IsaanAussie

Wormfarmer,

I admit to being a bit of a sceptic, but in this case I was wrong. Mate, those worms of yours are a-blanky-blank-mazing. They have eaten the whole compost pile and left a stack of castings. If I remember correctly, you told me that they would eat the contents of a large concrete ring of manure in six months, forget that, its only a month since I bought them and 75% is gone. The worms, themselves, are enormous. Vermicompost here I come.

Isaanaussie

From what I understand, lots of skill,patience and time is required to actually get vanilla from the Vanilla orchid .

That they only grow naturally (outside) in small particular areas of Madagaskar,Indonesia and Mexico would indicate some difficulty in cultivating them,as well ,only 2 insects are known to pollinate their flowers,making hand pollination skills a must.

The pods take about 9 months to mature after which they are sterilised (killed) and put into storage for a few months ,the actual vanilla is made within the pod due to a chemical reaction between the bean and its resinous coating while in storage.

Yes Sir as usual you are correct. I lived in Indonesia for several years and had the opportunity to observe the vanilla plantations first hand. Like coffee it is a crop that depends more on the attention of the farmer than the season. Waiting is good, WOW no need to do it right now, how can that possibly work in Thailand? Bah Humbug! Premium cash crops that are controllable.

I/A

Gentlemen,

I have to agree that all the advice you have offered is sound. But the bottom line here is the income requirement.

For me, I only have eight years in the rice growing area here, so I stand to be corrected. Rice is a staple diet here for thai people not for me. When a Thai has rice to eat, the rest doesnt matter. Last year I netted about 4,500 baht per rai profit from rice. So if the OP needs 1.5 M THB per annum, then do the maths from there. It isnt going to work. Why are there so many peasant farmers in Isaan?

With fuel prices through the roof, cassava the primary source of ethanol here was attractive for a short time. Then 25 satang was the going rate, no profit in that on a consistent basis.

Ozzy, your fish is a good example. Yes the farm gate price varies but not as much. The issue I have there is the feed costs. I would question the viability of fish farming as a stand alone enterprise? I have no experience in aquaculture.

I posted on the forum somewhere recently that any rural enterprise here must be multifaceted. Single source incomes are difficult unless you get into a low cost startup like member Monkeypants has achieved. I believe him to be one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

Isaanaussie

RBH appears to have a profitable fish operation ,but his food bill would give me nightmares,however shear weight of numbers and good management seems to get him through.

Our operation is totally different to RBH,s catfish operation, we raise Tilapia, which takes us 7-8 months to do a rotation of about 2000 fish per rai of pond (RBH probably does a rotation of 40,000 cats in half that time).

Because we provide an environment which provides the fish with their natural food our feed costs are fairly minimal (FCR 1:1)so margins are pretty good.

Let me jump in first, a dangerous place to be in the predatory fish business. RBH also has pigs and their excrement (from the photos supplied erlier,)

grows food for the fish, more integrated. If you are getting FCR of 1 then the rest doesnt matter, well done Ozzy. For me, my pigs average an FCR of between 2.4 and 2.6 to 100 Kg. The FCR may be <deleted> in comparison, the that same substance is hopefully the start of the balance.

Each to his own I suppose, I have just purchased some locally grown greenery grown on my compost. Samples were free, product was purchased. There is a God after all and we Farangs might just have a place here.

Isaanaussie

Gentlemen,

I have to agree that all the advice you have offered is sound. But the bottom line here is the income requirement.

For me, I only have eight years in the rice growing area here, so I stand to be corrected. Rice is a staple diet here for thai people not for me. When a Thai has rice to eat, the rest doesnt matter. Last year I netted about 4,500 baht per rai profit from rice. So if the OP needs 1.5 M THB per annum, then do the maths from there. It isnt going to work. Why are there so many peasant farmers in Isaan?

With fuel prices through the roof, cassava the primary source of ethanol here was attractive for a short time. Then 25 satang was the going rate, no profit in that on a consistent basis.

Ozzy, your fish is a good example. Yes the farm gate price varies but not as much. The issue I have there is the feed costs. I would question the viability of fish farming as a stand alone enterprise? I have no experience in aquaculture.

I posted on the forum somewhere recently that any rural enterprise here must be multifaceted. Single source incomes are difficult unless you get into a low cost startup like member Monkeypants has achieved. I believe him to be one of the exceptions that proves the rule.

Isaanaussie

Hello thaidrav, the Dec. 08 issue of House Ag.Magazine has a 5 page article with pictures.(pgs, 168-172)

rice555

I would love to try to grow some vanilla plants. Anyone know where to buy the plants?

Isaanaussie

IA , I recently bought some vanilla plants from this man in BKK "Thai speaking only, his name is "Yot" 081-923-5390"

Many other rare plans too.

regards

Will he ship EMS? Whats the cost base? If you are looking for vermicompost then PM me. There is always a deal to be had

Hello thaidrav, the Dec. 08 issue of House Ag.Magazine has a 5 page article with pictures.(pgs, 168-172)

rice555

I would love to try to grow some vanilla plants. Anyone know where to buy the plants?

Isaanaussie

...so is there chicken manure in the commercial feed we use ?

I have no idea.

The chicken manure is used in pig feed in concert with sweet potato vine, cassava meal and salt to produce a fermented material. This is joined with a basal feed of the normal rice bran, corn and soy and fish meal in various formulations. About 30% of the ensiled feed is used. I looked at this as a way of reducing cost as the materials could be grown easily.

I grew the potatoes and cassava as a test but discovered that the sun dried chicken manure should come from chickens raised for meat not from layers that I have.

Isaanaussie

RBH and Fruity,

Agree completely. Actually I sat on the floor of the nursery pen with the piglet last night, I didnt lay down. RBH, what your neighbour told you is very true. In those few hours it was a bonding session with the litter of piglets.

Isaanaussie

I found out this afternoon that I need to improve a few details in the pig palace. A piglet about ten kilos had managed to get her head stuck in the dung holes out of her pen. Together we managed to get her stuck noggin out of the hole but she was distressed, verybruised and rather cold. So after a couple of hours of holding her in a blanket I put her back in with her litter siblings to keep her warm tonight. Nature will take its course tonight, I hope she survives.

Isaanaussie

A very intensive farmer

It is all to easy to be judgemental of others, especially in this our host country where blaming others is apparently part of preserving FACE. My personal situation here is entirely of my own making as I believe it is it is for all of us. I am here because I want to be. I find that the Thai saying "Up to you" is the test. For me they are right, that is exactly what it is all about, up to us. I enjoy living here with my wife, I dislike the implication that I have a money tree growing in some secret location and unless I continually anti-up to cure all ills, family, extended family and free loaders all, then I am Black Hearted. But that is just me..... Viva Le Difference

Isaanaussie

Frankly...i couldn't care more, i'm running a farm business for livinghood, not a shelter or rescue center, others can call it what they want !... As long as there's no sign of stress or absurd abuse (there's people caught mounting sow with their pants down)

People that want to consider very good welfare, should take them in as pets, shouldn't farm piggeries, shouldn't raise them for slaughter, should turn vegetarian and not eat meat !!!...We have abbots betting underground lotteries and eating meat !...Criticise that ~

Well said RBH,

It is a business for me too. The future of the pigs is pre-ordained, and pre-planned. I mean them no harm but most are ultimately going to die young. That means caring well for the pigs to protect the investment.

Isaanaussie

I for one am intrigued by the term intensive farming. Surely its an oxymoron.

No farm animal is free to live a "natural" life. There is always dependency for food and some form of confinement or restriction. So just where is the line crossed? How small does a pen have to be, to make that farm intensive?

Define the term for me, please. To me most of the intensity is in the efforts of the farmer.

Isaanaussie

Fruity,

My dear friend, regardless of anyones opinion you are without doubt the most passionate pig's friend I know. You won't even eat the meat from your pigs.... It's not compassion in your case, it's passion. You have changed my outlook and I now have pigs that want to spend time with me. No fear, lots of interest and heaps of mutual enjoyment. So I smell a bit ripe at times, so what? Thanks mate.

To others,

I have taken many many tips from this lifelong pig lover. I purchased my first pigs here from Fruity and they are still the base of my breeding stock. Fruity's latest post is good advice for all of us.

Isaanaussie

Hey Treelove,

Yeh, "Farm Boss" big engine mid size bar, made to cut trees up to about 24" diameter, real gum trees, not the saplings here. I had an open fire in my house in Australia and ready access to fallen trees in a rural enviroment. Many a weekend spent with car, trailer and saw out gathering firewood. Happy memories of days past. Here, no trees and no winter need for instant warmth past a few early hours of the morning. Really no need for me to have it here. But it would be nice anyway....

Isaanaussie

Thanks. It takes a big man to write what you have. I respect you for it. I think perhaps I too should be offering an apology to you, and others I may have offended. My opening thread was somewhat strong in polarising the issues, and in hindsight, I can see it was bound to provoke a reaction such as your initial one.

I would agree that the report does hedge things a bit, more so than I would be inclined to. I don't teeth clip and to date have yet to see any problems with sows teats, or with biting amongst the pigs. I also don't tail dock but this may be a bit of a gamble as most of my piglets are sold on. I use an open deep bed sty system which provides a good degree of stimulation for the pigs who can root and dig at will. I worry that is less stimulating environments there might be a problem, but have had no reports back saying there has been.

I'm really pleased to hear that you are using some straw bedding as I do think it provides some stimulation for the pigs. I wonder whether you have ever tried using 'gaep' (rice hulls) as a flooring alternative to straw? It would do a similar job to straw but has the advantage of mixing in with the pig feaces and urine to make very good compost. It has the advantage of being very cheap too if you buy it in the small village 'lonhg see's' (rice threshing places), around 2 baht for a 30 - 50kg kg bag size. I've never used this with a concrete floor system and just wonder whether it's a practical alternative to straw or not. You could in theory layer it pretty deep and reduce the frequency requirement for flushing out/mucking out. It might be worth loooking at. Would be interested in your views on this.

OK, so we got off to a bad start. Done and dusted as far as I am concerned.

I use straw because I have over 400 bales, that simple. I have used rice hulls in compost and in conditioning clay based soils in Australia. A friend here uses it as bedding in his sty and in heaps in the dunging area to good effect. The straw I am using is chopped into small pieces as straight from the bale makes the compost mixing difficult. After the pigs have played with and slept on the straw it is quite crushed and soaks up moisture well. I find that I have to add very little water to the compost heap as the moisture content straight out of the pen is about right. I have also found that the manure mixs better in the sty than either letting it dry a little and then mixing it with dry straw in the compost bins, oe after it becomes slurry after wash out. Finally I find the straw base compost is light and airy and without smell. I put that down to frequent turning and the C to N ratio being as close to 30 to 1 as I can get it. If the new material starts to smell, add more straw. If it is slow and doesnt heat up quickly add more manure and so on. One last thing is the straw saves damage to the floor that some pigs like to do.

I add the straw by dumping out a feed bag full in a heap and letting the pigs spread it around. Sometimes I throw a few handfuls of feed into the heap to keep their attention on rooting around.

My sty is designed as a breeding facility and I have limited growing and finishing places. I am thinking of building hoop barns on a second site in the future to add to capacity. These I would like to be deep litter floors. The main issue being the land I have is low lying rice paddy and would have to be filled to above the flood level and then further to accomodate the depth of the litter fill. Need to see a return on current investment first.

I have a 24in Stihl saw sitting in a box back in Australia, I would give my back teeth to have that chainsaw here.

Charlie10,

Thanks for the link I downloaded the full book and have quickly scanned through the content. I find many parallels with my own operation and will continue to read it in detail.

The differences of opinion that we have are demonstrated as well. I noticed several references to things where comments such as "may improve" or "could prevent" are made, tail docking is a good example. I do dock the tails of new born piglets, and I cut their teeth. I have had tails bitten off and teats damaged. To me these are both the lesser of two evils. These sort of differences of opinion will be with us for ever.

I use straw as bedding and as a manipulation focus as well as a method of dry muck out cleanup pre compost heap. It definitely is more work and the floors do not stay as clean but thats OK as the power washer takes care of that every few days and it produces the best compost I have ever seen.

I admit being fiercely proud and defensive of my methods and believes as I suggest you are as well. Maybe we are not so far apart after all. So for what it's worth I suppose I should apologise for offering too strong an attitude. Sorry.

Isaanaussie

I am fascinated by Charlie10's post.

Actually it is unusual that personal email addresses dont get edited out. In this case there is something about the address that was familiar and has had me scratching my head trying to remember what it was. I have just remembered the memory it triggered. Two half brothers, friends from my youth. John Sillick and Robert Hunt. They both went by the hyphenated name of Sillick-Hunt.

Isaanaussie

you call it over crowding...my reseach said it's call Intensive Farming...

http://en.wikipedia....ive_pig_farming

btw free range n intensive...i choose the latter...and in term of animal welfare, i've compensated in my own ways and i not in the mood to tell.

hey, it's a free world, the authorities find nothing wrong with this kind of farming practice and if you feel like it, build them a 5 star facility sty or shed and includ in a tread mil and jacuzzi pool.

just my 2 satang...

RBH,

I will downgrade my sty to 4 star immediately, never thought of the tread mill, oh bother!

I have gestation pens they measure 3 x 5 metres and are fitted with 4 individual, full length feedstalls. Each is fitted with individual bowl feeder and drinking bowl. The back of the pen is open as usual 3 x 3 metres and has a laying area and dunging area with two drinkers. The 5 pens each hold 4 sows. Yes I can close off the back of each stall to form a gestation crate, or vet handling crate call it what you will. My logic is simple. 1. Pigs are social animals, each group of four are sisters and have lived together constantly. 2. Sows confront each other usually at feeding times. Studies show that full length feeding partitions offer the best protection from conflict 3. 250Kg sows are difficult to handle at the best of times. 4. Early pregnancy period needs special care.

So whats the option? House each one separately? I dont believe pigs enjoy solitary confinement.

I also have farrowing crates each mounted diagonally in a 2.5 x 2.5 metre stall. They are there for the safety of the piglets and people. One side can be opened so sows can turn around after the first few days when the chance of crushing is diminished, the piglet area remains closed off for the sow.

For those that believe there is cruelity in my approach, explain it to me. To my mind this is best practice. I have the best interests of the pigs and myself at heart.

It is also a good idea to remember that this is a business from which profit is intended to be made.

Isaanaussie

Yesterday evening I disturbed the worm box to see what was happening. When I visited Wormfarmers operation the worms were feeding near the surface and castings covered the top of each bin. Mine seems to be as it had been since the start.

Just under the surface sure enough there were the worms and a fair amount of castings. All is well in worm city.

Charlie F Wit,

How dare you drop this sort of <deleted> on people like us. Moderators do your duty, I am willing to be the lamb to be slaughtered.

I sit on the floor with my piglets to gain their trust. I hand feed them with greenery to promote their health and happiness. I have many friends who also care more for thier own meaning to life and the best interests of the animals that may well help us achieve that if we are prepared to put in the hard yards.

How dare you judge me and people like me with your meaning of the universe. Monty Python told us all the answer is 42, so "F" you.

Indignent

Isaanaussie

Forgot to say I have sourced some Ma Rum, moringa, planted them 2 days ago, eagerly awaiting their growth.

Also made a home made biopod for black solider fly, but so far only blowfly maggots have appeared, I have read that BSF do live in TL, just need to attract them with the right food stuff, I read that mango fruit and milk are a very good initial attractant for them but have been too busy with other stuff to get around to that yet.

Hey trips any updates for us future fish farmers forever

Best thing I have found so far is a small low energy bulb over the tank.

In the rainy season it attracts hundreds of thousands of "Maleng Mau" - termites absolutely adamant on killing themselves.

Enormous quantities of free fish food, only useful for Catfish though, Bpla Nin and Tab Tim don't eat them.

Have had no luck in sourcing Duckweed, and the Nins/tab Tims don't appear to like Moringa, at least in raw form.

Maggot growing was really unsucsessful, just too hot I think, they would grow to a few mm's and then die.

If and when the rains finally come, I will try again at growing maggots.

Cheers

I found a good source of crickets near Prachon Chai and am looking to start growing worms and them, we've used the light trick and it is a good free source of food. We need to find some source of plant that can be used for organic feed. It appears, as it is, that catfish will eat anything including bananas and the banana plant also but we need to find some kind of foodstock that we can grow to be able to raise the Nin and Tim organically. thanks for the update and choke dee maggotting

FEF,

Mate, you get any greener and You will start to grow!

I/A

Wonder if there has been any "advise" offered from Thai friends of Cambodia?

From reading this thread and others in the farming forum i gather all this planting, harvesting, mixing, mucking about in the mud, feeding, selling/buying is all done "in an advisory role" as surely you can not actually be doing all this work as a farang?

Appearances can be deceiving. I get all covered in <deleted> from behind the advisors desk in a one man operation.