JimGant

Labelled by whom? If you send a Wise transfer, you're saying it's labelled as income? Makes no sense -- how would anybody in Thailand know it's income, if sent from one of your financial institution's accounts? Only if it's a direct deposit from, say, a pension payment -- would it have the flavor of income. But even here, it may not be income for Thai tax purposes (think: exempt due to DTA). So, labeling it "income" serves no purpose as far as the RD is concerned. And, labeling all incoming remittances as "income" would push all FDI to other countries. So, no, they're not going to label all remittances as income (which, if the obvious escaped you, would include FDI's) So logic and logistical common sense would dictate they're restricted to: PIT collection depends on taxpayers' faithful and full declaration of income in their PIT returns. Yes, sample audits for compliance may occur in larger numbers. And, FATCA and CRS reporting may increase the spotlight on compliance. But for Americans, nothing changes, since we're already taxed on our worldwide income. Possibly Thai RD may fine tune the DTA, and figure out that Thailand (per DTA) had "primary tax authority" on my IRA payout. Ok, then this is where "faithful and full declaration" comes in, and I need to file a Thai tax return, declaring my IRA payout as assessable income for Thai tax purposes. Then, I take this tax payment as a credit against my US taxes -- and break even in my overall tax payment situation (note: for high five figure income, Thai tax MAY BE higher than US, and the difference has to be eaten -- not a huge number, however). So, fellow Yanks. Go watch the NFL, and let the others worry about, hey, there may be taxes in their future.

This from a few pages back; it's from a technical explanation of a US DTA, but most DTAs are similar, being based on the OECD Model:

Not if it's not taxable.....Jeez.

....'cause you didn't include it on your tax return...... Give this circle jerk a rest -- RD is NOT interested in non-assessable income. Period.

I would suggest the RD doesn't care about income that is not taxable.

...but it can be invoked to not declare certain income.

And if your assessable income is above 60000 baht, and you're single -- you're supposed to file? Minimum wage is 300 baht per day, meaning if you work 6 days a week, 52 weeks a year -- 93600 baht is your annual income. Wow, a lot of minimum wagers, and sub minimum wagers, are subject to a 2000 baht fine. Can you define "ludicrous"?

Where did you come up with that? I would argue that assessable (taxable) income that is excluded from Thai taxation, due to the DTA, is NOT to be included on your tax return. If it were, on what line would you back it out with a negative number? Or, would you attach a note saying, "Forget X amount of income on page one, since it's really not taxable income, due to a DTA with the US." Or, do you just not include it at all on your return? One, two, or three -- give my your best choice.

You owe no Thai taxes on this -- in fact, it's excluded from Thai taxes per DTA. So, why would you file a tax return, that pays no taxes -- you really think that Thai RD resources, even if beefed up hugely, are going to sniff out all remittances into Thailand for income potential? Suggest you wait 'til they knock on your door -- before you knock on theirs.

And, based on this from the US technical explanation of US DTAs, if you remit cash flow to Thailand that is exempt from taxation in your source country -- well, then, it remains tax exempt in Thailand: US DTAs are based on the OECD Model, as are most of the world's DTAs. Yes, there are minor differences -- but doubtful Australia's tax exempt payments are NOT included in the OECD boilerplate language that dictates tax exempt income maintains its flavor in both contracting states. For a Yank, where govt pensions and social security are "exclusively" taxable only by the US -- I guess if these two sources weren't enough for my annual cash flow to Thailand, I'd establish a separate bank account with these two sources, plus my Roth distribution. Then, there could be no doubt of the non taxable source of my money wired to Thailand. And, since this wired money is non taxable by Thailand, then, I have no assessable income subject to Thai taxation, per the DTA -- and thus no need to file a Thai tax return (current rules, for single filers, is the requirement to file -- IF your assessable income exceeds 60000 baht ). Anyway, no tax avoidance/evasion here; thus, any knock on the door by khaki dressed revenuers would only result in possibly more paperwork, but no fines. But, unless RD hires 10000 more clerks, this ain't gonna happen.

Anybody used this part of Bangkok Hospital -- and if so, what's your assessment? Thanx.

.... unless you have one of three categories of an LTR visa. Then, per royal decree, or some such proclamation, nothing changes re tax exemption per remitting in a later year. Yeah, best decision I ever made -- no visits to Immigration for five more years, and no more 90 day reports (although, with online reporting, that wasn't really such a hardship). So, if you qualify, give it a good look....

Yes. And in this example, this is where you're required to file a Form 8833 to take the tax credit -- because the Thai taxation is on USA income -- and the Internal Revenue Code says foreign tax credits can only be taken on foreign income. Ah, but the DTA allows credits on Thai taxes on US income, to avoid double taxation. So, the Form 8833 needs to be filed, showing how the DTA trumps the Internal Revenue Code (no Form 8833 needed to take advantage of the DTA's exclusivity on Social Security and Govt pensions, since no Thai tax return filed, nor allowed, on this "exclusivity" of taxation by the US).

Absolutely. First, Yanks pay income tax on all their worldwide income, which, of course, would include any and all income subject to Thai income tax. So, assuming this initial guidance is true, which said, "If your home country has a DTA with Thailand, and you pay income tax in your home country, then you're not affected by this new ruling" -- well, Yanks are home free. Even the nebulous "if you pay income tax" in your home country, which possibly would, in some countries, not cover taxation of income subject to Thai income tax -- again, as a Yank, you DO pay tax on any and all income subject to Thai tax. Now, the DTA makes US Govt pensions, and Social Security, the "exclusive" taxing right of the US. So, if I wanted to isolate these payments as direct deposits to a separate US bank account -- then a Wise wire of these funds to Thailand would stand out as completely exempt from Thai taxes. [But, currently I Wise-wire these funds from a savings account over ten years old, and complete with former years' direct deposits and other fungible amounts of deposits. But, I would feel confident arguing what funds were actually wired -- not that FIFO or LIFO accounting would resonate with Thai authorities.] Anyway, the only thing that could possibly be changed with the new ruling is: I wire some of my cashed in IRA funds to Thailand -- and under current rules, I wire these in a later year, thus avoiding taxation. But the DTA says, Thailand has 'first taxation rights' on these IRA funds -- ok, but they don't, under their own (current) rules, that say it's not taxable if brought in in a a later year. But, yeah, under the new proposal, if I wire these IRA funds to Thailand in current year, or in a later year -- they're taxable by Thailand under the DTA. So, I have to declare these on a Thai tax return. But as my IRA funds aren't too large, the Thai tax would be considerably less than what the taxes would be on these same funds on my US return -- so the tax credit means the total taxation between the two countries is a wash. [The DTA saving clause says these IRA funds are NOT exclusively taxable by Thailand -- but have to be included in your US tax return.] Anyway, long explanation. Bottom line: Yanks won't be affected in their total tax bill, between US and Thailand, with these new rules. DTA keeps numbers the same -- maybe only a Thai tax return in your future, but at no cost but time.

I don't think any taxman in the world would accept your reasoning. "Show me all you've got!" And then it's THEIR decision what is taxable and what not. Well, maybe in your country. In the US, income tax is confined to cash flows that are defined as "taxable income." Just like Thailand's "assessable income." Thus, a gift from my aunt Martha, a loan from aunt Agnes, and an inheritance from dear old Mom -- would not have to be declared on my US income tax return. And, also, Thai social security is only taxable by Thailand, per DTA -- thus, again a cash flow omitted from my US tax return. Common sense, actually.

Invoked where? If my US govt pension is "exclusively" taxed by the US, who cares what year I bring it over to Thailand..... per treaty, it never plays any part in the Thai tax scheme, meaning: no reference to it is required in the filing of Thai taxes.

My read of this is: Private pensions are taxable "only" in Thailand. And per Article 19, Australian govt pensions are only taxable by Australia. Pretty much like the US. So, looks like Aussies will need to file a Thai tax return, since they, like the rest of us, won't have that "bring that private pension into Thailand next year" to escape taxation in Thailand.

Oh BS. My US DTA with Thailand exempts my Air Force and Social Security income from Thai taxation. And, as the US has "exclusive" taxation rights on this income, it is therefore not assesseable (taxable) income by Thailand -- and as such, doesn't have to appear in any Thai tax return (why would it have to, if it plays no part in the Thai taxation scheme?). What could be easier than, "just don't mention it in the Thai tax return, as it's not a player." Of course, on the US side of tax returns, it's included in my US return, and taxed accordingly -- with no needed reference to a related Thai tax return, as no credits here, as being exempted from Thai taxes, there could be no credits. Anyway, guess I'll have to have my Air Force and Social Security payments direct deposited to their own, separate bank account. Thus, my Wise transfers to Thailand, from this account, can be clearly shown as from "exempted" income. However, doubt we'll ever get there, as Thailand doesn't have the resources, or know how, to parse funds wired into Thailand.

'Cause assessable equals taxable -- and income excluded under a DTA is no longer assessable, for taxation purposes -- nor taxable, for assessable purposes. Thus, no tax return needed. Phew.

You would think so...... But here's a quaint quote re do you have to file, or not:

You will still (IF this goes ahead) be required to lodge an income tax return, declaring exactly what you have said above. If the Thai RD agrees with you, they will issue you a tax certificate/clerance. Or they might disagree and send you a bill ???? Negative. You're not required to file a Thai tax return if you don't have income that's taxable. So, my Air Force pension and Social Security payment are "exclusively" taxable by the US. Thus, it's not taxable by Thailand, and so no income tax return required. But, my IRA required minimum distribution *IS* taxable by Thailand, as per the DTA, they're the primary taxing authority for IRA distributions. Yes, I also have to declare this IRA payment on my US tax return, per the savings clause. And, per the treaty, I'll get a tax credit for the Thai taxes, thus having a no net tax increase/decrease between the two taxing authorities (yes, there can be some net differences, depending on tax ratios -- but this thread has already become too unbearable to elaborate).

Geez, it's so obvious that Thailand is now caught up by its short and curlies, with a procedure that will never work -- because of the REMITTANCE aspect of their approach to taxation. And the remittance aspect of taxation was established years ago to allow Thai fat cats an avenue for tax avoidance. So, if Thailand wants to realize more tax revenue -- and why wouldn't they -- then drop the remittance aspect, and just concentrate on "foreign assessable income." Anyway, as one example of just going to taxing foreign income, irrespective of remitted, or not -- and why it's doable, practical, and a money earner: As a US citizen, living full time in Thailand, the DTA says that my IRA proceeds are first priority taxable by the country of my residence, i.e., Thailand. But since their existing rule said, no it wasn't taxable, because it was remitted in a later year than derived -- well then, the US, using its "saving clause" in the tax treaty, says: Thank you, Thailand, we'll collect the taxes on this IRA, with no tax credit payable, since you stupidly didn't tax it. Thus, a smart Thailand would assess the current world of data exchange, particularly CRS and FATCA - where you now can see foreign income of your tax residents -- and come to the conclusion that: It's smarter, more practical, and more efficient to tax foreign derived income -- full stop -- without a remittance requirement to it. Yes, I'd then probably have to file my IRA proceeds as income on a Thai tax return (using the honor system, but backed up with FATCA data) -- but I'd get this all back, as a credit, when I file my US tax return. And Thailand would get the taxes they're entitled to via the treaty, which is fair. I could handle that. As for the Thai fat cats? Well, they'll no longer have an "out" to deny foreign income via the remittance ruse. And that's why, I'm afraid, the remittance aspect of any new Thai approach to taxation -- won't be dropped. Sigh.

What countries might those be? Remittance taxation vs income taxation seems so weird. Are these OECD countries? Thanx.

Well, there could be a case, where a very large amount of a US private pension is paid, and remitted to Thailand, in a tax year. The Thai tax on that amount could exceed the US tax on that same amount. So, under the rules, you'd only get a tax credit up to what the US tax would be on that same amount. So, yeah, those extra Thai taxes over the amount allowed as a credit against your US taxes -- would now be a gotcha in the new era of remittance taxation on income.

Only Americans will be paying no more taxes on their worldwide income under this new Thai tax proposal. Thus, all the complaints we're hearing on this thread must be from all those who have been getting a tax holiday by leaving their home country for Thailand -- and now that door is closing.