StreetCowboy

My apologies for missing this:

Weekend just passed - the Bangkok Sevens - postponed from November due to flooding...

http://www.asian5nations.com/node/495

http://www.voxy.co.nz/sport/hong-kong-win-bangkok-sevens/5/114660

Good result for HK, even if the Japanese first team was on duty in Nevada. Not so good for the UAE and Philippines...

SC

Anyone else going to the HK Sevens towards the end of next month?

You sound like a real barrel of laughs to live with Mr shorts.

So muslim's desire to convert the whole world to muslim, including you and me, at any cost, is not objectional then. Glad we got that clear.

Many, if not all, religions would like to convert the whole world. I am unclear where you found the "at any cost" idea.

I am considered by some to be quite the "life of the party" with a dry wit and try very hard to bring joy into this world.

If I'm not wrong, Islam is specifically tolerant of other religions. However, it is not tolerant of apostasy.

I can't comment on Mr Shorts' humour, other than to concur with Oscar Wilde: brevity is the soul of wit.

SC

I see an opportunity here, (But not one I'll take up myself)

Forget the horses and football pools, how about laying bets on seeing who kills more this year, the van/mimi-bus drivers, or Iranian bombers. Or should we include all Muslims with explosives? What's the count so far? .. if we include the mad-arse seperatists in the South. ...

Indeed. Before everyone starts panicking and thinking with their brainstem it is worth remembering that you are more likely to die in a traffic accident than by a terrorist - by many orders of magnitude.

Not if you carry grenades in your pocket.

SC

Unless you give up the pocket billiards...

Muslims ................ are peaceful and reasonable people who respect other religions and freedom of worship

.

Yeah right...try to set up any 'house of worship' in a Muslim country and see how you fare...!

I used to go to St Mary's Church in Dubai. It was very popular with the Filippinas.

SC

Man those Bangkok Taxi drivers are crazy: - Some guy throws a grenade at him while his driving blows up his taxi so he gets out an chases him! Got balls that guy.

In a similar vein, you might like to google Billy Connolly's account of the firebomb attack on Glasgow Airport...

I couldn't quickly find a transcript.

SC

Allah indeed works in mysterious ways!

If 'it' was real, of course, and not just a deluded load of nonsense written in the Bronze Age, now followed by brain-washed millions around the globe....

I believe that the Quran was written between 610 and 632 AD.

I think it helps to hide one's ignorance by avoiding factual errors

SC

Thank goodness the Iranian "wanna be" was an amateur and his mission wasn't totally carried through. I realize my Western thinking is different than the governments, but you would think the govenment would take this as a "wake up call" and get serious instead of acting like nothing serious is happening in the capital city. Also, don't they realize countries today have terrorists problems of some sort and tourists are (usually) not scared off - it has happened in London, Paris, New York, Madrid, Jakarta...the list goes on and these cities are still receiving tourists. What will scare people off is the government's denial of "evil doers" and not taking any pro-action about it.

I don't think that the government has said what they are doing, nor what their security services. What they have said is that they don't want the general populace to do anything, nor to panic.

I don't have a good view of everything the thai security forces do, but if I was a senior officer therein, I'd be making sure that the next 'normal crime' didn't occur on my patch...

SC

Too be honest I dont know why anyone in their right mind would frequent one of these clip joints, there is certainly none of the so called sanook factor.

At least the Thai bars know about customer service.

Indeed. The only thing that spring to mind, would be that many expats feel very insecure when they can't chat with their fellow countrymen.

I would go further than that and say many expats appear scared of entering areas where they might have to mingle with Thai men.

Wow. I've heard or experienced that before. Doesn't mean that you don't have a point, but if you are proven right, it would surprise me.

Maybe he means places like Obsession at the back of Nana Plaza...

SC

You're problem is that you have cherry picked a definition of "culture" to support your contention and you have picked the wrong one.

I concur. The question is loaded.

The usual Paranoid answer UG.

To be fair, it was on the rhetorical diatribe end of the questioning scale, not the wryly quizzical

SC

Sometimes, no matter what people say, you just have to go for it. All you need to remember is protect your assets and protect yourself. Be aware that there could be pitfalls and try not to be taken in. Although this sounds stupid and contrary to what I posted earlier, most people, even when asking for advice, have already made their minds up and don't pay attention to what advice is given.

You can make a decision on a permanent relationship once you've been living together a few years, and got to know each other better,

Don't people bottle up and repress their emotions and hide their private lives any more? Whatever happened to the stiff upper lip and swallowing the bitter fruits of experience?

SC ... with a statement like that, you would have to be a Pom?

I'm wrong ... oh, what the heck.

BUT ... I do agree with the premise of your proposition.

Maybe it's the newer members who are more forthcoming with their experiences?

...

Well they should jolly well bottle it up till they know how to behave on a public forum. Sadly, I fear this is not the best place to learn such behaviour...

SC

To the OP:

Following my brief 'back-and-forth' with Bendix, and having read the Original Post more closely...

I have no idea what you are talking about, Quietman.

I think you might need to give us some examples.

You might need to set your stall out in a more logical way, starting with observed facts, and then working towards the point that you want to make.

Let me try and help.

1. There is some bad behaviour around that can be observed, or at least heard about through the newspapers and the complaints of others.

2. People generalise from this, and say that all Thais take bribes, drive drunk, don't smile at me when I hold the door open etc.

3. 'Thai apologists' say "that is their culture and learn to live with it".

As I understand it, you are trying to make one of two points:

Either

- It (1) is bad behaviour that is no more prevelant here than anywhere else, and therefore neither Thai culture nor particularly relevant to a Thai forum

Or

- It (1) is endemic in Thailand (i.e. (2) is more or less correct), but is not rooted in Thai culture, and could be changed and should be deprecated on this forum.

Let's face it, even if you're just having a kick-about you should still mark out your goals.

Now we've got our coats down, perhaps we can kick off again...

SC

I'm not sure I agree with sysard when he tries to suggest that greed etc are western values imported into Thailand. Greed, avarice, selfishness etc are innately HUMAN characteristics which have been part of human life since the year dot - it doesn't matter what cultural attributes your nation or race has, individual human characterstics will always pervade.

The traditional British cultural attribute is politeness, orderly queueing, a certain sang froid or stiff upper lip, yet the pervasive behaviour of the average Brit in 2012 is nothing like that. It is the class of individualism v culture.

I dont profess to be an expert on Thai culture, but I would imagine most people would think it is centred around things like grace, gentility, respect for elders, family, serenity etc. Again, modern Thai individuals are not universally like that also.

Which raises the question of why? I would suggest it's because of the rise of the individual at the expense of the collective. We're all important now. We all want everything because, in the words of the advert 'Because we deserve it'.

Consumerism, relative affluence, our gradual progression up the Maslow hierarchy of needs pyramid. These are the things which have created a range of human behaviours which have everthing to do with being human and nothing to do with being Thai, English, German or from Bongobongo tribe in the Lesotho jungle.

I don't think the majority of British people ever displayed the cultural values that we aspire to. However, we are blessed with a certain distance from the neds and chavs of earlier days, while their contemporary equivalents are all too present among us.

No doubt the same could be said of Thais.

SC

The remaining four, who sought to take the discussion forward, ALL misunderstood the OP as an anti-Thai tirade, whereas on the contrary he was querying why people attribute apparently-common poor behaviour to culture.

No he wasn't. He was deliberatly talking about what he sees as bad behaviour in Thais as being part of or not part of Thai culture.

Had he done as you suggested, it would be an interesting debate - is binge drinking and football hooliganism amongst young English men, for example, inextricably linked to English culture? Is a sense of coldness and intellectual austerity intrinsically linked to Scandinavian culture? Is operating scams linked to Nigerian culture?

By focussing solely on some negative personality traits by some Thai people (personality traits that are increasingly common across EVERY country in 2012) as part of something innately Thai, he is revealing his true colours.

I thought his question was:

"in short, do you feel that putting anything disfunctional, selfish, arrogant, self serving, erratic and down right stupid down as 'its their culture' is the easy way out for the thai apologists here on tv. why can't we just call it as it is ?"

I think the real question is how much of this observed Thai bad behaviour is actually down to western influence? that is what we should apologise for. Vanity, greed etc is all there when you watch adverts on Thai TV which are mostly adapted from western ads selling western products - beautiful hair, beautiful skin, fast car, latest phone, latest computer.

The OP says he hasn't seen good manners and politeness, well he obviously doesn't live among Thais, I do and I see people wai to each other, smile and say hello to each other, children having respect for their parents. A different picture emerges when I walk around and encounter other farang who completely ignore you when they pass by and look away if you try to smile and try to say hello (paranoid or what?).

So are you saying that vanity and greed are Western ideas that the Thais have imported?

I put it to you that the Thais have imported the technology (TV, advertising) and applied their own values; the Singha beer advert that I recall, for example, makes a big show of the "Thainess" of their beer, and beer as a link to your cultural heritage. Possibly more relevant to Germans than Thais, but nevertheless, an advert riddled with cultural specificity, and with the implied message "Drink Singha to be Thai - wherever you are". A good advert, I thought, but not sure how effective it would be with Thai viewers. However, the main protagonist is a Thai aspirational idol - light-skinned, handsome, drives an expensive car, respected by poor blokes while hiking in the hills, in touch with his culture, successful overseas and a match for the farang at their own game and homesick.

SC

The remaining four, who sought to take the discussion forward, ALL misunderstood the OP as an anti-Thai tirade, whereas on the contrary he was querying why people attribute apparently-common poor behaviour to culture.

No he wasn't. He was deliberatly talking about what he sees as bad behaviour in Thais as being part of or not part of Thai culture.

Had he done as you suggested, it would be an interesting debate - is binge drinking and football hooliganism amongst young English men, for example, inextricably linked to English culture? Is a sense of coldness and intellectual austerity intrinsically linked to Scandinavian culture? Is operating scams linked to Nigerian culture?

By focussing solely on some negative personality traits by some Thai people (personality traits that are increasingly common across EVERY country in 2012) as part of something innately Thai, he is revealing his true colours.

I thought his question was:

"in short, do you feel that putting anything disfunctional, selfish, arrogant, self serving, erratic and down right stupid down as 'its their culture' is the easy way out for the thai apologists here on tv. why can't we just call it as it is ?"

There have been 12 replies to this thread when I write this.

1 thread offered some constructive criticism of the OP, and suggested two additional meanings of culture that could be considered.

Five were responses to other comments, that did not particularly add to the discussion, nor detract from it.

The remaining four, who sought to take the discussion forward, ALL misunderstood the OP as an anti-Thai tirade, whereas on the contrary he was querying why people attribute apparently-common poor behaviour to culture. I'm assuming, from the language used, that those four were from Western posters. What is it about Westerners that makes them deliberately argumentative and so prone to jump to conclusions which are opposite to the meaning of what someone says?

Is it from watching too many court-room dramas?

Straying back on topic, rather than bickering for the sake of bickering, some posters have suggested that Thais have a much more hierarchical sense of politeness than Westerners (by this I mean people of Western European cultural descent, whether they live in the UK, France, USA or elsewhere). They are polite to those who could give them benefit, or who are higher up in the hierarchy, and less so to those below. When dealing with strangers, or people they cannot directly relate to (e.g. in a car, especially behind a tinted window) that hierarchy and politeness breaks down.

Personally, I think that could be a product of a more feudal society, compared to an urban society, where we have been surrounded by strangers with whom we live and work; which in turn is why people who live in the villages, where everyone knows everyone else's position in the hierarchy, appear to get on better.

SC

Why not bring her over to your country for a few weeks? The flight costs the same.

SC

I reckon if losing your house means more to you than losing your wife then you probably shouldn't have got married. Or a mortgage.

SC

let's just end this thread.

EVeryone who thinks its the doom of a relationship once you get out of thailand, post a picture of yourself.

There is NO way you do not look like the guy in my avatar. Meaning that your opinion on the matter is kind of pointless because even if you brought your thaiwife to an other part of thailand where young farang males are available, they would leave you. Most countries have a lot to offer for thais and in canada thai products are usualy CHEAPER than in thailand for the most part if you look around and find a good asian store. If your thai is only used to thai food, thai friends and thai soaps, then WHY are you with her outside of sex? Just buy a fleshlight or a real doll.

A bit harsh sir, and more than a little bit assumptive.

If your point is that there are some guys ( many guys ) in Thailand who are batting out of their league then there is no shock there.

The shock you may get is that a lot of Thai ladies cannot stand dating younger farang men............yes they may look a lot more pleasing to the eye but they bring problems with them too.

So I would suggest the thread should not be ended as you request on the basis of appearance alone, I think you'll find personality types are more important.

Didnt say anything about age. Ony looks/personality.

Most if not all people saying women are gold digging whores on this forum are all fat, poorly dressed and have crappy personalities with no life interest outside of hitting the pub to watch men chase a ball around like dogs. Their only way to get a lasting relationship where they dont get fleeced anywhere in the world is to either live in a 20 person village or get a mentally challenged woman.

their opinions are worthless on relationship matters as they have no relationship. They are just providers

Oh, you charmer!

Actually, the bloke in your avatar has a great personality. He's the life and soul of the party, and a witty raconteur, whose body has been wracked by years as a bon vivant.

If I were you I'd not get too carried away until you trust her.

Until that time, why bother with "tests"?

SC

Now I go cleanin' windows to earn an honest bob. For a nosy parker it's an interestin' job

Could this be an opportunity for the most famous Scots' player of the four-string, Billy Connolly, to redeem himself from the lows he has found himself on the wrong side of the pacific? Does he even know? Does he even care?

Sadly, I doubt I shall be in attendance; I hope I shall be waiting for a certain little lady to pass by - oh me, oh my!

SC

my wife and her friends often have card games on the go on our back terrace...I like to appear in my underwear and appreciate their giggling response...as I scratch my crotch suggestively: 'hey, you look like you got some good winnin's over there and I need beer money...'...the wife keeps her eyes on her cards and sez: 'get outta here tutsi, we got a card game goin' over here...'

...they should all be down the market sellin' vegetables but our rear terrace card games and my underwear displays are irresistible...I better watch out or I could get arrested for 'falang disruption of thai commerce...' in gaol in me underwear...

Your underwear ???

I stand in awe...

And its try time again - in both stadia

Welshman Lee Briers converts his own try to make it 44-10, and Scotland pull a try back to make it Wales 27 - 13; Scotland's first try in five games...

"That's the end of a terrific afternoon's entertainment, and, Mickey Higham, you knew you this was a game you could win, but perhaps not 50 -10"

Looking good for another great season...

and elsewhere, less happy news (unless you're Welsh, like Lee Briers)

Scotland eschew an easy penalty in front of the posts, but can't force their way over the tryline but it ends 27-13

and elsewhere elsewhere, Huddersfield welcome Widnes to the Big Boys League with a 66-6, after last week's defeat by Wakefield in Widnes

SC

I also believe Thai system is geared towards decent base salary .

This statement kind of defeats the rest of your argument.

I don't see Thai's tipping in Thai places nor i see any service charge added etc. I.e. i believe Thai's have not traditionally used system where restaurant staff earns a living from tips or service charges. And i'm talking restaurants now, not beer bars or gogo's where they indeed get paid "commission" on drinks and other services.

Not an expert on Thai culture so correct me if i'm wrong. It just something i haven't seen.

Let's put it this way.

Let's say a employee is getting paid 15k a month. If he/she works in restaurant you feel obliged to tip her 20% on top salary. If there is service charge added you question the manager and name and shame here if it is not given to employees.

If he/she works in department store with same money do you still tip her 20% on your purchases. No you wont. Just because it's not a restaurant. Actually you find it outrageous if staff at department store would demand tip from you.

You continue to behave as you were still in Kansas. That's how you are programmed. Nothing bad about it, we all do the same in certain issues regardless where we come.

It seems that "i wont get it" regardless of how much we debate. But honestly, this is the opinion of someone not coming from the US system of having restaurant staff to work on commission basis. You asked for opinions so there you have it.

I think its (service charge) a win-win to tie the pay to the staff to the turn-over of the business.

When you can afford it, and the staff are busy, they get paid well.

When times are hard, they share the pain (and perhaps find it easier to find a job with a successful business). There's nothing worse than being paid too much for being unproductive in a job you don't enjoy.

I just wish prices were quoted inclusive of service, tax and fuel.

SC

Due to some temporary high spending on an investment, we have to cut down on the weekly allowance for personal expenses, mostly food & beer.

Winnie. I must compliment you on this one.

It turns out tarts shouldn't be counted as food.

SC