JimGant

Out of curiosity, what is your home country? Would love to see what onerous taxation is on the horizon, based on your DTA.

BOI also wanted my 1040 -- but since it was joint, it made no sense without 1099 delineation. Thus, my 1099s, with an explanation sheet, breezed right thru.

Having a hard time envisioning this scenario, for foreign remitted income. Let me suggest a straw man, say a private pension paid by Ford, periodically. And let's say the pension is paid and remitted in the same year -- thus this straw man would apply for both a remittance and for a worldwide tax situation. First -- the Thai-US DTA gives "exclusive" taxation rights for private pensions to Thailand (but the US retains secondary taxation rights, due to the "saving clause" in the DTA). Thus, in March (or is it April?) of 2025 I need to file a Thai tax return for 2024 income, assuming the Ford pension amount plus other assessable income dictates so. So I do, and say the taxes owed on the Ford income came to $2000, using the mandated FX rate (whatever that may be -- for remitted income, simply use FX for date of transfer -- but for worldwide income, either year average or end of year rate. Dunno.) Voila. Thailand, as exclusive/primary taxation authority -- gets to keep the full $2000. No "grab back" in this scenario. They just need to provide a credit amount for US taxation purposes, to avoid double taxation. Now, I do my US tax return for TY2024 -- I can wait 'til June 2025 to do it, since I live abroad. And I can use the Thai $2000 tax as a one-for-one credit against my US taxes (there can be limitations -- but any disallowed credits can carry over to later years). I have to fill-out and file a Form 1116 for this credit. And also file a Form 8833 -- a form that shows that the tax treaty trumps the Tax Code, overriding the the requirement that foreign tax credits are only good for foreign taxes on foreign income. Now, you can file your US tax return. TurboTax will accept a Form 1116 - but not a Form 8833. But, if you want to file electronically, TurboTax will allow you to without the Form 8833. You just have to eventually mail it to the IRS, with info associating it with your original electronic filing. The US tax filing doesn't require any substantiating documents for the Thai tax credit. Thus, you could even figure out what your Thai tax would be -- on the back of an envelope. No need to wait 'til the actual filing of a Thai tax return. Thus, clear to file your US tax return early in the year. As an observation. The only scenarios where Thailand would absorb a tax credit for US taxes paid -- is for rental incomes on immovable property, and for capital gains, on immovable property. This is because the DTA gives the US -- where the immovable property is located -- primary taxation authority. But, it does give secondary taxation authority to Thailand. Thus, the US keeps all the taxes collected -- but Thailand can also tax this income -- but only gets to keep what's left over after absorbing the tax credit, if any. Again, on the back of an envelope, I could determine what, if any, Thai taxes would remain after subtracting out the tax credit. If negative, I wouldn't even bother filing a Thai tax return, if this was the only income subject to taxation. But what if there were some positive tax collection after the credit? I guess, then, I should file a Thai tax return. But where on this filing would I put the tax credit from my US tax return? Maybe on line 13 from this excerpt from a Thai electronic Thai return? Dunno. But, having no rental property, not overly interested.

Shouldn't the guidance for this thread come from the OP? (chuckle, chuckle)

Right on! Where's Mike Lister when we need him.....?

Actually, in my case, it would be EXACTLY the same. My checking account only contains non assessable income (direct deposits from my Air Force pension and from Social Security). Thus, when my bank does a monthly direct debit from my checking account to pay off the Visa charge for purchases I made in Thailand -- I maintain that characterizes the "loan" I received from Visa for the Thai purchases the same as the payback, i.e., non assessable. No different than a Wise transfer of non assessable income from this same checking account.

What I say is common sense. But I have no problem with your desire to file a nil tax return, because the law says you have to due to exceeding the assessable income threshold. There's no "winner take all" with this discussion. The reader can see both sides of the argument, then decide to do whatever they're most comfortable with.

Yes, ignoring laws that have no practical value is what most efficient organizations do. That I might be called in for a chat, 'cause I tripped some wire when I bought high priced air conditioners at Home Pro, with my credit card -- and credit card purchases are deemed assessable income by Siam Legal -- give me a break. TRD isn't stupid enough to waste resources to query Home Pro about large credit card purchases by farangs, and then have to research whether or not those farangs were tax residents -- with the highly probable result that non assessable cash paid the credit card bill. TRD certainly can do cost/benefit analyses -- and the above scenario certainly wouldn't be a keeper. No, I'll certainly risk a 2000 baht fine for not filing 'cause I have 120k in assessable income -- knowing full well the chances of an audit are slight. And, with no tax evasion, nothing serious could happen, even if an audit occurred. Yeah, the same law firm that tells you you have assessable income using your foreign credit card in Thailand. That you're comfortable with their overall advice -- is ludicrous.

He's a charlatan. When you have time, grab a beer, kick back, and read this thread. https://aseannow.com/topic/1008555-tax-specialist-in-chiang-mai/

Which was exactly my point, to go after the Siam Legal beagles that just flatly said, "credit card purchases are a taxable event" Period. Without consideration of payment source. Anyway, I guess we're on the same frequency.

Not sure of your point.......if the credit card you use for purchases in Thailand is paid off with non assessable income/funds, then there is no taxable event. Plain and simple. What am I missing?

Ludicrous. Even if the credit card purchase I make in Thailand is not considered a loan, but a marker to be paid back from my checking account -- who's to say that money in my checking account is income, or even assessable income for Thai tax purposes? In my case, all the money in my checking account is from direct deposits from my govt pension and from social security. And this money is non assessable by Thailand, per DTA. Thus, when my bank direct debits my checking account, to pay back the loan -- it's tapping non assessable income. And this would be even more obvious, should I use a debit card, whereby the payment to Thailand is a near instant suck from my checking account. So, unless Thailand is treating all foreign remittances as assessable income -- even in the guise of a credit card purchase -- then you can't say all remittance scenarios are taxable events. And, it's unimaginable that Thailand is treating all remittances as assessable income, nor do they have the resources to parse all remittances for assessability (they would need a data base incorporating language from 61 DTAs). So, another situation where self-assessment is a necessity. Thus, Siam Legal seems to have a few holes in their thought process. Not sure I'd want to rely on any of their guidance.....

Ah, now I understand our disconnect. You're only remitting part of your rental income. And as such, you can call that remittance from either a gross or net figure -- and, of course, gross allows you to take the 30% deduction. I'd been assuming you were remitting all your rental proceeds. And since remittances are a cash flow situation -- and since cash expenses reduce you cash rental income -- then that rental remittance cash flow to Thailand -- would be net rental income. We were on different frequencies. But, when we go to worldwide income, this cash flow peculiarity will disappear -- and what will be subject to Thai taxation will be net rentals, i.e., using the US example -- the rental figure included in the "gross income" line on your 1040 (yes, a confusing contradiction of terms -- no one ever called the IRS bright). I guess a discussion for another day.

Actually, as you've subtracted out your only expense on that rental income, what you've remitted is your net rental income -- and you'd be on the wrong side of integrity if you subtracted out a further 30% deduction for expenses. So, no, you haven't remitted gross rental income. But, what many of us have said here -- what is remitted to Thailand is what is considered "gross taxable income" [gross, because it hasn't been reduced by standard deduction]. And taxable income is revenue minus expenses. And this is how you have to characterize cash flow remitted to Thailand -- it is an amount, not net of taxes, that both countries can use a baseline for their taxation purposes. Then, you have no reason to participate in a thread affecting expats. Jeez, it's your UK-Thai DTA that says Thailand has a secondary taxation right in your rental income. So how can you say you have no interest -- when what we're talking about is completely affected by the DTA?

Oh, ****, why do you go off on these stupid tangents. You've already said that you don't give tax advice, which is good, since you're not qualified. anr's observations are right on the money, at least as they apply to Yanks -- so it IS of interest to the American expat community in Thailand. First and foremost, Thailand is interested in remitted income, after it's been thrashed through the wringer, and comes out on a home country tax return as "gross income." For US rental income, it first goes through Schedule E wringing, where expenses are deducted from rental proceeds, and the resulting figure is put on line 5, "additional income," on Schedule 1. This figure is included in the final Schedule 1 figure, that is put on the front of Form 1040, and shows up in line 11 as "adjusted gross income." Thus, the net figure on your Schedule E, becomes a finalized gross figure on your Form 1040 -- and this is the amount you self-assess on your Thai tax return. Why declare your US rental income on a Thai tax return? Well, the DTA gives primary taxation rights for this income to the US. But it also gives secondary taxation rights to Thailand. So, to be correct, you're supposed to declare this rental income on a Thai tax return. However, Thailand has to give you a credit for the taxes paid to the US for this income. Thus, on the back of an envelope, you could determine whether or not this rental income, after subtracting the tax credit, even brings you into being a Thai taxable income situation. If not, and there are no other taxable income scenarios -- don't file -- if you have something more important to do, like a tee time.

Actually, if you're a Yank, you can still not be stupid by filing a Thai tax return to get back your withheld tax on interest -- and just take a tax credit on your US tax return for those Thai withheld taxes. No proof of Thai taxes withheld is needed with your US filing -- and if those taxes are below 20,000baht ($600), filing jointly ($300, single) -- only a single line item entry is required. For higher amounts, a Form 1116 is required -- but it's an easy fill. All this plugs easily into your TurboTax actions. The only requirement is that you're unable to get a refund from the Thai govt. But to get a refund, you need a TIN. And as we know from this forum, there are plenty of examples of folks being denied TINs for not having a work permit, etc. Good enough excuse for an IRS audit. Thus, one more reason not to get a TIN -- and to avoid all contact with the TRD.

Someone already explained that your "government pension" was actually a social service payment of some kind, not a pension for services rendered to German government. This would be akin to the UK, where their State Pension is not for services rendered to the govt -- and is taxable by Thailand. But a UK pension paid for service to the govt is solely taxable in the UK -- same for a German pension paid for your work for the govt.

....and your tax position, as shown by your filled-in null tax return, is that you don't owe any taxes. What could be easier to understand? Duh. But you're not, I hope, suggesting you unload all your remitted income data to the agent, and have her determine which is, and which isn't, assessable income -- which, of course, would involve her knowing your DTA's particulars -- which would be a ludicrous position to take. Seems to me some guy named **** actually did offload all his income data to TRD, to have them decipher which was, and wasn't, assessable income. I remember this distinctly because of its nonsense value.

Well, I guess there are two of you out there that filed a null tax return five years ago -- and were queried by the clerk as to why you were filing if you didn't owe taxes....

She thought you were crazy?

Taking the advice of a TRD official to do nothing -- sounds like official advice to me.... Come on, ****. You've been beating this subject to death for over a year now. I guess you're the kind of guy who always drives the speed limit in the fast lane -- driving the more realistic folks nuts.

OK. And Stat's talking about the equivalent of US Social Security.

Why do you say that? The DTA says German govt pensions are exempt from Thai taxation.

You're right. So, unless I have Thai taxable income, I won't file. However, you and your crowd, with 120k in assessable income, should plan to get a TIN, and to file, 'lest you worry over this. Nevermind the absurdity that you'd need another 440k in assessable income to even have any taxable income.

Is that because you'd now be paying more in total taxes between your home country and Thailand, if you were a Thai tax resident?