34 minutes ago, CrossBones said:

What happens if i...

 

a) Purchase a new car from a dealer and pay them directly from my overseas account.

 

This is not my income, its is their income.

 

b) I purchase a new condo off a developer. I pay them directly from overseas.

 

The money hasnt touched my account, in either case.

 

Any ideas?

a) a gift to your wife perhaps, is the car under 20m ? Don't know!

b) I was thinking that the scrutiny of the inbound funds was part of the transaction to purchase a foreign owned Condo. Doubtful on that one

8 hours ago, Ben Zioner said:

What wrong with the statement regarding the LTR visa? Has RD. 743 been repealed? 

No it's still in place...

https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxv3eDJmpwbaMv8y0dCuqfbA5dVeb2Fz3w?si=gBWX09_NoYHVIVUO

Just now, Mike Lister said:

Exactly, the tax system already exists, it's in service and is used by millions. The one simple rule change is the only thing that new yet many posters look at it as if an entire new expat tax system is being rolled out but will be stopped in its tracks before D-Day.......it isn't those things at all.

I quite like this short mention on youtube of the Tax change "Tax Increases You Will NOT Like in 2024" No2 on his sequence..

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxFbvSFYfMPxlsFHlEldEudYJaCJR0eqej?si=LB7TLNTBdZti1GKb

Just now, Danderman123 said:

if there is still no enforcement planned, then expats will continue to ignore it.

Probably, but that is on their own responsibility and liability.  (maybe another article for the news section later)

I hope that the ones that would not be inclined to ignore it, but at least prepare for it, will become generally aware of the possibilities. Especially potential new arrivals planning

Such as avoiding being in Thailand for more than a cumulative 179 days (for any second) in the year they are doing large remittances, perhaps. (leap year, have to be out an extra day this year). Not a new precaution to do so...

Just now, Danderman123 said:

 

Minimum wages are revised in Thailand with effect from 01 January 2024. The minimum wage in Bangkok has increased from THB353. 00 THB363. 00 per day

6days x 363 x 52weeks = 113256THB  (not them)

The medium fish probably  using online or bank trading platforms, for traceable overseas  transactions, (part of the focus of the change), low hanging fruit. (easy)

Perhaps knowing that Expats are more likely to complain they shall provide an expedited service, for such.

Just now, Danderman123 said:

This is a very widely held opinion.

 

Outside of this forum, I haven't seen many people who believe that this tax scheme will be implemented.

The tax scheme is already in place, but now income from previous year(s) must now be considered as income rather than savings, from 1st Jan 2024 going forward.

It has been mentioned that they are perhaps to issue a new tax filing form, for the small minority  that remit pre-taxed  overseas income, to allow listing of their taxes paid overseas, as a credit against the Thai Tax computation (where relevant).

Perhaps some administrative procedures need to be amended and implemented but nothing much.

I suppose there could be a legal challenge perhaps, that may form an opinion. 

Just now, Merrill said:

Thailand should be happy to have the money coming in.

Thailand is most likely very happy the money is coming in, but it is absolutely up to Thailand to decide what they are and are not happy about.

Happy.

15 minutes ago, karl2007 said:

I have a tax ID card and I pay local taxes that get deducted from my salary. I have a work permit that my company has issued for me and I have been working for the same company for over 3 years. Would this be enough

Can only say most likely, better enquire with your IO, should be fine  it's getting deposited in a Thai Bank and revenue department recognise it, what more could they ask for! With Thai based earnings, they even allowed it to be an average of 40K/month in the past. (They may ask for your current tax filing for the 2023 year?)

Just now, NoDisplayName said:

Does a marriage extension allow for combined deposit+income?

No the the combination method was only for Retirement, even that unfortunately that seems to have slid in to an area of possible discretion rather than a clearly listed option...

13 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

I was told by the Head man at my Tax office, "do you want to pay tax here" my answer "no as I pay tax in the UK" "you can pay tax here or your home country up to you"

Updated response

Hope all the Tax Offices have that clear understanding!

If Thai RD  decided to tax it all , not just the excess over what had been deducted in the UK, for remitted  non-Government / Private Pensions taxed at source , and said get it back from the UK, there appears to be no path to do that...

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/double-taxation-treaty-relief-form-dt-individual

"Part C.2: Work pensions and purchased annuities Enter details in Part C.2 if you receive a pension or purchased annuity from the UK. Most DT treaties provide for pensions and purchased annuities from the UK to be paid to a resident of the other country without UK tax taken off. The DT Digest gives information about whether relief from UK tax is available and if there are any special rules".

It could be that someone has perhaps only say only a private pension paid to Thailand from the UK, and has applied for an NT tax code to not have it Taxed in the UK and then only pays the Thai Tax.

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

Sorry, needs a comma after excluded, it's the fourth category and is anything excluded by virtue of a DTA. And then of course, anything remaining overseas that doesn't get transferred, is simply not considered. 

Just trying to catch up..

So if a Government Pension (UK), that is only taxed in the UK under an Article within the DTA, it should not be entered on a tax filing form. just don't list it anywhere. Is that the concensus ?

11 minutes ago, karl2007 said:

 

I work in Thailand so the company is based in Thailand. I get paid in THB into my Bangkok Bank account

Can you not rely on your tax record in that case, if you work and pay taxes in Thailand, for the income method?

11 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

I was told by the Head man at my Tax office, "do you want to pay tax here" my answer "no as I pay tax in the UK" "you can pay tax here or your home country up to you"

Is he right or not?

I think he is correct.

If the Tax is paid in the UK at source, taxed  in the UK, I'm glad that is accepted as there is no route to claim the relief back in the UK if Thailand did fully tax you. I Think Thai RD  could still tax you on the difference, if the Thai Tax is higher.

It could be that someone has perhaps only say only a private pension paid to Thailand from the UK, and has applied for an NT tax code to not have it Taxed in the UK and then only pays the Thai Tax.

8 hours ago, Will B Good said:

I've always understood that as I am "domiciled" in the UK.....I will always pay UK tax on UK income regardless of where in the world I live and for how many days a year I live there....is that correct?

No Yes or no answer as far as I have read. 

Inheritance tax if you don't apply not to be domiciled elsewhere, (after many many years) sounds like it would maybe be a yes

But for income yes or no, as in you cant apply for relief on UK Tax using the DT-individual Form against pensions, but maybe you could apply for a NT Tax code for a private pension, so the tax tax is not deducted at Source, if you are permanently out of the UK year after year?.

Depends 

p.s. Government pensions on the list only taxed in the UK though.

"Article 19 Governmental Services...

(2) (a) Any pension paid by the Contracting State or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to any individual in respect of services of a governmental nature rendered to that State or subdivision or local authority thereof shall be taxable only in that State."

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040
 

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/download/nation/english_e.pdf

10 hours ago, Will B Good said:

From the UK-Thailand Double Taxation Convention 1981.............

 

In the case of Thailand, United Kingdom tax payable in accordance with this Convention in respect of income from sources within the United Kingdom shall be allowed as a credit against Thai tax payable in respect of that income. The credit shall not, however, exceed that part of the Thai tax, as computed before the credit is given, which is appropriate to such item of income.

 

So if the tax we pay in the UK on our income is greater than the tax we would/might have to pay in Thailand on that income.......we pay no tax in Thailand......and if it is lower we just pay the difference?

 

Is that how it works?

Generally Yes.

But

UK will always have tax rights on a Government pension.

If you are in Thailand almost all the time year after.year, ThRD could claim priority taxing rights on some things, under article 4 of the DTA

Someone recently noted they asked their tax office, and they said ok with either way, which suggests some flexibility. 

Don't think it would work more than an initial year for dividends and interest and the like, as they are generally not taxed at source, and even dividends from ISA's (tax free in UK) would be taxed in Thailand if sent / remitted there. 

The bit you mention and DTA article 23 3) refers, to tax credit of UK tax against Thai Tax ( where applicable)

Just now, Badrabbit said:

I do not have Thai Nationality.

Is it the same for the UK state pension?

No unfortunately our DTA does not a a specific clause similar to the USA Social Sec , for the UK State pension scheme, (but further clarification on the state pension may evolve perhaps)

Especially if the majority of your pension service years were with the Fire Brigade, I'm already anticipating the various over 65 allowances shall reduce the amount of the Tesco and State pensions, that will be considered in any RD Tax calculation.

So I'm Guessing something like (monthly)

Fire Brigade = No Thai Tax

State Pension + Tesco Pension per month, take away about 32000 baht a month for allowances and the zero Tax band, then anything not cancelled out, if any, has only 5% tax (for the next 12.5k/month)

You should also be able to claim a Tax Credit for the Tax paid on the Tesco PAYE which will then equate it to the net amount sent to Thailand, as you say the Tax is deducted in the UK.

The state pension will have no Tax deducted, it will therefore not generate any Tax Credit.

Just now, Badrabbit said:

I have 3 Pensions tottaling 75,000bht per month, London Fire Brigade, Tesco UK and the UK Government State Pension.

How do I get a tax Id code from, where do I go and will it cost me money.

https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

Fire Brigade - paid directly by a Local Authority

Fire Brigade - paid by a Fire Authority (Fire Fighter's Pension Scheme)

These are classed a Government Pensions and are only taxed in the UK unless you have Thai Nationality!

8 hours ago, Danderman123 said:

It's possible that filing a tax return will be a requirement for visa renewal.

Never done that in Thailand, or a 90day report, always flew back to the UK and came back on another 90 day entry. But I suppose Air fares are proportionately higher now 

8 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

How can I get fined for something I didn't know about and not told about, plus I pay tax in my home country ffs

I'm still hoping the main theme, will be, along with CRS compliance, is that very thing, that if you have paid tax on your income somewhere,  things are generally OK.

The RD's change of rule interpretation by memo, was briefed in arricles that retirees are not the principle target of the re-interpretation of procedure.

RD were not even set up to deal with the likes of tax credits arising via DTA's as the vast majority of Thai RD's customer base will be Thai nationals. Retirees are on the periphery, giving a very small inbound positive Fx base load contribution, and a VAT spend.

UK HMRC just has a page saying to kinda write to Thai RD head office about tax credits, as they don't have have a relavant form. 

Not taxing income from previous years, for me was a haven of certainty, knowing exactly where you were, not fearing penalties and the like.  Now it seems to have gone to the other end of the scale. 

But at least by keeping remittance basis and the 180 day definition it is not a total deterance on time and inward spending in Thailand, just a substantial one.

On 1/11/2024 at 4:54 PM, Mike Lister said:

33. UNRESOLVED, CONFLICTING or UNCLEAR  ISSUES

 

 A. The exact nature of the imported income taxation rules between the Thai RD and countries with whom it has DTAs

 

B. The conflicting need to file a tax return where zero tax is due (a nil return).

The need to file a nill return is confirmed in the following link, https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

Chapter 3, Section 40, para 1

Just pondering over

https://www.rd.go.th/english/37699.html#section9

"Section 9 Unless stated otherwise, if it is necessary to convert foreign currency into Thai currency in order to comply with this Title, it shall be converted using the exchange rate which the Ministry of Finance announces from time to time. ¹

¹N.MF.Re: Rates of Exchange of Foreign Currencies Against Thai Currency under Section 9 of the Revenue Code".

;-

https://www.rd.go.th/fileadmin/user_upload/kormor/eng/NOOF_Exchange_Rate.pdf

"(2) the exchange rate based on a daily reference rate as announced daily by the Bank of Thailand for the conversion of foreign currency into Thai currency. Once any of the above exchange rate conversion is used, such rate shall continue to be used unless the Director-General of the Revenue Department grants approval to change the exchange rate conversion"

;-

https://www.bot.or.th/en/statistics/exchange-rate.html

Would it be the Transfer rate on the date of filing I wonder.  

Pending guide item 33 A :-

 https://www.rd.go.th/english/37749.html

Chapter 3, Section 40, para 1

So if the "taxed only in UK pension" which is of assessable type, the order in which it is considered may become important.  i.e.  against the highest applicable band. "most beneficial to the payer"

9 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

Regarding my 3 pensions from the UK, I pay tax on all 3 in the UK, will I be required to now pay tax again on my Pensions here, I have not paid tax here in the 16 years of being here, a simple answer would be appreciated if anyone knows the answer, I am Completely confused with this thread.

Private and non-Government  UK pensions (Random Number Example)

Gross Pension 1 £15k - UK Tax £1k (100% of net remitted to Thailand)

Gross Pension 2 £10k - UK Tax  £2k (100% of net remitted to Thailand)

Gross Pension 3 £5k   - UK Tax £1k (100% of net remitted to Thailand)

Gross Pension 1 £15k - Thai Tax £1.6k

Gross Pension 2 £10k - Thai Tax £1.8k

Gross Pension 3 £5k   - Thai Tax  £1.2k

Thai Tax £4.6k - UK Actual tax paid £4k applied as a tax credit. Circa £600 (if DTA article 23 3) applies) Thai  tax to Pay.

(Updated form from RD anticipated)

If your pensions were remitted to Thailand in past years the year after they were paid, no worries.

Should work something like that, but the practicalities, and what documents they would require is still mysterious to me

I'm not currently Tax Resident in Thailand, and will always have Ties to the UK. If your no longer Tied to the UK, and are out there all the time, maybe could get a NT tax code, and not have tax in the UK deducted?? (but not .Gov Pensions). 

Government pensions are only Taxed in the UK 
https://www.gov.uk/hmrc-internal-manuals/international-manual/intm343040

Whole variety of different factors, exchange rates timing, documentation, mood of the Tax assessor, any other income perhaps only allows a close approximation what it maybe.

I'm worried about getting caught between the two Tax Systems, as probably like your self, Tax is deducted automatically at source in the UK. 

Should I have to do a Thai Tax Return in The future, will the dream up documents I don't have, require them to be stamped by an entity that knows nothing about them before acceptance, might not be in Thailand  at time of filing. More worried about the practicalities of doing it now, rather than the structure which I know a little more of now.

On 1/17/2024 at 4:10 PM, John Scot said:

An official guidance update from the Thai revenue department dated 6 October 2023 ( Revenue Department orders No. P.161/2023) states
"assessable income due to work duties or activities conducted abroad  or because of assets located abroad" would remove any liability for income from the UK State Pension as the State Pension could in no way be described as income from an asset abroad.

Sorry but that is not sparking a eureka feeling, any more context?

There was someone posting years ago speculating that if there were an equivalent Thai State pension exempt from Thai Tax, the UK  State pension could be considered under article 24 of the UK DTA "(1) The nationals of a Contracting State shall not be subjected in the other Contracting State to any taxation or any requirement connected therewith which is other or more burdensome than the taxation and connected requirements to which nationals of that other State in the same circumstances are or may be subjected." Whilst trying to explain why pensioners were not bothered for tax on their pensions remitted.

Would be good if they had an article on state pension but it is just absent (compared with other DTAs) to clarify is or is not, Maybe the negotiators were over in Thailand partying at the time, and that bit was part of the morning agenda....