UKresonant

9 hours ago, JontS said:

Done some more reading and I have a more specific question now.

I've read the guide and if I understand this correctly, as long as the increase in price on my apartment took place before 2024, it will not be taxable in Thailand. There was a huge price jump in about 2020 when the appraisal process was changed. I would be able to document this with reports from the "cooperative apartment" complex I live in. I have not yet sold my apartment, but plan to do so later this year or early next year. This is the uncertain part for me, i.e. whether it needs to have been sold before 2024 or not. Any comments appreciated.

 

https://aseannow.com/topic/1324294-intr … e_vignette

 

48) The proceeds from the sale of a capital item such as overseas property, where funds are remitted to Thailand, is one popular source of expat funds, the sale of some investment products such as stocks, shares and bonds is another. Those proceeds typically comprise two parts, capital and profit (or gain). If the capital and/or gain was acquired before 1 January 2024, it is free of Thai tax. If they were acquired after that date, they are potentially subject to Thai tax at PIT rates.

Unless you actually sold and repurchasedyour property prior to 1st Jan 2024 generating a new pricing point, I can't see how the interim valuations would be helpful.

When you sell your property, will Thai RD not request your home country tax docs

Probably, nearly surely, you should aim to not be Thai tax resident at the point of the property sale that generates the gain.

1 minute ago, UKresonant said:

For the UK born kid we just went to the Embassy and obtained a Thai birth cert as mother is Thai.

 

Then Thai passport.

 

ID card was much later. (after having to give tea money to encourage the local office in Thailand to do their job ) can't change to her married name unless she goes back to the office in Thailand. So still has all docs in her maiden name....

 

Don't know if she could pass Thai nationality to my Grandson or not.

37 minutes ago, jaxon said:

Kid was born in UK and had a Thai passport previously.  New Thai passport not possible as no Thai ID (not living in Thailand as adult). Question, does he still retain Thai citizenship or does it need some kind of confirmation?  He does not need a new Thai passport I am just wondering if he remains Thai and has a right to one/residency in the future. 

For the UK born kid we just went to the Embassy and obtained a Thai birth cert as mother is Thai.

Then Thai passport.

ID card was much later. (after having to give tea money to encourage the local office in Thailand to do their job )

Don't know if she could pass Thai nationality to my Grandson or not.

Name added, to the petition. 

The increase is way over the top by at least £10k of nasty ness....

The last I read they were saying they were fudging it be phasing it, have they issued a new financial criteria annex PDF somewhere?

15 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

Having taken another look at the TRD note, it strikes me that a fundamental flaw with it throughout is that it doesn't differentiate between foreign-sourced income which is assessable and that which is not.

If they issue a new / updated return form, fingers crossed it will clarify.

If obtaining "tax authority certificate" like a " letter of confirmation" from HMRC whether it would reflect any DTA provision or (more likely) not. If not, how does, for example .Gov pensions remain as 'Taxed only in the UK' It does ask the purpose for requesting, but is that a process tick box or (less likely perhaps ) Is it processed to suit the reason requested.

Will have to see if I can find.examples on the/ a tax forum.

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Unless/until the tax return form is redesigned and reissued, there is nowhere on the form to report excluded or exempt income which I don't believe they want to see reported anyway.

5 hours ago, OJAS said:

Just come across this TRD note (apologies if it has already been referred to in this thread):

 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/lorkhor/newspr/2024/FOREIGNERS_PAY_TAX2024.pdf

 

Page 5 sounds worrying though - seems to imply that ALL remitted income should be reported in tax returns, whether assessible or not.

 

 

It does mention the apportionment method for the relief. (That method circumstantially reinforced for CGT etc maybe). 

So it would seem that you have to list and provide the tax paid on say all your pensions, and the credit relief will be proportional to the amount remitted.

So say perhaps (for simplicity example)

UK state pension £10k

UK Employer pension £15k

UK Civil Service .GOV £ 5k (only taxed in UK re-DTA)

Private pension 1 £1285

Private pension 2 £1285

£32570 (UK personal allowance £12570) - THB 1465650

So say 20% tax above p.a. = £4000

Remit say £20k - THB 900k 

Tax credit 61.4% of £4000=£2546 - THB 110.5 k credit relief available.

But there should be no tax on the GOV pension, but it would be needed for the Credit relief Calc?

So will the just say the Gov pension is placed at the bottom of the stack where they say your not being taxed, but that would (as mentioned in another post) it pushes everything else up the Thai taxation bands (also UK  .Gov pension could well exceed the Thai tax PA and zero bands..)

( Something similar suggesting apportionment was noted in the Norwegian question PDF back about p222 ish with the emphasis on avoiding double relief, in relation to the Personal allowances of each state).

It's Sunny here in Scotland currently, but God has still got the External Aircon set about 10C, Still,will go out for a wee while.  .

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

 

Unless/until the tax return form is redesigned and reissued, there is nowhere on the form to report excluded or exempt income which I don't believe they want to see reported anyway.

But to draw a line under things it would be useful to have an additional info box to at least list them so someone can't come back with a different view later. If noted and they are curious they can ask at the time of the filing. 

8 hours ago, OJAS said:

 

It is in my case. I pay tax on my Civil Service pension through my tax code (which takes account of the £12,570 personal allowance). And, in the tax returns I still file with HMRC, I always check the 2 boxes instructing them not to make any deductions through my tax code - meaning that they then require me to pay tax on account equal to 20% of my State Pension income. Could provide evidence of this to the TRD, in the hopefully highly unlikely event of ever being challenged, in the form of paper versions of my SA100 returns plus HMRC tax demands.

 

Still a bit unsure how to express the Civil Service "only taxed in UK" DTA article 19 pension, on a Thai RD tax return. As it was mentioned that an office said there is only credit relief for tax paid.

Which to me would suggest the entire amount and it's associated tax deducted from it, not applied as credit, and should all be excluded before TH RD computation. Because I'm looking as mine being all fully taxed as well above the UK Personal Allowance. ( the other bit of my occupational pension uses the PA up, hopefully the state pension will come along in about 6 years)

It seems they may wish to include it and could push the remainder into a higher band. 

I would nly would wish Civil Service pension listed as an explanation of the remittance, and that it's been through the mill. 

I don't do returns in the UK, as they said, they can see everything on their screen.

Interesting that that option is available, applicable family members just let them fix it all with the Tax coding.

16 minutes ago, PJ71 said:

Yes, i understand that.

 

I know guys that do the '90 day rule' to avoid UK tax and every day counts, so it's 180 days here, that's confirmed, right?

UK is being present at the end of the day. 183 days is the obvious one then it goes down various levels. Tax resident in one or both of the previous two tax years, >90 days and stay in your own property for one day 6th April to 5th April could do it! 

Thailand is any second , of a day to count. "180 Days or more" in a Calendar Year.

22 minutes ago, 4myr said:

From my first visit at my local tax office in Prachuap, my local tax officer offered me foreign tax credit on paid payroll tax.

While my country's DTA does not mention payroll tax for which a tax credit is permitted. 

 

Yes I understand that my local tax officer is hardly knowledgable of the contents of DTA, But I assume she got some general instruction from higher management, that already paid tax abroad, without any distinction, can be applied as a tax credit.

That is good news perhaps, as the  majority of my pension incomes are issued in the same way as payroll.

Was there any stipulation that it must be 100% of such income types to get the credit? ( or proportion of)

Are they quite happy to see one set of payroll with the associated tax deducted in isolation? (Which would be both simple and ideal for me)

The UK does not have a specific article for pensions, (except for Government pensions). The TH-UK DTA  does have a clause at 23 (3) that says UK source tax will be allowed as a credit against Thai Tax.

On 4/22/2024 at 4:16 PM, stoner said:

 

i just returned to canada last week. may not see my wife for months. came home to look after my parents and take care of things for them at their house. 

 

seems in this thread alone 2 of us are in a situation where our wife can handle things while we are away. 

3

5 hours ago, Rich888 said:

Hi, does anyone have experience of moving older Thai children to school in the UK? My soon to be wife has two children, both currently attending a Thai government school in Bangkok. The elder is 16, and in the age group to start A levels, and the younger is 13, in the year prior to GCSEs. Both speak a good level of English. I'm wondering how they would cope in the UK system, especially the elder.

 

Another option we are considering is sending them to an international school in Bangkok the teaches the UK curriculum for 6/12 months before moving to the UK.

 

Opinions appreciated, thanks.

The son came over March 2020 (all plans initiated and tickets booked end of 2019) to School in Scotland, at the completion of Primary, however they enrolled him in Second year at Secondary, though Academical he could cope, socially maybe not best.

If on the border line opt for the lower study year if the option is available.

The sons experience has been less than ideal, as he arrived at the period of COVID lockdown(s) and was not actually at school for 5 months, cadet and other groups he had planned to join were not open till the following year.

Other wise I think it would be successful and the high school have been very helpful (no idea about the English schools).

(I've never been full time in Thailand )

Just thinking out loud.  

One other potential or theoretical, though most unlikely  problem could be filing if not physically present in Thailand 1st quarter of the next year.  If you cannot accurately list DTA aspects on online filing.

Whilst grasping the taxation items, not sure if it is possible for me to express it on an actual filing yet

The tax considerations also perhaps do not align well with Immigration stuff.  

The .Gov pension sould be remittable as soon as I get the UK end of year P60 in May showing tax paid.

[Thai return, gross, ~70k THB net or not at all]

Then there is the 60k Personal allowance, and the 150k Nil band.

[Presume that are looking for gross on the return, or should remit net 210k (under 65), if halting remittance at this level, would they then want 5% tax on the gross, i.e. of the tax already taken in home country!)

Any further amount then to be remitted could could be considered a bit later maybe Aug on depending on prediction of tax resident or not.

One year tax resident one year not could occur, but plans are not in reality dictated by tax years and Thai immigration shifting sands, they tend to be coincidental....

(Should they move to Global Tax it would make it very awkward)

@4myr's recent dialouge with the RD Tax  officers & lawyer gave interesting insight of there timenow knowledge at a Thai RD office.

So the first issue for me would be my small Gov pension, which by UK / Thai DTA is only taxed in UK. If they are not recognising exemption, the may look for that pension on a return, but it should have zero tax in Thailand.

So it is of assessable income type should be listed maybe, but should not be taxable income as far as Thai RD is concerned. The form perhaps does not lend it's self to correctly file.

I vaguely recall the UK HMRC technician I talked within respect to the .GOV pension (not state pension) back in 2018 mentioned that some times they want it listed, but they should credit / repay the tax the tax 100%. As the may want to show it on bothsides of the accounts. ( but not liking it specifically to a Thai RD event)

Custom and practice of Thai RD still needs some observation....

On 4/19/2024 at 3:04 AM, Mike Lister said:

On 4/19/2024 at 2:59 AM, Captain Monday said:

Expand  

UK State Pension is for everyone who pays into the scheme, regardless of where they worked or how they were employed.

Or perhaps not worked but had voluntary National insurance contributions, or credits from child benefit...

(Section 40 (1) of the TH RD code does not describe this benefit perhaps....in some cases. It's  from

National insurance contributions, if it were a pension from Employment, perhaps the UK DWP could not muck about with it such as freezing it if in Thailand, changinge the year it.is.paid etc etc)

[This was.lingering in editor so presume it did not post when I scribed most of it...sorry if duplicated]

12 hours ago, Misty said:

 

So where are British going instead?

No where at the moment, start of British summer time  

(Have to wait till after 7th July to avoid tax residency anyway) 

Other destinations including Thailand appealing Sept onwards perhaps.

5 hours ago, QballQ said:

Thanks for that. 

 

I had looked and thought I must be missing something. 

 

So either a 90 day and then extend in country, or a 90 day then a border run for a multi at Savanaket?

 

Last time I got a visa in the UK was at Glasgow, I think maybe 2010, with the sometimes angry lady that ran it.

I used to like the get togethers for the Thai comunity in Scotland, the Hounary Consul had a garden party at his house one year, really nice.

We used the Glasgow consulate often for TR Visas before the June 2019 evisa intro. The non-O ME was / is the ideal visa, and did all my board runs by flying back to the UK . I went direct to London RTE for the non-O MEs in 2018 and 2019.

Must of been an off day if you made Kay angry..

2 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

2 hours ago, Captain Monday said:

Expand  

UK State Pension is for everyone who pays into the scheme, regardless of where they worked or how they were employed.

Or perhaps not worked but had voluntary National insurance contributions, or credits from child benefit...

(Section 40 (1) of the TH RD code does not describe this benefit perhaps....))

1 hour ago, QballQ said:

Am I able to apply for a multiple entry non-O visa in the UK for marriage? Is there a cash-in-the-bank requirement for it? I'm below retirement age.

 

Are all UK visa applications online now?

Yes, but likely Single Entry only, relatively recent reports say that the multiple entry Non-O ME was again no longer available, box disappeared from the e-visa site again.

(Could always e-mail the RTE London in case the sands have shifted again, 100/1 against maybe)

Last reference for Financials that I can confirm was May 2023

£1000 single entry

(£10000 Multi-entry)

Show accom booking for first couple of days.

e-mail from wife confirming aware / invite visit, as Jpeg/PDF.

Copy scan / pic of wife's ID or Passport.

Scan of Marraige cert.

All applications online British Citizen/ resident.

Not been in the site for that visa type recently, but the tourist visa application has change so perhaps also the non-O.

Supporting docs format:-

Jpeg image files 

PDF files (so could be multi page)

File size less than 3MB (2.8MB to be sure)

Photo of yourself can use a phone and try and get it close to passport spec (does not like textured backgrounds, I use a off-white cotton sheet over a door)

Payment for Visa via Kasikorn by card ( sometimes hiccups like its not worked but normally is OK after going back to the initial application listing after waiting for it to process)

1 hour ago, Dogmatix said:

all assets acquired by either spouse after marriage are immediately deemed common conjugal property under the Civil & Commercial Code

Have when the wife is buying properties (the land being include) perhaps signed a form in the land office when transacting to say that it is not conjugal property? There was / is a form, no sure what its specific reference is....

The gift would be useful for everything else for receivers use and they could use their own resources for the property purchases.

Same issue when your wife is getting a mortgage perhaps I remember back late 90's an aquantaince getting a mortgage at the extreme limit for her Thai salary and had to convince the bank the transaction was using her own money, (not her UK national husband's).

Would be drifting into nominee territory other wise perhaps.

24 minutes ago, proton said:

How does this million baht a year un taxed gift to the Mrs work? and how can you prove its a gift rather than expenses for the family for a year.

Headline;-

Can gift up to THB 20 million to spouse (option for 5% tax).

She can't use it for property purchase (most likely), and it must be a true gift. Interest on the gift will be taxable. 

29 minutes ago, topt said:

Sorry but maybe the late hour but can you elucidate at all on this? I know there is a way you can forgo your PA and not pay tax on UK divis etc but I thought you still had to pay on rental income irrespective?

 

This is just DTA digest and for Thailand has been reported many times (by me) showing no relief for private or state pension so not sure of the relevance - other than if trying to claim a credit somewhere?

Sorry, the point I was trying to make was more towards the possibilities of a NT tax code so   pensions and the like are not taxed at source in the UK ( recent post context and also compared with Germany, which seems more absolute perhaps  ).

Not sure about rental Income...from memory.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/637e192f8fa8f56eabf75e5b/Double_Taxation_Treaty_Relief_Form_DT-Individual.pdf

p1

Double Taxation Treaty Relief Application for relief at source from United Kingdom (UK) Income Tax and claim to repayment of UK Income Tax For use by an individual resident of a country with which the UK has a double taxation treaty that provides for relief from UK Income Tax on pensions, purchased annuities, interest or royalties arising in the UK

p3

Part C To apply for relief at source from UK Income Tax, please complete Parts C.1, C.2, C.3 or C.4 as appropriate.

p6

Part F

I am beneficially entitled to the income from the sources included in this form or otherwise meet the conditions for relief in the double taxation treaty between the UK and my country of residence...... {comment NOT THAILAND]

p7

DT-Individual Notes (from)

2. Purpose of the form DT-Individual Form DT-Individual allows you to apply under the DT treaty between the UK and your country of residence for relief at source from UK Income Tax on pensions, purchased annuities, royalties and interest paid from sources in the UK.

p8

Part 😄 Application for relief at source from UK Income Tax As explained in these Notes, the UK’s DT treaties with other countries may provide for: • no UK tax to be withheld from payments of pensions and annuities • no UK tax to be withheld or a reduced rate of UK tax to be withheld, from payments of interest and royalties Give the details asked for in Part C to apply for relief at source from UK Income Tax on future payments of income. Relief at source may be available in cases where HMRC is able to exercise its discretion to issue a notice (under Statutory Instrument 1970 Number 488, as amended). We deal with each application on its merits. Where we cannot agree to allow relief at source or cannot arrange it, you can claim repayment of part or all of the UK tax taken off, as appropriate.

p9

Part C.2: Work pensions and purchased annuities Enter details in Part C.2 if you receive a pension or purchased annuity from the UK. Most DT treaties provide for pensions and purchased annuities from the UK to be paid to a resident of the other country without UK tax taken off. The DT Digest gives information about whether relief from UK tax is available and if there are any special rules.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5b05425fed915d1317445ed2/DT_Digest_April_2018.pdf

p34 

Column  OTHER PENSIONS / ANNUITIES

As you have said Thailand = "No relief" (Just reclaim in some circumstances)

6 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

Hahaha, okay buddy, at least that was funny!

 

Anyway, I will move to the Phillipines and don't have to file income tax but thanks for the offer. 😅

That's probably one of the few in region good options from a tax point of view, especially with the suggested by some, that some want Thailand to perhaps move to Global taxation. UK folks even get their state pensions yearly increases there, where they don't officially in Thailand.

Won't you miss the Thai food? 

56 minutes ago, AreYouGerman said:

 

UK says you can be regarded as non-resident and won't be taxed in the UK so I think this was the best example as Germany doesn't allow that and taxes you regardless if you are resident or non-resident.

Yes that is true, it is not an absolute.

Info for others;-

There is a clause that can allow it, depending on what the tax folk decide. But generally if you have been in the  UK most of your life, and have just moved to Thailand, since NT code availability may be difficult to obtain. Almost certainly UK .gov pensions no NT code.

Country specific info (search for)Form 'DT-individual' and the associated DT digest 2018