StreetCowboy

I suppose, contrary to my pot a few lines earlier, some businesses encourage their staff to take 'back-handers' from the customers; elsewhere, we call these "tips", though in some businesses, there are systems put in place to ensure that all staff benefit, and I believe, in these cases, the direct handing of money to the staff to circumvent this equitable sharing is discouraged.

However, I think such behaviour is not the norm in professional or bureaucratic organisations, in Thailand or anywhere else.

SC

The line between tip and facilitation fee can be very blurred. What is the difference between my wife paying a couple of grand to avoid waiting for three days for her land registration to processed and passing a maitre dee a twenty to get a good table in a packed restaurant?

Both are corrupt.

The maitre d may have the authority so that he could make that decision in any case; the bureaucratic peon does not. IN any case, the maitre d should be allocating tables for the benefit of his employer - either to encourage good customers to come back, or to maximise turnover, according to the policy of the restaurant. Not lining his own pockets by allowing any flash-harry to bribe his way into an exclusive restaurant.

Similarly, if the government wishes to offer a two-tier system (for example, to allow a quick turn-around on passport issue) then the fee for that service should accrue to the state, either so that they can reduce the burden to the taxpayer or reduce their fees for those that can afford to wait, not lining the pockets of selected officials so that they can buy imported cars.

SC

If the Lands Department can process

I suppose, contrary to my post a few lines earlier, some businesses encourage their staff to take 'back-handers' from the customers; elsewhere, we call these "tips", though in some businesses, there are systems put in place to ensure that all staff benefit, and I believe, in these cases, the direct handing of money to the staff to circumvent this equitable sharing is discouraged.

However, I think such behaviour is not the norm in professional or bureaucratic organisations, in Thailand or anywhere else.

SC

EDIT: Typo corrected

You can't stop corruption in any country, you can only lessen it.

You can stop a lot of it. You can make it the exception, rather than the norm.

You can reduce it to the extent that it does not need to feature as a line item in project budgets.

SC

Having said all that, I can't understand why any able and willing foreigner who has made Thailand is home would not want Thai citizenship other than through sheer laziness, or perhaps some sense of fervent patriotic loyalty (?).

Or financial reasons. Plus I really still can't see much more benefit than being on a retirement visa. (not that I am on one of those either).

Posted with Thaivisa App http://apps.thaivisa.com

If you have dual citizenship, your 'home country' will not use its consular powers to assist you against persecution by your adopted country.

SC

Is this some wishfull thinking of yours or solid information that you have actually verified with all "home countries" of the world?

Anyway, I do not think it is generally correct. Over the past few years I've seen several

examples to the contrary hitting international news head lines.

I'm just telling you what it says on my passport "British nationals who are also the nationals of another country cannot be protected by HM Representatives against the authorities of that country."

SC

...

I wonder how many voicing their disgust have ever taken part in it without even knowing it.

I remember using a translation company as a one stop shop to take care of the marriage process.

We were taken to Prakhanong district office where others were waiting to register their marriage, both farang and Thai.

The mrs and I were dealt with immediately, neither of us were asked to pay any money, I am not naive enough to not know that included in the marriage service agents fee was a renumeration for expediting the process.

The whole process was completed within a day, that included all the paperwork for the wife to change her id card and passport.

As the wife and I relaxed that evening, we refelected on the pittance spent, and just how much we would have saved by doing the process ourselves, time wasted dealing with bureaucracy, names not translated correctly etc etc.

Lets not forget those who employ visa agents to complete the one year extension process, somewhere betwen 6 and 9 k baht I think is the norm.

Are they guilty of corruption for not gettting off their lazy asses and doing it themselves?

It depends on whetther the agent is filling in the forms correctly, checking everything is in order, checking that the supporting documents are there and submitting them through the regular channels, or whether they are giving half the money over to a member of the bureaucracy to do the same.

In our case, I am sure we would find it frustrating, slow and inconvenient to do without an agent because it is not clear what the process is, the order in which the steps have to be performed, and all the documentation is in Thai only. On the other hand, I would not be very surprised if there had been money changing hands to vary the normal 'custom and practice' - for example, perhaps to get chops issued on the day rather than coming back later; to allow a passport to be processed without the applicant being present. I don't know how much of the immigration process (as opposed to the laws and regulations) is intended to encourage graft...

So anyway, there is nothing corrupt about employing an agent to help you to prepare and submit forms correctly, nor to advise on the best way to submit. It is corrupt if the agent is paying money to a salaried servant of the state to do his job incorrectly, or to favour one applicant over another, or even to encourage the servant of the state to do his job correctly. When working for an employer, one's sole source of remuneration should be from that employer. Otherwise there is a clear conflict of interests, isn't there?

SC

To compare the benefits of a Thai passport worldwide versus British, Japanese, Swiss, Brazilian, Singaporean etc passports on this thread is an exercise in rather dim sophistry.

What's the point in trying to gain any one of those passports rather than Thai (without giving your existing passport up) f you have decided to conduct your life in Thailand ?

It depends on where your original passport is from.

SC

do you live in central bkk or pattaya ?

i had no bother up in isarn myself

but in the touristy cities the police use these tactics a lot

My friend in a little but prosperous town near Surin is good buddies with the local police chief. The chief stops by for free massages at my friend's wife's massage parlor, and in turn supplies him with excellent ganja at very reasonable prices.

Yes corruption, but a problem?

I suppose it depends on whether you want to continue allowing gangsters to have a monopoly on supplyig drugs.

I personally don't have particularly strong feelings on the use of drugs, but i do feel that countries like Afghanistan, Mexico, for example, would be better off if the drug trade did not provide a luctrative source of income for gangsters.

SC

Not only that, but the cop is an arm of the state and it is the state's laws that you have violated and the state has the right to punish you, in this case with a fine. Your giving the cop his 100 is flaunting the system, not thinking outside the box.

you cant blame someone for giving a cop 100thb when hes dishonestly representing the state when he suggests you should give him 100 thb

or you can make life tougher for yourself by having your licence confiscated and later paying 400 thb or more at the station

dont hate the player ,hate the game !

Then follow the rules, and you'll never have to play the game, which is my original point.

I don't think it's as simple as that samran. The law firm I work with has recently published a guide to corruption and bribery in Asia, a different chapter on each country. It's interesting to note how the definition of corruption changes in each country, sometimes ever so discreetly. In many countries, the paying of 'facilitation fees' is perfectly legal and acceptable, for example, in others not.

I'm with Naam on this - there are gradations of corruption and I would argue that paying facilitation fees to get things taken care of is one of the joys of being in Thailand. I don't mean paying to get your way out of traffic tickets - i agree with you that abiding by the law is the way to avoid those sort of issues.

But I recently had an example that puts a different perspective on things. My wife had to go to her amphur to legally register some land that she had bought and paid for but - for a variety of reasons - were still legally in the hands of some relatives.

She went all the way to Ubon to take care of this, and was told that it could take her sitting around for days before it was processed properly. On the other hand, a facilitation fee of 2000 would make sure it was all taken care of that morning.

Sure, she could have done the noble thing and sat and waited around for days, while others who had paid bribes got their issues taken care of first.

Only a fool would have done so though.

Facilitation fees make the world go round throughout Asia. I have no problem with it, and linking them to the Santika fire or hisos getting away with murder as some are trying to do is just hyperbole.

I'm not sure that it is to be commended that people will only work efficiently when they are the recipient of a bribe.

SC

i certainly would not take a family to pattaya,

nothing annoys me more than seeing farang parents ,

taking their children into the sexi soi,s .

theres a time and a place for everything ,

but pattaya is smothered in the sex industry.

i suggest chaam , would be far more suitable for a family .

You need to get our more. I've been to Pattaya a few times, and never seen the need to go near a gogo bar. My family go there fairly frequently as well.

For convenience to the airport and South-East Bangkok, its hard to beat.

I suppose we should check out some of the old victorian resorts around Samut Prakarn, but that all gets a bit - bush; a little bit more complicated. At least Pattaya is quite tourist-friendly. I do fancy a trip down to the seaside at Samut Prakarn, though - it looks like Portobello or Musselburgh (or Dunoon, if you're not from my part of the world...)

SC

My experience is those who go for the bribe are too lazy to be prepared or are too easily bullied.

Dont agree with this.

I do a u-turn illegally, I know full well I have done wrong and know exactly what I am doing as I do it, I take my chances, some you win some you lose.

After completeing my illegal turn I am pulled over, I now have two choices, go through the correct procedure, and probably pay 500 baht, plus the time and effort to do things legally, or pay 100 baht and be on my way, for me its a no brainer, nothing to do with being lazy or easily bullied.

I was in the wrong, I know I was in the wrong, the policeman knows I was in the wrong, he knows I know i was in the wrong, I look on it as nothing more than playing the system.

I can go to my embassy for a residence certificate to renew my driving license, it will cost about 2,000 baht, go and apply today, return tomorrow to pick up said certificate.

Or I can go to my local immigration office, pay 200 baht to expedite a service, that saves me both time and money, and walk out the office with the required certificate.

I was neither bullied or too lazy, I chose the method that suited my circumstances.

Have to love the Asian way of doing things, the ability "to think outside the box".

In both examples, it wasnt a bribe, it was a way of, making a problem go away.

Please excuse my transliteration, I believe the Thai expression is, bun khun, help me to help you.

When in Rome etc etc.

As I recall, Rome when Rome burnt, the ruling authorities treated it as seriously as the Santika...

To answer the OP's question:

- apparently, nobody knows.

EDIT: But we all seem able to invest confidence in our speculations as if they were fact

I'm always getting told to go home........apparently I blether too much

^{^}!^

(Sorry - I'm trying to work out a "sceptical raised-eyebrow" smiley, as epitomised by our good Mr Spock)

SC

Bargirl to farang...."You should see my buffaloes. They are so healthy."

Dean999's Avatar: "You should see my buffaloes. They are so healthy."

Show us yer bullocks, dear...

...

Me at soi 2 or Koa san = I am only having a pint, one, thats it, just one

I say that at least eight times a night, if I'm out... though, to be fair, I've never been to Kao San

SC

The the level of prejudice of Thai Visa posters is what amazes me. If someone were to suggest one of the great things about Thailand is the availability of both dark skinned Issan women and light skinned Chinese looking Thai ladies of the night the prejudiced Falang will insist there are no light skinned Chinese ladies of the night.

And amazing how farang ladies in faragland spend ooooooodles of cash to look like an Isaan girl.

It's perhaps the same attitude that existed in the West in the past, when pale skin was an indication that you did not have to work outside and were therefore of a higher class. Jane Austen's heroines would have swooned in the sunshine that we enjoy. It is no coincidence that the word "fair" was a synonym for beautiful for centuries in English poetry and prose.

Still is. In a moderate sort of way. It could be applied to ladies, or weather - as in "it's not fair, but it's not raining either..."

SC

on TV: You're absolutely right; I can see how I was labouring under a misapprehension based on a lack of experience or consideration for the viewpoint of others. Thanks for setting me straight!

the only xenophobia I have seen sems to come from people working in the immigration depts. Though the one woman we have dealt with locally is quite nice, the rest...

To be honest a lot of the time when people say stuff like this it is because the official is sticking to the law. I saw one absurd situation where a French guy get very pissed off about the fact that he couldn't get the 6th tourist visa in a row. His excuse was "I have always done this, this is how it works".

The official came back with "You weren't supposed to be doing this, it is against the rules, you are not a tourist."

He then ranted and raved about how racist it was and such. Thailand has never been particularly ex-pat friendly. They love tourists, and welcome them with open arms, but just because you invite someone to your house for dinner does not necessarilly mean that you are going to be happy when they decide they have a right to stay the night.

I have witnessed people being told to "fuc_k off back home" with no provocation numerous times in the UK (especially when I lived in Liverpool) but never here. People tend to be very tolerant.

-OKS

No-one ever told me to eff off home, when I lived in England, except perhaps in jest.

SC

The simplest solution to prevent corruption in Thailand is for all those farang tourists, foreign expats and foreign businesses owners in Thailand to all go back to where they came from. Then we wouldn't have this discussion.

I reckon a more elegant solution would be to put whoopee cushions on all the seats in the Thai parilament; I doubt it would be very effective, but it would be very entratining, and it would be equally effective in preventing future flooding, as well.

I reckon then we would stuggle to hold this conversation, particularly if we'd been drinking...

SC

They're not such a problem on over-ground systems with 3rd rail instead of overhead line. But I doubt that the full reasoning for the prohibition was cascaded down to the staff in question.

As I recall, I have never had such a problem with either my son or my daughter, even when accompanied by a balloon.

Unfortunately, when people start exciting and agitating one another with hype about terrorist security, common sense often comes away the worst victim*

SC

* except for Stumpy the Iranian, of course, but he had no-one to blame but himself

I worked at the Ear Nose and Throat hospital next door a decade or more ago...it was a big indie venue back then....I used to nip in for the occasional pint. The girls were always game to hop down the road to Bagleys or the SW1 club afterwards.

Yeah the on call nights were fun!

It's a small world ... my sister fell in love with one of the doctors there ... damm near broke her heart!

He was a Pom ... I have to ask her if she can remember his name!

Speaking of my sister I actually got her to Thailand for the first time this last year.

Just had to dispell all the negative BS about the place.

She had a blast and intends to return later this year with her daughter.

OMG...SC....I think its him!

Edit: Yeah its funny how people's perception changes after they've actually visited the place. imo its a great place for young kids to holiday.

Trust me, I'm a doctor...

do you have any old business cards from The Doctors?

SC

and...don't say: 'but you shall be dead, tutsi and not capable of hearing anything...'

I'm gonna fake my death....yes, I will, I will, I will...

If I was faking my own death, I'd hope I'd start laughing before they got too carried away

SC

"You know, I could have sworn I heard someone say 'there's no handle on this side!'

I agree with SC above, but, having agreed, I do own dividend paying Thai shares.

The reason that I own Thai anything is that, for me, is diversification.

All my assets are in my countries currency which is close to an all time high against the Thai Baht, so it makes sense to diversify.

So, when you buy Thai anything, have consideration for the exchange rate because it is important.

There is a 10% non-residents tax to pay on the dividends.

When I got to Thailand last year for a holiday there was 90,000 Baht in dividends waiting in my Bank Account, ready to spent inappropriately ... and partly were!

My very limited investments in Thailand are held through HK-based unit trusts with trustworthy organisations like McPoppy & Dope

SC

if you came here ten years ago and invested all your savings in nothing more exciting than a Thai bank account denominated in Baht, you would have made a handsome profit.

That depends very much on where you came from. The euro, Canadian dollar and Australian dollar are all stronger now compared to the Thai baht than they were ten years ago, so having the money in a THB bank account would have lost you money. The same is the case for the New Zealand dollar, the Swiss franc and all the Scandinavian currencies.

Sophon

Yes you're right, I should have been more specific. For those from the UK or USA, this simple strategy would have paid dividends. My point was not really that everybody should transfer all their cash over here and leave it in a bank. It was that it is ridiculous to continue to propagate the notion that Thailand is somehow unsafe as a country for investment purposes when, year after year, this proves not to be true.

I am too lazy to dig out figures but over the last decade you could have made a nice profit investing in shares here too.

A few years' stability does not make it a safe place to invest. That is one of the main reasons why you can make big profits; or lose them

SC

Plenty of time for Wakefield..

SC - Smokie ... I have a soft spot for Wakefield as the first Pub (and only Pub) I worked in London was named the 'Pinder of Wakefield' and apparently is now known as the Monto Water Rats.

http://en.wikipedia....onto_Water_Rats

When we (my sister and I) worked there it was just an old time Victorian Music Hall that had a stage and bands occasionally played there.

It was when I first met the Pogues before they got famous.

The lead singer, (who I thought was called Shaun but the article names him as Shane) had a face only a mother could love and more gaps then teeth, but a heck of a nice chap.

Segueing back ... where is Wakefield in the premiership ladder?

Are they a halfway decent team?

Wakefield were lucky to stay in Superleague last season, as they entered administration; had Celtic Crusaders not folded, they would have lost their license to Widnes, who were promoted from the Championship. They're a very well-established club, though - one of the original clubs from the Northern breakaway league in 1895.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/rugby_league/tables/default.stm

Although they're languishing at the bottom of the table, they played a great game on Sunday with "some very very very good tries" (Ray French)

SC