UKresonant

Just noticed, and I think it is curious and perhaps something to consider is UK state pension does not appear to fall under Section 40 1), perhaps the US is similar?

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section40

Section 41 para 2, A resident of Thailand who in the previous tax year derived assessable income under Section 40 from an employment or from business carried on abroad or from a property situated abroad shall, upon bringing such assessable income into Thailand, pay tax in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Info;-

Section 40 Assessable income is income of the following categories including any amount of tax paid by the payer of income or by any other person on behalf of a taxpayer.

(1) Income derived from employment, whether in the form of salary, wage, per diem, bonus, bounty, gratuity, pension, house rent allowance, monetary value of rent-free residence provided by an employer, payment of debt liability of an employee made by an employer, or any money, property or benefit derived from employment.⁴

⁴R.CT.No.29/2538

There is the other sources threshold at 60k THB

But the one for section 40 is 120k THB

40 minutes ago, topt said:

Not a good example as even if non resident in the UK if you are being paid a pension there, and your total income is above the tax free allowance,  you will still be taxed on that amount. I know this unfortunately for a fact........

Yes, and additionally the suggestion that not taxed as not resident, suggests other than state pension. Most UK private pensions would normally  retain tax at source in the UK even if a NoTax at source was claimed whilst being resident of Thailand. 

Can't get an NT code for State Pension, and no relief available.

(As I understand it, excepting the discretion clause).

19 minutes ago, TigerCat said:

paddypower

 

How much is a "too large a bank account"?  

 

"easy peasy. I have 5 different bank accounts. How many do you have.?"

 

I have 4. But if a person has a lot in each account, maybe there are still over a "trigger" amount.

 

I was wondering if there is a "trigger" amount, but I can't find anything online about it.   

I've tried to find trigger amounts for inbound remittance, (I remember a thread years ago, and at that time inbound of about THB 40k that could potentiallyflag something).

Could only find a threashold of 400 deposits totalling more than 2 million Baht. Every inboand must have a 'purpose' code reported, but not sure if it is individual reported or bulked up and reported to BOT.

28 minutes ago, JohnnyBD said:

Let's hope they won't be flagging & questioning every non-resident/tourist for example, who remits money to buy a condo and then later retires and becomes a resident.

The ones I worry about are potential tourists that stumble into being cumulatively more than 179 days (as there home country is 183 days perhaps, or got run over on a pedestrian crossing just before going to the airport on day 177) have done a large tax exempt transaction in home country, remitted proceeds to Thailand buy a condo, fund 800k plus living expenses, and by some Random chance get tax audited by Thai RD.

But hopefully no one will be caught out that way...

Thailand can make a fantastic first impression, which may distract from due diligence.

There is still obsolete information in the WWW

Probably not the objective of condo sales to flag tax concerns.

1 hour ago, JohnnyBD said:

So, he is saying the millions of tourists who remit monies to Thailand will have to go to RD and prove that they were not a tax resident? Where is he getting this from?

Of course the 2024 tourist will not, when under 179 days. But say that tourist has a Thai Bank account and remitted say 1M THB in 2024, and in 2025 was Tax resident spending 244 days, and did file Q1 2026 for 2025. I would anticipate that they may enquire as to why no tax filed for 2024.  Especially as they only remitted THB 400k in 2025. 

The larger remittance in 2024 would flag, but I have no idea what the flag level is now or whether it is fixed dynamic or even random.

I'm updating my 'days where' spreadsheet and will record on there days at any time as part of a day when in Thailand or non UK countries, and every day present at the end of the day for UK days. Keep boarding passes stamps etc 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

For the sake of an easy to understand example: What about the extreme case of a UK  person who earns GBP 12,749 Pounds in the UK, all of which is not taxable in the UK but they file a UK self assessment regardless. When those funds are remitted to TH, the remitters TEDA are limited to THB 60k Personal Care Allowance plus the 150k zero rated band, which (at 45) totals THB 210k or 4.6K Pounds. That means 12,749 - 4,666 Pounds are liable to Thai tax, THB 363,700, 150k @ 5% and 213,700 @ 10% . Agreed also?

Yes that is about it

UK Personal allowance is £12570 (still frozen at that  for a few years) and I could make it more extreme by for example adding Individual savings account dividends of say £1430 per annum, on which there is no tax. 

So perhaps comparing £14000 which is not Taxed in the UK,  against the under 65 allowance of as you say THB 201K £4600.  So £9400 potentially exposed to Thai Tax where it is tax free in the UK ( unless Thai RD expand on the vague statements on If Taxed in home country and if there is a DTA, don't worry 😊)

So say £24000 remitted to Thailand (and to simplify that was all income)

£10000 attracting tax at 20% in the UK (So in Theory there would be a £2000 credit relief).

In Thailand £24000 gross

£4600 not Taxed

150k @ 5% £3333  ~ £166 tax (th)

200k @ 10% £4444 ~ £444 tax (th)

250k @ 15% £5556   ~£833 tax (th)

250k@ 20% £5556   ~ £1111 tax (th)

 25% tax on £500      ~ £ 125 tax (th)

So about £2680 Thai tax bill in theory you could maybe obtain £2000 credit relief for or against tax paid in UK, but how complex or simple will that be at that level if you had to employ someone, pay for it getting stamped or such like that offset would erode rapidly, not to mention time taken.

So at the moment, under 65, I could only safely remit £4600 + £1600 taxed only in UK pension £6200 per annum simply?

So compared with the 'remit in the following year' now defunct totally simple situation, the simple solution is for me now £6200 per annum! (definitely no tax due)

To which I could add Pre-2024 savings (not easy to prove in a cash sense).

Savings and earnings whilst not Thai tax resident.

This is all from the perspective of always being UK Tax resident whilst overnight also having potential to have Thai Tax Residency over 179 days.

(There is the 50% expense thing of pension up to 100k THB potentially)

Some said their tax office said can be taxed in UK or Taxed in Thailand, along with the DTA don't worry etc but what will happen in practice Q1 2025.

For full timers Thai Tax is definitely cheaper than UK tax once your at the scale of remitting more than THB 2,100,000 😐 ,  income

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

will the Thai RD allow the UK Personal Allowance and other countries exemptions, to be part of the tax paid process.

Me thinks;  J) UK personal allowance irrelevant at the Thai end computation, except in DTA credit relief context, the total including the non taxed under the personal allowance (which is £12570).  So the credit relief is proportional to say £32570 not just to the £20000 taxed portion above the PA.

It only is legitimate in the sense that it has been through a tax process and not as tax haven non-taxed.

UK £12570 allowance irrelevant Thai PA of 60kTHB + others relavent.

(03:25hrs goodnight......źzzzz  )

3 hours ago, stat said:

Just provide your bank with the following official document that no tin is needed for Thailand (Point 5). Worked for me with several banks.

 

CRSno tin required.pdf 895.25 kB · 5 downloads

https://www.mazars.co.th/insights/doing-business-in-thailand/tax/automatic-exchange-of-information#:~:text=However%2C Thai government officials have,take place in September 2023.

Do you have an OECD document dated April 2023 or later. Has it been updated at all....?

5 hours ago, samtam said:

Can you help me out with what I'm missing.

 

I'm over 65 and I come to a figure of THB500k non taxable:

 

60k Personal Care Allowance

100k (up to) Pension Income Allowance

190k Over 65

150k Zero-rated

500k Total

 

....what's the additional 70k?

 

Thanks.

Sorry for not getting back sooner.

The other 70k was my .gov UK pension, which under the  DTA should only be taxed in UK.

5 hours ago, scottiejohn said:

Would a basic single OAP/retiree with no other income from UK using the 800,000 (already in the bank pre 2024) in the bank method be liable for tax and if not would he need to obtain a TIN and file a tax return.

If over the 179 days per Calendar year, so Tax Resident in Thailand;-

Income up to ~21000 THB/month, no tax as £60k per annum personal allowance and 190k per annum over 65 allowance.

+

Then additionally to the 21k/month;-

There is a 150k zero tax band, so that gives another 12500 THB/month

So no tax due (overseas pensions income, age over 65), call it up to 33333 THB /month  (as an easy to remember number)

If  there was more, apparently there is an expense deduction of 50% of pension up to 100k Baht (a greyer area maybe) but that gives another 8333 THB / month, with no tax payable, if a tax return was made.

There is an ongoing debate about the TIN, so I skip that for now. ( The written over 120k, is maybe not the actual custom and practice though ) https://www.rd.go.th/english/21987.html

Speculation that maybe the Tax Office managers want an expectation of a least 120k THB /per annum that is actually taxable, before is is worth issuing a TIN...)

Just keep all your paperwork filed and archived ongoing, if under 33333/THB per month, actually remitted to a Thai bank. But I  suppose they could say that you don't get the allowances unless you filed. so a simple yes / no is elusive...

7 hours ago, chang50 said:

Very few I suspect including sections of the revenue department.I went to Jomtien tax office this morning after following the simple tax guide to get a tin number as per the law and came away empty handed.They told my wife and I to come back next year with a bank statement.This will be way past the mandated 60 days deadline for bringing assessable income into Thailand and my residence cert. might be expired after 30 days.A total waste of time and money!

Verbal  rejection?

I think a rejection in a written signed and stamped form would be lovely to have. 

I think I would try and put on (old) puppy eyes and show a downloaded tax residencyself declaration form, such as the HSBC form, that asks for a TIN or a reason for not having one on the form.

'Please can you give me something I can show my bank ( as my bank has a similar form ....).'

If they give you something official looking something It gives a point of reference should any staff contradict later. 

For me the difficulty may be keeping a straight face and not skipping out the door if successful, in getting a.formal rejection. 

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

This has come up a few times in the past. If you are looking at an e-visa site then the amount would be the local equivalent of 400K, for the UK this would be £10,000.

If I remember right it was queried with London and the answer was that the £10K was for the ME visa, when they were available, and that for a SE Non O anything over £1,000 would be acceptable.

If I remember right the application has 2 financial questions, Q4 & Q10, the latter being a bank statement for £10K.

I think I answered Q4 and for Q10 uploaded a reference to Q4.

The RTE London confirmed by e-mail, £1k non O SE, £10k for non-O ME, May 2023.

Just now, El Matador said:

 

Well you are basically betting the Thai government will do something intelligent. It may happen but I never bet on politicians doing something which won't be annoying and bureaucratic. If the country was managed with a clear pro business mind, Thailand would be above China in terms of GDP per capita. So I always keep my expectations very low with them.

I think it is more likely to be reactionary, than in anticipation.

Needs the train to hit the buffers on at least one busy inbound track in to the terminous, quick investigation and a special measure may materialise, to keep customer numbers up.. 

If it happens  for this year relatively contained, if next year 1st quarter folks are getting pummeled for Tax, and it's worldwide media time?? will see how it goes. 

5 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

I assume "most probably" means this is your best guess, right? Do you know if Thai RD issued any rules on real estate sale proceeds being remitted, where they consider an equal percentage of principal and capital gains are remitted, not just the prinicipal amount. I also wonder about any proceeds from stock sales that are remitted. What if I sold 100 shares of XYZ and remitted just my original investment amount and keep the capital gains in the US? Do we get to decide what money we remit, or does RD get to decide what money we are remit? This issue should have been clarified already.

I'm just trying to be optimistic, the paperwork to prove the capital principle, would also perhaps  throw up the detail of the gain (even if zero rated at home)? Remitting $400k will surely trigger the alarm bells, whilst your fiscally domicile (Normally DTA Article 4) under Thai RD priority taxation.

Any big transaction like that (with favorable home contry treatment) safer to be resident in home country that year. 

In 2018 I made sure when making pension transactions, co-incidentally in March, I delayed coming to Thailand until after the UK tax year concluded on April 5th and cumulatively was less than 180days in the calendar Thai Tax year (Returning to UK as non-O ME.. 

The difference between a sure thing and a debatable situation.

1 hour ago, Mike Teavee said:

 

Not nitpicking, just checking to see if I missed something... Did you mean 280K under 65 (60K PA +150K nil tax band + 70K from your government pension) & so 470K over 65?

 

For me the "Tax Free" number is 235K made up of:-

    - 60,000 Personal Allowance

    - 150,000 nil tax band 

    - 25K for Health Insurance

... which is exactly the amount I'll be xferring (to myself) this year 🙂 

Is there not also a deductible of 50% of pension to a max of 100k baht ( not at PC currently  to check the detail )

11 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Yes, I agree in bold above. The year of remittance alone is not enough, the year the income was earned is the other issue. 

Perhaps the the year the income is earned whilst Thai Tax resident, is the more important.

Exchange of information with home country tax authority approximate your in year income.

What if;-any income arising that year is assessable as it is remitted to Thailand at anytime (161), until that total in year total is cumulatively reached. 

"But it can't be I spent it or at least  the remainder of it, on overseas commitments in that year" 

'Prove that then'

Just sharing a recent nightmare 

9 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Mike,

People seem to be confusing what is assessable income versus what is non-assessable income. If someone is a Thai tax resident in 2024, and they sold a $500k house (rental or primary residence) in their home country in 2024 which they owned prior to 2024, and the original cost basis was $400k, they would have a $100k capital gain. If they remitted that $400k to Thailand, and left the $100k of capital gains in their home country, that $400k would be non-assessable income. If they remitted the entire $500k, only the $100k in capital gains would be assessable income. Isn't that correct? Also, for example, if I borrowed $ against my property, stock investments, or even my CC 2.9% cash advance offer and remitted that money to Thailand, then that money is also non-assessable because it's not earned income or income from investments. It's loan proceeds. For some reason, I seem to see things as being pretty straight-forward and simple. Am I looking at this wrong?

Remitting $400k, would make it $80k gain most probably, still a big tax bill.

Could always file on the 1st April perhaps...without losing face. .

2 hours ago, Dogmatix said:

get.  That means there is no statutory low, ministerial regulations or Revenue Department regulations on how DTAs should be applied. That leaves room for a great deal of inconsistent discretion by individual RD officers and the possibility that many applications for tax credits will be rejected due to lack of acceptable documentation or due to out of synch tax years, leaving tax payers to pay the total Thai tax due and try to get a refund of the total tax paid overseas on foreign source income.

The out of sync tax year is potentially a problem for UK Tax docs.

Knowing what documents will be asked for consistantly would be more than useful. Don't want the 'need stamped by your Embassy'  when that is just not a possibility, as that service is not offered and such like.

Perhaps the only segment of income, that may not be an issue is the 'taxed only in UK' .Gov pension. I'm thinking the net value could be remitted as soon as the P60 end of year Tax Cert is issued (April/May) Only legitimate source, (and tax paid maybe) needs demonstrated hopefully. May have to be declared somehow, but not as part of the tax calculation. Therefore only declared as explanation, and does not logically need to align to Thai tax year. Pretty small component of my income though.

I'm surprised if the genuine gift from overseas  from legitimate source would be problematic. Reading the posts on the UK tax Comunity forum, it does not seem to be other than straight forward there. Unless then re-transfered to a 'relavant person' (like the sender).

Perhaps the gift in a Thai context, could not be then used to purchase property.

3 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

I don't, really.

 

The recommendation I have made in the new Simple Tax Guide is as follows:

 

COMINGLED FUNDS

 

57) Funds from various sources that are all contained in the same bank account are referred to as commingled funds. Trying to account for them separately can be difficult, unless you keep complete records that show the individual sources of those funds. Much of this comes down to individual discipline and the ability to retain and file receipts and statements. Some tax authorities have policies regarding commingled funds, policies such as LIFO, (last in, first out) which is primarily an inventory management technique but can be used with commingled fund accounts. We are not aware of the TRD policy regarding commingled funds or even if one exists. If you hold funds in this way, the two options open to you currently are, keep detailed records that describe all the feeds into a commingled account, or separate the sources into their own accounts.

When this Tax policy change was announced, for 2024 I decided that all taxed at source pensions go to one bank, and dividends go to another bank.

I've jinxed it! The two selected banks are merging later in the year!

On 4/2/2024 at 5:13 AM, Tony M said:

Mike, re your  point 1 response. I have seen this, from a Thai law firm :
 

The new amendment to the Revenue Code in Thailand, which will come into effect on January 1, 2024, requires tax residents of Thailand to declare all of their overseas income, regardless of where it is earned. However, this does not necessarily mean that foreigners will have to pay more taxes in Thailand.

 

Under double taxation treaties (DTTs), Thailand has agreements with many countries to avoid double taxation on income. This means that if a foreigner is already paying taxes on their overseas income in another country, they may be exempt from paying taxes on that income in Thailand.

 

To take advantage of a DTT, foreigners will need to declare their overseas income to the Thai Revenue Department and provide documentation to prove that they have already paid taxes on that income in the other country.

Difference between declaring and paying taxes

Declaring taxes means reporting your income to the tax authorities. Paying taxes means actually remitting money to the government.

 

Under the new amendment to the Revenue Code, all tax residents of Thailand will be required to declare their overseas income, regardless of whether or not they are exempt from paying taxes on that income. However, foreigners who are exempt from paying taxes on their overseas income will not actually have to pay any taxes to the Thai government.

 

Doesn't that mean that a tax return must be submitted anyway ?

Waiting on clarification, different tax firms are phrasing it slightly differently

Pensions only taxed in Home country, some say ignore some say declare.

For the DTA tax credit action 

Pension 1  £15k  £700 tax deducted at source in UK uses tax allowance

Pension 2  £  2k  £400 tax deducted at source in UK (Exempt under DTA)

Pension 3  £  2k   £400 tax deducted at source in UK

Pension 3  £  3K   £600 tax deducted at source in UK

One said Pension 2 is not included in declaration, another said it was???.

So Pension say 1  3 & 4 tax paid £1600 on £20k gross, remit the net of £15k gross to Thailand whilst resident and you would get £1200 credit relief. the way it was described. 

So the £13800 net remitted arrives in Thailand, the £1200 does not arrive as UK HMRC has that. 

What goes where on the filing and non-existent Tax credit form is still a Mystery!

Is the tax computation simultanious with the tax credit. or will they want us begging for Tax back from the UK.

(DTA 23 3) says UK tax paid should credit against Thai tax, but does that work or is it for Thai's working in the UK)

There was one Tax Expert on YT joking that their DTA text had to be dusted off! 

I'm not sure the Experts know for sure, in relation to DTA aspects, few if any worked examples.

Were quite clear on the most of the Tax requirements, thanks to Mike L's Guide, but the practical application of the DTA / credit relief  aspects and supporting documentation is still a bit wooly.

The written word is there, but the practical process going forward is still a bit foggy. 

Was thinking whilst browsing the English pages of the RD site, this section could be of interest to posters much earlier in the Thread with various work arounds, cash in the suitcase etc not having a plausible amount of declared income etc.

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37748.html

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html#section49

Section 49. In the case where a taxpayer deriving income does not file a tax return, or the assessment official considers that he underreports the amount of his taxable income, the assessment official with the approval of the Director-General shall have the power to determine the amount of his net income on the basis of the money or property owned or possessed by such taxpayer, his expenditure or standard of living or his behavior, or the income statistics either of the taxpayer or of other persons carrying on a similar business. The official shall make an assessment accordingly and give the taxpayer a notice of the amount of tax payable. In this respect, the provisions of Sections 19 through 26 shall apply mutatis mutandis. ( https://www.rd.go.th/english/37745.html )

2 hours ago, SingAPorn said:

At the end of the day nobody seems to have a concise and reliable answer to all the doubts of taxing the retirees in Thailand and their pensions.

 

Many retirees in Thailand could start selling their property and perhaps are looking to relocate in other countries in the region that are more foreigner and tax friendly.

Hopefully most fulltimers in Thailand (over 65) will be able to coast through on their basic 65k THB/month and some actual experience reports at the start of 2025 filing will enlighten. That would upto circa 280k exposed to tax but at the lowest two bands 5 and 10%.

Would have to hope the other countries don't issue a memo.