybe a return will be wanted). This is Thailand and for me that often means things are not always what they seem.

I am also curious if any on an LTR Wealth Pensioner, Wealthy Citizen, or Work From Thailand Professional have filed a Thai tax return.