Another aspect of this, for those who are interested, is that truth in advertising and full disclosure of ingredients is not a strong point in Thai labeling and marketing of products.  While searching for the Bio Live label and ingredients, I  came across products labeled as 'neem oil' that had fine print with a.i.'s of abamectin, cypermethrin and other synthetic chemical ingredients. 

So of course the terms 'organic' and 'neem oil' commands a knee jerk attraction for the well intended organic grower (and a higher price), and the impressive immediate knock down of an advanced pest infestation will get repeat buyers and believers. 

But if you are commited to an organic program, let the buyer beware, and read the fine print, if they even bother to disclose the real chemistry in the product.  

i would launch a soil restoration effort.  Improve fertility for the time when you will need it.  Renting it out for further exploitive chemical farming and soil degradation will get you just that, degraded soil and increasingly poor plant productivity, chemical dependence, and susceptibility to drought, pests and diseases when you move in.  

Cover crop it repeatedly during rainy seasons. Photosynthate root exudates, including glomalin production from mixed species covers, minimal tillage and crop residue recyling, will build aggregate soil structure that sequesters carbon and provides fertility, productivity, nutrient cycling, plant pest and disease resistance, drought resistance, and other benefits for your future home gardening and farming. 

See discussion in this forum for information resources on the science and practices of "regenerative farming" . Kiss The Ground, Soil Food Web School, Advancing Eco Agriculture and others, books, websites and YouTube. 

14 minutes ago, kanGBK said:

Sansai  Hospital ?

No, Nakornping Hosp. only. Pfizer Fri and Sat 8am. Free to all. Efficient. Car parking is a challenge. motorbike is easier.  

Few and far between, but they do exist.  Contact attorney Aphiwat Bualoi, he has an appraiser associate, a former land dept official who provides this service.  (valuation only, no inspection/evaluation of building and property defects and repairs, thats harder to find, let the buyer beware, or do your own, or hire separate specialists, termites, electrical, roofing, etc) 

 Aphiwat Bualoi Law Office | Tel. 02-114-8004 – Notary Services |Chiang Mai Lawyer |English Speaking Lawyer (aphiwatlaw.com)  Tell him Don the tree doctor sent you. 

On 12/21/2022 at 3:37 PM, djayz said:

That explains the relatively poor performance of this product... 

Thank you. 

Attached label is for a true Azadirachtin concentrate from Thai Neem Co. But its like 1000 baht for one liter. And note the 0.1% a.i. (yes that's zero point one percent) Whereas Neemix that I use in the US is 4.5% aza 

Neemix 4.5 - Insect Growth Regulators - Certis Biologicals

and AzaSol is 6% 

AzaSol – Water Soluble Bio-Insecticide from Neem

Organic-program-compatible bio-pesticides, biological controls and botanicals, to be effective, must be used in the context of an IPM comprehensive preventive management program, including soil fertility and water management, monitoring and early intervention. And organic growers need to recognize that botanicals don't have residual effectiveness like many of the synthetic chemicals do, repeat applications are required. 

Better yet is to get on board with Soil Food Web awareness, soil fertility / biology enhancement, which is where natural resistance to pests and diseases can be achieved.  

I believe that the product pictured is not neem oil or a neem seed extract product at all, but rather a surfactant (spreader-sticker) to be used as an adjuvant with their other neem products. ("leaf catcher" may be a poor translation for a "sticker" surfactant that is standard practice for use with some pesticide products.) Some of the reviews posted confirm that this is not a bio-pesticide itself. 

I'm not sure why a 'sticker' would be needed with a true neem oil product, because usually an oil like this has sticker properties itself. Unless what I suspect is that their "neem oil" is not really an oil, but an EC (emulsifiable concentrate) or a water soluble Aza concentrate like the product called 'Soluneem' in India, 'Azasol' in the US ( popular with canna growers for budworm and mite control, no residual oil residue on consumable flowers). 

Its really difficult to sort through product descriptions and labels and active ingredients for products in Thailand. 

"Neem oil", like the term 'organic' means different things to different people and is widely misunderstood and misused. There is a wide variety of active ingredients and the percentages of those a.i.'s contained in the formulations available. 

In general, what I've seen in Thailand is primarily Azadirachtin concentrates with very low % a.i. compared with aza concentrates in the US. Note the repeat application interval of 5 days. A higher % a.i. would be more like 10 to 14 days residual effectiveness. 

I found this description of the product on Lazada:

Product details of Neem Power Bio-Life (Leaf Catcher) Size 1,000 cc.

Treehoppers like some other sucking insect pests can vector bacterial and viral disease.  Best to practice preventive management. 

Best Garden State. Their FB or LINE products list may not have it, but they have a good quality bat guano product last I checked. 

The attached photo is not the BGS product, but a large sack bat and cow manure product that I buy at an ag shop in MaeJo, Chiang Mai. It's labeled as 25% bat, 25% dairy cow, and 50% plant-based organic matter.  I use it as a general purpose organic fertilizer (trees, shrubs, lawn) along with OrganicTotto bokashi fertilizer, and vermi-compost, and I inoculate with soil micro-organisms. 

Bat Guano is a rich source of fast-acting organic Nitrogen, usually about 8 - 10% N. (Don't overdo it,)  Feather meal is good for slow-release organic N. 

Contact Best Garden State in Nakhon Pathom. They are a major supplier of organic fertilizer materials to organic farms and orchards. They may have some orchard customers who would cooperate with your study.

You may want to consider that your sugar-water baiting will disrupt much more of the ecosystem than just the factor of weaver ants farming sucking insect pests for honeydew.  There may be unintentional side effects that won't fit into your limited scope of study.  Additonal sugar food source may increase the populations of the ants, and also distract the ants from their primary food souce and biological control function.  "Weaver ants feed on insects and other invertebrates, their prey being mainly beetles, flies and hymenopterans."  The beetle-borers and fruit flies that also affect tree health and fruit production may get a free pass if the red ants are over-fed and drunk on molasses toddy. 

I am often tempted to bait the evil little kamakaze dive-bombing biters with boric acid, but I know they play an important part in biological control and the bigger picture. 

There are pests that will breach greeenhouse protection (greenhouse-thrips, spider-mites and others); biopesticide spray programs are tedious with a need for precise timing, frequent applications, and require a level of knowledge that renders them often misunderstood, misused and therefore ineffective.  Companion planting may help to some extent in some cases, but the only real plant pest and disease protection comes with cultivating natural resistance and immunity by building soil fertility, beneficial soil biology and soil structure. Chemical fertilizers and pesticides will work against this process of building natural resistance. 

Resources for education along these lines: Kiss The Ground, Dr Elaine Ingham's Soil Food Web School, Brian Kempf's Advancing Eco Agriculture, Matt Powers The Permaculture Student, and others under the categories of Soil-Food-Web and Regenerative Agriculture. 

9 hours ago, Pond Life said:

Has anyone had Bi-Focals made in Chiang Mai recently ?

If so where ?

Thanks

Vision Center – Fyndeal

I'm curious. What product are you calling 'neem oil'.  Please post or PM a photo of the container label. 

There are various product formulations that are derived from 'neem seed oil extract', and some from other parts of the neem tree.  There are two common products in the US, where much of my experience is based.  The most common is 70% neem oil (Clarified Hydrophobic Extract of Neem Oil), which has insecticide, miticide and fungicide properties, and is extremely popular and widely sold in garden centers. And then the aza products that are more potent as insect and mite repellents,  but not fungicidal. Aza products are much more expensive. Neem oil is more affordable and very useful for preventive managment or for early intervention, with an astute monitoring program that does not allow advanced infestations to occur. 

There is a lot of misunderstanding and wrong expectations around the use of neem products, as well as other organic program compatible pest and disease management substances. I hear a lot of people say they don't work, but its usually because they really don't understand and know how to use them. They think its a direct substitute for chemical insecticides.  But in fact with "organic" biopesticides, there needs to be a completely different approach and expectations than with chemical pesticides. "Prevention" and "suppression"  are the key terms, and biopesticides are only adjuvants within a comprehensive preventive management program, involving growing conditions, compatible plantings, soil and water management. Pest "eradication" is in the realm of the "exterminators", and that takes some seriously harsh chemistry, with consequences.  It's kind of like - are you going to be careless and get Covid, and then try to cure it, or are you going to learn and be smart with a preventive approach and not get it at all in the first place. 

IPM ('integrated pest management', or I like the term 'intelligent plant management') takes more study and understanding of nature and all the factors of why pests are attracted to certain plants at certain times and how to discourage and minimize damaging infestations.  Eradication is the less intelligent and less environmentally responsible, reactive approach of waiting for an active infestation and then trying to identify the pest and how to kill it. That advanced infestation stage is when neem doesn't work very well and you have to go for the big guns.  

Neem Based Insecticides.pdf

On 12/7/2022 at 6:04 PM, pitufikken said:

Google lens is your friend.

Spodoptera eridania.

  It is very fond of young plants. And is widespread in Florida as well, eating tomato leaves. Hope you can get rid of the critters.

Looks right. Larva of a moth.  Arthropod insects from the order Lepidoptera have 4 stages of complete metamorphosis (that Iearned sometime ago in ancient history and a college entomology class) Which comes first? adult, eggs, larvae (feeding stage), then pupa (cocoon stage). 

Chasing an active advanced infestation with neem substances will likely be futile, as you may have discovered. Neem products, like azadirachtin concentrate is best as a preventive. Neem chemistry for pest management is best a repellent, reproductive disruptor, and anti-feedant.  So if you learn to montitor more astutely, and see moths flying around your plants, you can spray aza and they won't be as likely to lay eggs on your plants (eggs that hatch into hungry little worms that feed, grow and defoliate), If your monitoring is a little later in the game, you look for egg cases on the underside of leaves. First and second instar caterpillars are tiny and really hard to see unless you know what you're looking for, but if you find them, that is an excellent stage to use the wood vinegar that Cooked suggested, or if you hate the smell of vinegar like I do, or are not sure of the dosage (vinegar is phytotoxic at higher concentrations), then you can consider insecticidal soap, or B.t. =Bacillus thuringiencis., a biological control.  Later instars are bigger, thougher, and harder to deal with, but your mechanical control (picking them off) is an excellent method for a few small plants like tomatoes. Trees are a different story. 

The next level, and the very best pest management approach is total IPM prevention methods, including good soil and water managment. Get on board with SFW (soil-food-web) science and practices, enhance the soil and foliar microbiome that provides natural resistance to pests and diseases. Then you don't need biopesticides at all.  

Healthy Plants Are Resistant to Insects and Disease

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNm08atn6tY

Why insects do not (and cannot) attack healthy plants | Dr. Thomas Dykstra | Regenerative Ag

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bnNOvA3diDU

How Insect Pests Identify Unhealthy Plants with Dr. Tom Dykstra

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pbFc7JR4qI

On 12/3/2022 at 9:25 PM, Elkski said:

Fun reading this  thread.  Living in dry Utah doing composting and small gardens for personal use. Started with sorted sandy well  drained soil.  In some plots finally able to do low till.  Lots of work to start with near zero organics.   Seems like composting in Thailand's climate would be so easy.   Interesting to read about to much wood left in bagged compost bags.  Seems to be the norm here.  Most comes from Idaho wood mills and I think there is such a rush to move product they don't wait long enough.  Expanded some new garden area last winter during a Jan warm spell and didn't have compost so had to buy 10 bags from local home store.  Only half a pallet left from the previous year so it had been in the bags at least 9 months and it was much better looking than usual.   These big box stores get truckloads of bagged goods in spring.  They usually block off 1/2 acre of parking lot for the compost and bark goods.  Some of the bark foods are coming from the Midwest and bringing in non local mushrooms.   Wished I was 1/10 as educated on this topic as some of you so I could show wife's mom and sister some things to do on their Si Sa Ket farm.  

Another good resourse for you right next door in Colorado, for products and information.  

BuildASoil: Organic Living Soil, Fertilizers, and Soil Amendments 

I used to buy Bentonite Clay from them for my container potting mixes to increase CEC (cation exchange capacity) in porous substrates. You may consider this for your sandy soil, (along with copious organic matter inputs and biology inoculation). Not affordable for large areas where cover cropping may be a better way, but for a container or raised bed a sack of bentonite clay goes a long  way.  

Off topic and out of country? yes, unless general gardening self-education is considered. Thats one way I keep learning, looking at popular new products and processes, what others are doing and at ingredients.  For example I've studied DTE products and the "guaranteed analysis" pages and learned what their research and regulatory compliance has produced. It helps me to tailor my own soil improvement amendments and for my customers.  The US, along with Australia and some European countries, is light-years ahead of most other countries in research and development, mainstream acceptance and public demand for modern organic farming and gardening, methods and materials for soil improvement and plant health, resulting in high nutrient density food production. 

DTE All Purpose 4-6-2:

18 hours ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I think this is it.

 

I’ve pulled the cherry tomato plants out and will plant a different crop.

 

I’m also going to trial the cherry to

 in sterilized soil/compost.

 

I’ve made a sterilizer out of two steel drums, one with a few inches of water in it  sits on a fire, the other is perforated to allow steam to pass and I’ve put a soul and compost mix I there.

Worth a try I think.

Most of the microorganisms in the soil are beneficial, and in fact work to suppress the pathogens (harmful root-rot microbes). Sterilizing the soil will kill off the beneficials and set you up for an ongoing plague of root rot, plant losses and chemcial dependency. 

During a transition period while you are building the beneficial soil biology to optimum levels, you can drench with a biological fungicide for suppression of plant pathogens. 

I think you will find that Sisaket farmers will do-what-they-do and follow local practices. Its hard to influence Thai family traditions, even when you're sure you have a better way; especially remotely. When you move from that winter freeze zone to where you can grow mangos, bananas and papayas, you can do your own thing. My Thai wife couldn't relate to my 5' x 20' biointensive beds, even though they were thriving. So I set her up with a portion of our garden space with traditional rows for her makua, prik, grapao, strawberries and other favorites. 

Home Depot, Lowes and other big box stores may call their products compost, but as you have found its usually just raw organic matter in different forms, most Americans don't know the difference.  Look for a cannabis suppliers shop, like GroGeneration and you may find the real thing. Malibu brand Bu's Blend Biodynamic Compost is pricy but its real compost. Or make your own, when you thaw out in spring. Over there you can get Down To Earth brand blended organic fertilizers like their All Purpose and BioLive and their new biological inoculant product named Soluble Root Zone (or Granular Root Zone). 

For self-education on modern Soil Food Web oriented gardening and composting, YouTube is a beautiful thing.  Check out Matt Powers -The Permaculuture Student channel, he's got it all, and is very good at compiling and communicating the info from his master teachers, Dr Elaine Ingham and John Kempf (Advancing Eco Agriculture) and others.

5 hours ago, farmerjo said:

Where the jury is out for me on compost fertilizers is the price.

They possibly suit smaller area's like raised beds if you really want to go down the organic route.

According to the website they say they have grown corn well at 1 kilo/m2(compost).

1600 kilo's/rai,53 x 30 kilo bags at 300 per bag = 16,000 baht/rai.

That is expensive food compared to using chemical fertilizer on the same area.

Absolutely true. And commercial growers, especially those not in the specialty organic foods market, are up against the wall with the costs and low returns in most cases. You are right, sack compost is only feasible for small scale home and hobby gardening or maybe deep pockets like the cannabis capitalists. 

No one in their right mind would be buying sack compost for OM building inputs, at retail prices, for one or multiple rai applications. Even with bulk truckload or farm produced compost, that's never been economical organics anyway, to use high volume compost inputs for field crop or commercial orchard OM.  Organic farming that I learned in the early 70s, as well as modern regen ag, utilizes green-manure cover cropping and crop residues for OM maintenance, and low volume compost or compost tea/extracts for Rx biology inoculations. 

6 hours ago, NaiGreg said:

https://thai-organic-compost.com/

 

Anyone familiar with this operation in Mae Taeng? It's close to home.

 

 

Yes I know the Thai-Swiss owned Natural Agriculture and their products.  They deserve some respect for some of the good things about this operation and environmental responsibility.  They started out making their compost with a primary ingredient of ground up teak logging slash,  so that means it was recycled into food production and not burned. That plus elephant dung, other manures and green and brown ingredients made a good mix.  They sell sacks of compost and potting soil and also bulk 6 and 10-wheeler loads for local delivery. 

They use their products on their own 120 acre organic farm and have achieved a 5% organic matter content in some plots. I believe that they have a well established clientele for their organic food products, including some high-end resort restaurants throughout Thailand. A model success story for organic farming. 

Recyling green waste and manures, cooking your own compost will always be more economical than buying sack products at retail prices.  Getting on board with modern regen ag principles and practices, beneficial biology inoculations, cover cropping, livestock integration, minimal tillage and other Redox-favorable practices will be even more economical and highly productive if done right. 

As for the Jack compost. Check it out before buying and see if its what you want. The last time I ordered, a year ago, the product was not fully composted and contained a large percentage of raw wood particles. Jacques was responsive to my concerns and personally delivered some replacement sacks to my home with some better product. My friend also experienced the same disappointment. Hopefully they have improved the processing. 

Compare with the compost from Mae Jo University Farm, or better yet if you can budget for the delivery charges, the 'next level' African night crawler vermicompost from Best Garden State/BiosurgeThailand in Nakhon Pathom. 

Some other good resources in Mae Jo/Sansai area, you may know: 

The ag shop on the main drag (1001) across from MJU campus, between the two pedestrian overcrossings, just south of the Mae Jo Talad. The owner is ag educated and speaks English, but she is mostly chemical grower oriented with a few organics on the shelf.  I use the bat quano, 50 kg for 350 (hard to get exact ingredients but I believe its mostly dried chicken manure with some bat guano.) And she has some goodies like biological fungicides, biological pest control and botanicals, Bt, Azadirachtin concentrate from Thai Neem Co. 

One of the best organic fertility products is hydrolysed fish fertilizer.  I used Neptunes Harvest or Fish On for years in California and this year found a good product in Sansai.  Takumi Fish Amino Fertilizer is available online or at the Maruchubussan Co Ltd facility in Sansai. maruchubussan.co.th. They also have some other interesting products, including a complete cannabis starter kit. 

The way I used the fish fertilizer is as an organic nutrition boost during the growing season.  I would dig and amend my biointensive beds with compost and a soil test based Rx or a general purpose COF.  Once the plantings are up and growing, I apply a liquid fertility mix once a month or so, with compost extract, the fish fertilizer and kelp extract, or variations. 

New book:  Regenerative Soil by Matt Powers (and see his videos on YouTube)

Regenerative Soil - 2nd Edition: The Science and Solutions - HARDCOVER + SIGNED — The Permaculture Student

Just noticed, veggies and avocados.  Small scale home-garden veggies, then maybe raised beds where you can engineer the soil physical properties and fertility, but for a larger operation its expensive to set up and import materials.  Look into my favorite method, "Grow Biointensive" outlined in John Jeavons book "How To Grow More Vegetables... " . Its an evolution from the Biodynamic French Intensive method developed by Allan Chadwick.  I have used this successfully for many years. 

For avocados, there's good reason that you don't see many plantings of avodaco orchards in Changmai. It can be done but you will have some serious work to with soil preparation, mounding of planting sites, drainage and soil borne pathogens management to prevent Phytophthora crown rot. This is a long term investment and you must do it right or you could lose it all. 

9 minutes ago, drtreelove said:

 

 

 

 

By the way, regarding the original post, if you want to hire tractor work, my friend just had an operator disc at his farm in Sansai, I can maybe get you a reference. Kickstart has offered some good experience-based info on the limitations with rototiller use, but if you want to shop for a machine, I would go first to Sriyont near Wat Ket. 

MJU soil science dept does soil tests and will give you some data, but in my opinion, the range of chemistry that they analyse is liimited and omits some important information. And they don't offer much in the way of an interpretation and Rx amendments.  I haven't used them for a few years since I learned a better approach, but I have farmer friends who have and as far as I know they are still in the dark ages of soil management with SLAN system (Sufficiency Level of Applied Nutrients, which is based on chemical company funded education and the chemical agronomy model, as opposed to modern soil fertility, organic, soil food web/regenerative agriculture). If you know people there, ask about their current approach and if they consider and test for soil biology populations and make recommendations for organic methods and materials, if you are interested in that.

MJU does have some good resources, I live near there and previously managed mango and lamyai orchards with a lot of consulting with MJU ag and pomology ajarns, as well as CMU which also has good resources.  The current MJU cannabis and vermi-compost facility has high quality bulk compost and worm castings. I also use their red-wiggler worm compost effluent as a liquid fertility input. 

What you do with your one rai depends a lot on your intentions and expectations, and your budget of course, and if you have ablility to irrigate or not. If its a hobby farm or a long term farm development project and you can put some money into soil preparation, you can get some amazing results.  If you are desparate to plant a cash crop, that is one thing, or if you can take a year to start to build the soil fertility with cover cropping and organic matter inputs then that's another appproach. 

We're still getting some rain, yesterday afernoon/evening was great, but we can't count on that continuing. If you can irrigate, you can seed a cover crop now, but if not, you would need to wait for the next monsoon season.

Are you interested in organic methods and materials, or doesn't that matter to you?  If so, there is a lot of new and emerging science, principles and practices that have evolved in the last 10 years.  Check out the discussion on regenerative agriculture in this forum, with a lot of references for reading materials and videos.