JimGant

Facts:

Married to a Thai. We built a house on "her" property. I've got the 30-year lease to remain on the property should she check-out first. We're in the process of rewriting her Will to accomodate the fact that she can no longer leave "all her earthly possessions" to me (which was the case years ago when it was written) due to Thai law on foreign land ownership. First marriage for both, no children.

Plan of Attack:

Will indicate in Will that should Thai law still preclude my inheriting the property, that my Thai niece will take title. (It would be nice if Thailand had Trust provisions for property, with the niece being Trustee; but this nice bit of law from Mother England apparently doesn't exist here.)

Questions:

1. Is there anything legally enforceable we could put in writing that could exert some kind of control over the niece by me (other than the lease) even though she'll own the land free and clear? My thinking is, what if 10 years as a widower, I'd like to sell the property and move on? We will have a written agreement with our niece over such things as, I'll pay all expenses, taxes, etc. related to the property. And the niece would probably honor any request I made, including selling the land. But something giving me legal power would be nice. (But I have no real hope any such written agreement would have contractual legality under Thai law -- just hoping---.)

2. How long can land title remain in a deceased's name, i.e., what are probate time-frames in Thailand? (If I could wait a couple years, maybe the law would change in that time.)

3. I can own the house. Anything to be gained by leaving the buildings to me? Can the buildings have separate deeds same/similiar to those existing for the land?

4. Whose the best lawyer in Chiang Mai to address this?

5. What questions should I have asked (and had answered)?

Many thanks in advance for any help you can provide.

I started the day at 8AM at the embassy picking up my "letter from the embassy"

Roger,

What's this 'letter from the embassy' all about? I thought I had all the requirements memorized by now, but this doesn't ring a bell. But, then, I'm still recovering from New Year's.

which then get you only a 90 day single entry NonImmigrant visa -- the one year "O-A" status still has to be completed with Thai Immigration in Thailand

The link to the above is:

http://www.thai-la.net/visa/retire.htm

All I know about retiring in Thailand visa-wise I have gleaned from this forum. Let me summarize, and then let someone more knowledgeable critique.

It is not really an "either or" decision for the NonImmigrant "O" or the retirement visa. The first can lead to the second. Yes, you see advertised on Thai Embassy DC and Thai Consulate LA websites instructions for obtaining an "O-A" retirement visa. But as best I can tell, this is an unnecessary hassle, requiring notarized police, medical, and financial certifications which then get you only a 90 day single entry NonImmigrant visa -- the one year "O-A" status still has to be completed with Thai Immigration in Thailand. So, to avoid the medical and police check hassle, it's best to request a multi-entry NonImmigrant "O" visa and then complete the retirement one-year stay process in Thailand. As such, no police background check and *probably* no medical checkup would be required -- only the financial requirements. (I say *probably* on the medical as there seems to be some uncertainty on this requirement. But even if required, the cost and simplicity of getting a medical clearance in Thailand is far superior to doing so in the US).

Your main obstacle might be in obtaining the NonImmigrant "O" visa. Each Embassy and Consulate seems to have wide discretion on its issuance. Applying for one with reason being "retirement" might require nothing more than proof of financial ability and a clean appearance. However, at places like Los Angeles, I have a feeling they would require upfront the entire "O-A" gamut, i.e., police, medical, etal. Anyway, the subject of obtaining an NonImm "O" is covered widely in this forum. Search on "Houston" for a start.

Finally, you may not want to get the one-year retirement visa extension if you plan to be in and out of the country extensively (my situation). If you can't be here the same time every year (for renewal), or are here for only 90 day chunks or less, the NonImmigrant "O" (no "OA" status) would be, IMHO, the best choice.*

* Question for someone: Is "O-A" actually stamped in the passport when you receive one year extension authorization for either retirement or marriage purposes?

Marriage registration in Thailand can be of benefit in obtaining a non-O visa for marriage/support. I don't think you can qualify for that visa unless your marriage is registered in Thailand

Not true, at least in the US. Just a copy of my marriage certificate (and a letter from the wife affirming we're still married, plus a copy of her Thai ID card). I've done this several times at the RTE in Washington.

My marriage took place in the US, so of course the certificate is in English. Maybe if original marriage certificate is NOT in English, other rules may apply.

Thanks, Doc.

A copy of the foreign marriage certificate duly certified by the Thai Ministry of Foreign Affairs will solve that problem.

Your Embassy or Consulate can certify both documents after a translator translates. ( for a fee of course ).

Doc,

Your answers above, both related to having foreign marriage documents certified as genuine, and their translation into Thai as also genuine, point to two alternatives. One, I can go to the US Embassy, or the US Consulate in Chiang Mai, for certification. Or, Two, I can have the Thai MFA, which I assume is also in Thailand, do the same certification. Can I also (Three) have this certification done in the Thai Embassy in Washington?

Just a little confused: On another thread, someone had mentioned they needed their divorce papers (as well as marriage papers) certified by the Thai Consulate in Chicago, with a certain colored stamp then affixed. This is all very unclear, but I don't want to have the wrong colored stamp when I waltz into Immigration for my visa extension.

Appreciate your help.

Went to the amphur to have the marriage registered in Thailand

KA1234,

Why did you feel the need to have your European marriage registered at the amphur? Does this open some future doors, perhaps towards permanent residency?

Dutch,

It really does get confusing for those of us trying to make the paperwork transition to Thailand. And doubly confusing, I'm sure, for those like you whose documents aren't in the often-accepted language of English.

At Thai immigration I'd bet I could get by with my English-only documents the majority of the time. But veterans here -- like Dr Pat Pong and Loburi3 -- point out that there's always the possibility the officer you happen to get may demand a Thai translation. So, I'm trying to find out how strenuous it is to do. Also, I'm only 10 minutes from the Thai Embassy in DC -- so if that turns out to be the easiest "competent authority" available, I'll just have to fight Key Bridge and Georgetown traffic -- but I'd prefer to gentler venue of Chiang Mai.

Someday someone with knowledge will build a FAQ page for this forum delineating in detail all the paperwork requirements for long-term stay in Thailand, caveated by: Must Have, Should Have, Nice to Have, and Rarely Required. Unfortunately, if not updated daily, it would become obsolete. No doubt that's why there's no such animal yet existing.

A copy of your US marriage cerificate needs to be certified as a true copy by a legally competent authority ( Thai Embassy or Consulate ) and you need to have the documents translated into Thai and also certified by a competent authority as credible translations.

Dr Pat Pong wrote the above a few months back.

Question for anyone: Can someone in Chiang Mai act as a "competent authority" in certifying a copy of my marriage certificate? DPP says "Thai Embassy or consulate," but assume he said so in the context of the thread initiator's location outside Thailand. So who, then, might be a "competent authority" in Chiang Mai?

Then I need to have it translated into Thai and have a "competent authority" certify that it is a "credible translation." Who might this be in Chiang Mai? Same guy as above?

Hopefully there is one "competent authority" location in Chiang Mai where I can bring my original US marriage license (eliminating the certified true copy step), have it translated into Thai, then have it officially blessed and stamped as a no shit translation of a certified US marriage license. But why, then, do I have this strange feeling that this would be too easy?

And if it turns out the competent authority is the Immigration Office, why then would I need it translated? I can just see me handing the original US marriage license to an officer, he translates it into Thai, certifies it, then processes my marriage visa extension. Gives a whole new meaning to circle jerk. Thus, this is probably the situation. Sigh.

Also, if I choose to use my pension in satisfying fiancial requirements, does my pension statement have to also be translated into Thai (after the Consulate certifies it as valid)?

Sorry to waste anyone's time on this, but searching under "translations" didn't offer much, except this thread.

Thanks for the quick reply and sound advice.

Lopburi3,

You've said before on this forum that you need to have 60 days of your 90 day visa go by before first applying for a one year extension based on marriage or retirement. Is this rule still in effect, and if so, how strenously enforced (particularly in Chiang Mai) is it, to your knowledge? Also, when the one year extension is granted, is 'day one' of this extension the day you last entered Thailand -- or the day the extension is granted?

When renewing this extension, does this 'no greater than 30 day' rule apply? And when is 'day one' for this renewal?

I haven't yet decided whether or not to extend my 'O' visa, as I currently come to Thailand four times a year in 60 day chunks, and the 'O' visa has worked just fine for that. But I can see situations where the one year extensions could be advantageous. But I can also see scenarios where I would have to leave Thailand 60+ days before the extension expires, and would not be back in time before its expiration. So an enforced '30 days or less' wouldn't work out.

Anyway, thanks for any advice you -- or anyone else -- can offer. Just trying to sort out my options

Jim Gant

Dr. Pat Pong,

In reviewing some earlier posts, I see where you say that marriage licenses should be translated into Thai prior to submitting to immigration for marriage visa extension. Is this still the case, to your knowledge, including those in English? And I assume it would have to be an official translation. Where and/or who does this? I'm near the Thai Embassy in Wash DC -- would they have translation service?

What other documents might need translation ino order to expedite visa extension? I might use my Air Force pension statement to meet financial requirements, and I realize this has to be certified by the American Embassy or Consulate. Is this certification in Thai; and if not, will I need to have it translated?

Thanks for your time.

Jim Gant

As I understand it, she could use here Thai passport for entry in Thailand but still use her U.S. passport for entry here when we visit.

Dave,

This might be tricky.

My wife has both Thai and US passports -- completely legal, as both countries recognize dual citizenship. And entering and leaving Thailand on her Thai passport would preclude any visa requirements for staying in Thailand, at least for her. However, we haven't tried this on our many Thailand-US roundtrips because of uncertainty on what would happen if one or the other immigration authorities discovered multiple passport usage. Instead, she uses her US passport exclusively. As a Thai national, she initially obtained a multiple entry one-year visa upon arrival at Don Muang immigration, and every year since has easily renewed it at Chiang Mai immigration (for 1000 baht, but this may have changed since Aug -- we'll soon find out). Anyway, it would be interesting if someone on this forum has the real skinny on multiple passport usage(?). But for now, the potential for having her US passport confiscated keeps us trudging to immigration once a year.

As usual, sound advice from Dr. Pat Pong and Lopburi3. Getting your wife's passport renewed, even if she never uses it, could help things when she applies for a new id card and home registration. I don't know how hard this id/home registration will be, as my wife, although a US citizen for 25 years, kept up her id and registry, I guess knowing she'd head back there someday. But I can't imagine it being too difficult -- and certainly something your wife will need to do.

As an aside, and assuming you don't have one already, you might be able to get your non-immigrant 'O' visa using your wife's expired passport. "Once a Thai, always a Thai" seems to be the prevailing theme at most embassies and consulates, so her expired passport and your marriage license probably would do the trick. Being from Corpus Christi, you have El Paso, Dallas, and Houston consulates to choose from. Dr. Pat Pong seems to endorse Houston, so that would be my first choice.

Looking at your original question, whether your wife renews her Thai passport or not, you, like me, will be heading to Thai immigration once a year to extend our visas. But I'm not fulltime yet -- and you're 5 years away. And a lot can -- and most certainly will -- change by the time we retire. Stay tuned.

Jim Gant

Alexandria, VA

DSW,

I've been waiting for someone in the know to answer your Houston question-------. Anyway, I'm not in the know, but Dr.PP sure is about many things, including "easy" consulates to obtain 'O' visas from. And the 'O' visa is certainly far superior to any other type you could get, and certainly worth a try with Houston.

Houston's Web page indicates that you should be in Texas to apply to them (or Dallas or El Paso consulates). But I really can't imagine them sending your passport back without action just because the return address is in California, especially if their workload is low that day. Even if you called Houston and they said their policy was Texas only, I bet it would come down to who opened your letter and what their disposition and workload was that day. I don't think Thai immigration has any policy in concrete, as becomes obvious the more you read immigration info on this forum. Anyway, what's to lose by trying, except maybe time?

It's interesting that LA's website states pretty emphatically that "studying" is not a valid reason for an 'O' visa. However, Chicago's website says "study and observation" is a valid reason. So, again, an example of no concrete policy for 'O' issuances. Obviously Houston subscribes to the Chicago way of thinking, according to Dr.PP, even tho' they don't have a definitive website of their own stating such (they defer to LA's website). So, give a shot, and let us know what happens.

Good luck.

Jim Gant

It's interesting to search the Web pages of individual Thai embassies and consulates in the attempt to glean immigration facts. No two seem to read from the same sheet of music, and, in fact, there seem to be completely different song books circulating. And the Hull consulate's Web page adds yet another twist in addition to one-year tourist visas (at least I'd never seen this option before anywhere, including this forum). I'm talking about the following:

http://www.thaiconsul-uk.com/Bvisas.htm

WRITTEN GUARANTEE:-

Persons requiring Non-Immigrant Visas who are not able to provide a letter of employment or appointment or marriage certificate are required to provide a letter of guarantee from someone who is prepared to meet any costs incurred by the applicant which they cannot pay themselves including the cost of repatriation if necessary.

The wording of such a letter to be as follows:-

Name of guarantor

Address of guarantor

Date

I (name of guarantor) have known (name of applicant) for ___ years and understand him/her to have sufficient funds to meet any reasonable costs which may be incurred during their stay in Thailand including the cost of returning to the UK. However, in the event of it being necessary I (name of guarantor) hereby undertake to meet any expenses which may be incurred by (name of visitor) including the cost of repatriation.

Signature of guarantor

Wow! A Nonimmigrant 'O' visa seems a much better visa than the Tourist example of this thread if one wants to spend a year (in this case, 15 months) in Thailand. I'm not sure what the 'gotcha' is, if any. Maybe you can't get the multiple entry variety(?). And some individuals might be hard pressed to find a guarantor. Anyway, even if this is creative visa interpretation by Hull, once you get the multiple entry Nonim 'O' stamp in your passport, you're good-to-go for 15 months, whether or not Hull was correct in issuing you one.

Has anyone else seen anything about a 'guarantor' for Nonim 'O' visas? Or is this strictly Hull?

If immigration knows you meet the income requirements for retirement visa they seem to prefer to issue that (perhaps because they don't have to check home life).  

Lop, your "check home life" has gotten my curiosity up again about opting for "marriage" or "retirement" extension on my "O" visa. (If there's a nice FAQ page somewhere comparing the two, please just point me in that direction -- I know a lot on this forum is repetitive rehash.)

First, I've been married to my Thai wife for 27 years, so I think it might last. But I also have the resources and age to qualify for the "retirement" extension. And I don't plan to work in Thailand. So, either extension avenue is an option.

Thus, the only difference that lead me to the "marriage" option was that I didn't need to get a medical certificate (which wouldn't be a problem, only an added irritant), and I wouldn't need a police report, which also wouldn't be a problem, but it is something I don't quite understand how to go about(?). (Does the US Embassy fill out a form saying I'm not currently on the 10-most-wanted-list, or what?) And "checking home life," as I understand it, shouldn't involve more than a photo of us at home, marriage certificate, plus I've got a 30-year lease on my wife's property here. Anything I'm missing?

The only other thing I can think of that could make the "retirement" option more viable up front is if my wife should die before I do. Since I'm not supporting any other family member over here, I guess this would put me in the same situation as "divorced," meaning I'd have to switch to the "retirement" option upon her death.

Any and all thoughts appreciated. Thanks.

Jim Gant

Kathe,

If you have your old Thai residency card, or an expired Thai passport (you apparently had to turn in your latest Thai passport to Austrian authorities), this should be all you need to get a one year, multiple entry visa from Thai immigration. At least this was the case with my Thai wife, who entered Thailand with a 30 day visa obtained at the airport (US passport), then went to immigration in Chiang Mai and got the one-year visa applicable to Thai nationals with non Thai passports. The cost (then) was no more than 2000 baht.

I would think any sort of proof that you're a Thai national (birth certificate, school diploma, whatever) would suffice. And Thai immigration certainly doesn't care that you now carry an Austrian passport -- you're a Thai national forever (but stay tuned. there may be a price tag on this distinction one of these days).

Good luck.

Jim Gant

Only had one experience with Thai immigration. That was when I got a visa for my Thai wife

Curveblade, If you're still married to your Thai wife, getting your NonImmigrant "O" before heading to Thailand should just require showing your marriage certificate. Also, as I understand it (Dr P or Lop please jump in), the requirement for getting one year extensions on your visa is much easier going the "married" route vs. "retirement" route, i.e., money requirement is less, no medical, police reports required.

Jim Gant

Lopburi3,

Thanks for clarifying some of my confusion. But one more quick question:

I've got the NonImmigrant "O" visa courtesy of being married to a Thai. This will expire soon as it (like everyone's, I assume) is issued for only one year. When I obtain the one year extension of stay by showing support, 400k, etc, can I do this indefinitely without ever leaving the country again? In other words, even tho' the NonIm "O" visa expires, the extensionj of stay essentially breathes new life into this visa. And thus there is no requirement to leave Thailand ever again to obtain a new NonIm "O" visa as long as I can get annual extensions of stay. Am I interpreting this correctly?

Many thanks for your time.

Jim Gant

You won't have to leave the country every 90 days with a marriage visa; and as pointed out, 400k of baht in the bank, but only once a year when you trot down to Immigration to renew your visa, is all you need. There is some kind of requirement to report your presence to Immigration every 90 days, but there's a form for this, and it can be done by mail or messenger. Also, I'm told, the account with the 400k in it can be joint with your wife -- immigration just wants a letter from the bank confirming this sum. So, if necessary, once a year borrow enought to reach 400k in your account, go see Immigration with your bank letter, extend your visa for another year, then the next day pay back the borrowed 400k.

I haven't done any of the above yet, but will soon. So, obviously someone out there correct me if I'm wrong. All I know is what I've gleaned on this forum; but sometimes my memory ain't what it used to be.

Jim Gant

Many thanks for the info.

Jim

Thanks for the response. Is Chiang Mai Ram a hospital?

Jim Gant

How does one go about finding reputable medical doctors and dentists in Chiang Mai? I need some dental work done soon; and I also would like to have an extensive medical physical accomplished (something I've put off now for too long). But I haven't the foggiest how to differentiate quacks from others; or whether a hospital or independent doctor's office is the way to go. In the States, you don't go to a hospital for a physical. But maybe in Thailand.......?  Anyway, probably asking my Thai friends for recommendations is the way to go. But if anyone here, familiar with Chiang Mai, could offer their advice and experience, I'd be appeciate it. Thanks.

Jim Gant

Lopburi3, many thanks for your info.

Yes, I've gotten 'retirement' and 'marriage' visas confused, being eligible for both. I had just assumed the only difference was 800,000 baht vs. 250,000 baht bank acct requirement. As you point out, there is a considerable difference in paperwork requirements between the two, with 'marriage' visa looking the less onerous (unless translating the marriage certificate, if required,  is more than the minimum effort it seems(?)).

Before the law was changed to allow wife to keep her Thai surnmame, I had considered going the 'retirement' visa route to preclude any fuss over her having kept her name 25 years ago when we married in the States. But that's no longer a factor --- so the 'marriage' visa looks the way to go -- unless someone reading this sees a quirk I don't (and it seems 'quirk' defines Thai immigration law interpretation

Thanks again for your time, Lopburi3.

Jim Gant