jayboy

When I think back to my own student days in the late 60s/ early 70s (occupations over files, Angry Brigade, LSD etc) Khun Aum's infractions seem minor indeed. The Thammasat authorities will be laughed at in the West if they punish this student. The point made about struggling to find the rule that fits the 'crime' is all too apposite. As for those students signing the petition - better not put that on your CV if you apply for an overseas Ph.D. place.

Good point.This whole incident reflects badly not on the student involved but on Thammasat itself which once had a decent reputation for intellectual rigour and independent thought.

What would you suggest Khuhken- this is a serious problem-- one that many of us have debated for twenty odd years in this country- how could Thailand become a fully functioning democracy- without coups, without street violence- with governments permitted to serve their terms-- without the perception of corruption (albeit unproved in most cases)--

Is it the system that needs changing- or is it the very culture from which the system derives- OR_ is it a case that the whole notion of liberal democracy as practiced (on paper) is incompatible with Thai culture?

If that is the case, what systemic changes would YOU initiate?

Yes it is a serious problem and the first step would be to take it seriously. No, I don't think that liberal democracy is incompatible with Thai culture. Local culture is not static, nor is it the same in all parts of the country.

What must change is the attitude towards the laws of the country which is not a cultural facet but why corruption is endemic in Thailand, as it is in many other developing nations. It needs to be tackled from both the top & bottom. At the top proper sharp-toothed bodies are needed to control (impossible to eliminate) corruption by politicians, bureaucrats and the police. The latter needs total reform together with the DSI.

From the bottom, the education system needs a wide cleansing with more schools to reduce classroom numbers, fair & effective exam results & no buying of places in desired schools & universities.

I could go on - land taxation, subsidies, bail system & more. It's not a short term job but an evolutionary task for an independent body.

I am geninely pleased to be able to agree with this.I would add some points

1.Justice system needs to be strengthened wirth genuine independence, free of political influence.Judges too often bear the impression of the last person who sat on them.Courts should be very clear where their role ends and role of legislators begins.

2.Education system needs to detach itself from the "wai khru" mentality as society itself becomes less deferential.Students should be encouraged to question and be suspicious of received wisdom.English and Mandarin languages to be given high priority.

3.Tax regime to be overhauled.End capital gains exemption on sales of listed equities.Bring in land tax on lines Korn suggested.

4.Local governors to be elected.One of the few Suthep suggestions I like.

There will be no coup. Suthep's history. Now prepare for the elections in february. Tell the voters what you will do when you can be the government. Fight the other side with facts. More than enough to hurt them with: amnesty bill, rice scheme disaster, the two trillion borrowing plan, corruption. Start working. Go to the red shirt provinces too and talk WITH people.

I don't think that it will make any difference (i.e., the Democrats will still have little hope of winning the next election). While you raise some valid arguments, the issues aren't the ones that will 'sell' to PTP's power base in the provinces ... they're not issues that will get them to switch party allegiance. Politics in Thailand are in a 'tribal period' just as there are in the US now and they were in the UK in Thatcher's time: the electorate is highly polarised, people's political allegiance has become part of their personal identity, and the spit in the electorate is along high-level symbolic issues and national direction rather than on specific issues. The "colour coding" of politics in Thailand, the overlap with class and cultural differences, and related regional differences all exacerbate the fundamental 'tribalism' of the situation. The only way that another party has a chance is if it comes across as being genuinely interested in the views/needs of the rural population ... Raising issues about over-spending or a problematic rice scheme will not do the trick.

Politics will always be mainly tribal in nature.It's true in every country.Electorates tend to be made up of monolithic blocks and victory usually comes from persuading people on the margins of the major blocks, ie the floating voters.Many people might consider Suthep's agenda worth supporting but in an election (or referendum) could not bring themselves to vote for it.Equally there are many who see strong advantages in the PTP but are put off for various reasons - and would never vote for it.I believe social class and wealth are the key tribal determinants.Once in a while a politician comes along who transcends these tribal divisions.Tony Blair in 1997 was a classic example - someone who persuaded millions of well educated wealthier middle class people to vote for New Labour (who would have found voting for Kinnock impossible).Suthep obviously isn't such a catalytic figure since he divides rather than brings together.Of poor Abhisit (still rather like him) the less said the better.So it seems to me there is a huge potential in Thailand for a dynamic unifying politician, ideally one who doesn't rely on dark charisma.But no sign of him or her yet.

Palakorn, with Prawit and Surin as outside bets. Pridiyathorn in as finance min problaby. But who really knows? The list is kept in a very secure place, a distant fortress guarded by Heimdall. Not even Sean Crispin or Andrew MacGregor Marshall who have vast access to this realm are aware of the full details...

Yes but Shawn Crispin has a deep inside source (as always), the details of which he is not in a position to reveal.

Yes, as a good a wishlist as Shawn has created, the fact is he's unwilling to reveal his "insider source" - as if that lends the whole thing an increased sense of credibility

Where's that vestibule of knowledge Not The Nation on this sordid affair?

I admire him and he has some excellent insights on Thai politics.The trouble is there is an awful lot of dross in there with the gems, and he is sometimes wildly wrong.Furthermore if a journalist has excellent sources and inside information, it's really not necessary for him/her to keep on referring to it.Still despite my reservations, Crispin is compulsory reading and is interesting and illuminating even when wrong.

PDRC co-leader Thaworn Senneam also said;

"He said the most important condition that would show the PDRC had achieved victory was that it now had somebody who would become the next premier. "Now we have someone [a candidate to be the next PM] who is sincere and not corrupt. [if] we cannot find someone who is [totally] innocent [in life], we can choose the most innocent."

Who will the candidate be?

The situation in Thailand is certainly dire and spiraling fast from one state of lawlessness to another by the minute.

Who will save Thailand?

Palakorn, with Prawit and Surin as outside bets. Pridiyathorn in as finance min problaby. But who really knows? The list is kept in a very secure place, a distant fortress guarded by Heimdall. Not even Sean Crispin or Andrew MacGregor Marshall who have vast access to this realm are aware of the full details...

Yes but Shawn Crispin has a deep inside source (as always), the details of which he is not in a position to reveal.

In the last election Pheua Thai got over 15 million votes whilst the Democrats received over 11 million.

And things have changed a lot in the last 2 years, not for the better as far as election results have shown for Pheua Thai.

Then there is no need for the Democrats to behave like frightened little rabbits at the prospect of an election in February.

wrong again ilike ---

 

They forced out the government

 

They appointed a people's council and rewrote the constitution

 

Then they had elections ...

 

Please feel free to oversimplify (as I certainly have) but they did what Suthep is asking for, for very much the same reasons

 

This is a particularly stupid post even by his low standards.He neglects to mention that the Icelandic precedent was in the context of a financial debacle - and that there was never the slightest suggestion that popular democracy should be suspended - so no connection whatsoever with Suthep's vision.

This guy is such a plank. :-)

My thoughts exactly..

He knows that an election will bring back the current government - but then it's what the people of Thailand want. Sooner or later they will have to accept that democracy means that who wins an election is the chosen person to lead, regardless of whether they agree or not.

All of those who scream vote buying.. don't be so naive to think that it's just one party doing it.. we got the same amount from all candidates last time

totster

The article by Chris Baker and Acharn Pasuk in the BP yesterday demolished the argument vote buying influences electoral results once and for all.From now on those who invoke vote buying as an argument against democracy in Thailand need to show evidence and demonstrate their case.Otherwise there is no need to bother with them.

How about some logic then..

If vote buying does not work why is it done

Remember Mr T his remarks those who did not vote for me won't be helped (threat to the South)

If stuff like this does not work... then why it is done.. I am sure they much rather keep they money themselves.

Read the article which answers your point.Sorry I can't link to it under forum rules but it can easily be found online.

Yea because Cambodia was the only one that agreed to send anyone.

More international face down the drain.

Actually many foreign countries have praised the government for its proportionate and patient appoach to the protests.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/09/world/asia/members-of-thai-opposition-party-quit-parliament.html?hp&_r=0

Internationally I'm afraid it's not the government losing face but the opposition (with the single exception of Korn who has been notably guarded on the ludicrous Peoples Assembly)

So if the government resigns, and is replaced by another "caretaker" government until the elections are held, who comprises that caretaker government? I just don't understand how this is supposed to work.

You are not alone.I have Thai friends who, though not marching today, are fully supportive of Khun Suthep and the Democrats' actions.Yet they are unsure and confused about the details of proposed next steps.I'm not entirely sure even the leaders have a clear road map.

In other words we are in completely uncharted territory and anyone who claims to know where Thailand is heading and how it will get there shouldn't be trusted.But these waters are also dangerous and Gramsci's famous comment is particularly pertinent.” When the old refuses to die, and the new is struggling to be born, monsters appear"

Hence Thaksin...... Well said Jayboy, I think its the most profound and though provoking comment I have ever read from you.

Thaksin, following the Gramsci line of thought, is certainly part of it...but not the end of it.Once revolutionary currents are flowing, the results are unpredictable.It may seem far fetched but it's not impossible in years to come the old elites (or those parts that have not already done so) might regret they didn't deal with Thaksin who is essentially wedded to the status quo.The next leader of the less privileged majority might be much more of a threat.

In circumstances like this one looks to men of calibre to rise to the occasion.I have been very critical of Abhisit but I recognise his quality.The latest indications (and I mean this morning) he has been backtracking on the question of participation in elections.That's a start but a long way to go still.

So if the government resigns, and is replaced by another "caretaker" government until the elections are held, who comprises that caretaker government? I just don't understand how this is supposed to work.

You are not alone.I have Thai friends who, though not marching today, are fully supportive of Khun Suthep and the Democrats' actions.Yet they are unsure and confused about the details of proposed next steps.I'm not entirely sure even the leaders have a clear road map.

In other words we are in completely uncharted territory and anyone who claims to know where Thailand is heading and how it will get there shouldn't be trusted.But these waters are also dangerous and Gramsci's famous comment is particularly pertinent.” When the old refuses to die, and the new is struggling to be born, monsters appear"

Because their leader told them to quit.

Good excuse for the coup.

The boss said they would all get their jobs back and some money.

Thinking about this makes it all the more funny.

So all the minority group has to do in Parliment to oust the majority ruling party in the UK is to simply resign?

No election needed is there for you in Thailand who wear yellow?

My oh my are those Republicans in America stupid then. They hate the President there and you say if they all simply resigned they could get a committee to run the nation and no election needed?

OH--that only works here you say.

OK--and the UN will not like it?

But you do not care as long as you are not hammered with trade sanctions like Myanmar was.

If that happens, you go to plan B and have an election and lose again.

If the Baht goes to 45, better for exports is it.

Besides, it is not as if you caould ever win an election with the current hate for your group is it.

Good plan BUT

What if the other side fights back or what if the PM refuses to leave office and simply calls for another election?

What?

You use the army again?

How old fashion of you.

Myanmar reborn to the east.

What utter and complete nonsense written by a poster who has no understanding whatsoever of Thai politics or indeed of the power of the Thaksin fascist dictatorship.

I thought much of his post very much to the point.But let's see how events pan out.

That is your opinion, but the reason he is revered by most of the world has nothing to do with his revolutionary activities. It is for the compassion and forgiveness he showed as a leader later in life.

I would have thought he is respected for both - his part in overthrowing the apartheid regime and for his magnanimity thereafter.

I am not sure that it is hypocrisy. I am guessing that a lot of people were critical of some of the things that Mandela did as young man when he advocated violent revolution, but became very respectful of him after he was released from prison and went on to forgive his enemies, bring his whole country together and keep the peace. He was not born a great man. He became one.

But surely he had the right to advocate and participate in the armed struggle given the apartheid system in South Africaa. and the denial of democracy to the majority.Bill Clinton made the same point in his tribute to Mandela today, namely that the American colonials participated in the armed struggle against the empire of King George.I don't think Mandela's revolutionary past can be held against him at all.

I have often thought that those years in prison and the isolation, made him appreciate many of the things that the rest of us overlook. He seemed to appreciate other people -- in the way that a person who had experienced isolation would simply enjoy seeing and talking to another person, even if it was somebody that most of us would not. I think the boredom gave him a special appreciation and happiness about some of the more mundane things that go with fame.

In the stream of life, some rocks get worn down and some get polished. He definitely got polished and he shone brightly with time.

Very nicely put.The quality I most honour was his magnanimity and his generous spiritedness - something he shared with Winston Churchill.He was able to relate as a human even to those who kept him captive.It is no coincidence that his white Afrikaaner prison guards revered him.

He had a lot that both sides in Thailand could learn from - but that discussion is for another day.

 

This proofs again that Yingluck is a not capable of managing any kind of situation (unless the whole thing is a set up and she knows her son will leave the school soon).

 

 

 

 

 

Ah so Yingluck is responsible. Thank you for pointing this out as I don't think this would have occurred to most people.

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Will Thaksin surrender at the same time. Accept his responsibility for rebellion and treason for 2010? because if Suthep is really guilty of these charges, then what charges could be layed on Thaksin for 2010?

But the circumstances were nowhere near the same were they?

In 2010 the Democrats had wormed their way into power and were only representing the elite in Bangkok. They had not been elected into power and certainly were not expressing or representing the interests of Thai citizens in the north and north-east and they were continually procrastinating regarding demands to hold a proper general election. Their demands for a general election culminated in violence.

This current round of violence was an attempt to overthrow a properly elected government and as such was treason.

Oh boy, another poster who should read up on 2010 again.

The Democrat party formed a government December 2008 when a majority of MP voted for Abhisit as PM. They had a small majority of MPs. Now don't try to tell me all those 'only' represented 'Bangkok elite'.

As for 'procrastinating regarding demands to hold new general elections', there was no legal obligation to hold new general elections before the expiration of the four year term since the last general election. Abhisit offered to dissolve the House for elections late 2010, but after initial acceptance a phonecall from afar let the UDD reject the offer. The UDD use of violence led to more violence.

This current round of protests started when the government tried to pass a 'blanket amnesty bill' and even had the gall to say "please wait, there's more procedure to follow'. When if all had stayed home guilty the Senate would have justly thought "no protests, no comments? we vote OK". Most protesters just want the government to step down after all undemocratic actions to just take care of Thaksin and call a new election.

BTW for your information there's also a bit of Thailand South of Bangkok.

Actually according to Suthep, who is after all the leader of the current protest, the last thing the protestors want is a new election. They first want to appoint a people's council, which of course has no mandate whatsoever and which is highly unconstitutional.

I wonder how dear Suthep is going to make sure PT cannot win a general election anymore, maybe he will transfer Issaan back to Laos and Cambodia, ask the North to start their long lost Lanna Kingdom and then call elections in what's left of Thailand. I guess then, and only then he has a good chance of seeing the democrats win these !

It seems so much hard work when the real solution is surely to reform the Democrat Party, detoxify its tainted leadership (Abhisut surely has to go) and (most importantly) provide a programme that the Thai people can subscribe to at the next general election.The Democrat Party has, unlike the PTP, a long and proud past when it was not hitched to the military or feudal interests.If the reforms are made Thaksinism can be defeated.But the behaviour of the party in the last couple of weeks has been stomach turning - so no early improvement expected.

On another point, the English and grammar mistakes in Kavi's op-ed piece or any other English language newspaper in Thailand article don't bother me nor make the article any less interesting for me. And whether I agree with it or not ... it's an opinion and not "news". The opposite opinions are out there too.

Up to a point I agree.But Kavi's article is so riddled with basic errors (eg chronograph for choreograph) to the extent that it becomes distracting.The Nation is an English language newspaper and Kavi is one of its key columnists:thus there is a responsibility to get this right and it can be easily done.

Jayboy

"Actually the past of Suthep has not been much discussed on the forum.Perhaps his present is a distraction.In any event it is always easier to return to the subject of Thaksin - as you have done."

There are considerable threads and discussions on TV referencing Suthep and his past over the last few weeks. All easily found. But of course, whether that constitutes much or not is subjective.

For the second time. I was responding to a poster who wanted to posit that Thaksin was really innocent and would be the best leader for Thailand. Interesting how you seem to think the post supporting Thaksin is on topic whilst one offering the opposite view is off topic. Easier to dismiss facts as off topic isn't it.

As already pointed out this thread isn't about Thaksin.As already pointed out his crimes and failings are well known.Whatever you say there hasn't been that much focus on Suthep's background.In contrast there are some who will find it appropriate to drag in Thaksin even if the subject is how to deal with soi dogs.None of this really matters even if slightly comic.But it does highlight a certain myopic mindset that attributes all Thailand's problems to a single man (some of them obviously are). As to Suthep (and as at 18.00 Sunday the saga has yet to be played out) it does seem rather odd that the "educate" folks on the streets accept as their champion someone corrupt, so dishonest, so caught up in dirty politics and by some accounts so stained with blood.

Indeed. It does seem some posters are fixated with defending Thaksin and attacking his opponents whatever the topic or however the discussion progresses and meanders. In the same way it is indeed odd that so many people from all walks of life, strata of society and different backgrounds came out to protest against a bill that would have allowed so many to whitewash their crimes. I'm sure many protesters don't have any illusions about Suthep. But maybe they, rightly or wrongly consider Suthep the lesser of two evils? Sad the choice isn't about the higher of two excellent non corrupt brilliant leaders, but that's politics for you.

Could you just remind us, exactly what crimes has Suthep been convicted of ?

You need to focus on reality.The foolish and ill advised amnesty (which most Thais disliked) was withdrawn.The current protests are not primarily about that.Even an early dissolution doesn't satisfy Suthep.He is against democracy itself because he knows his side could have huge difficulties in winning an election.The mobs on the streets do not represent all walks of life.Key groups are the Sino Thai middle class, Southerners and vocational students.I note "what crimes has he been convicted of?" you are still trying to defend Suthep.Good luck with that.

Jayboy

"Actually the past of Suthep has not been much discussed on the forum.Perhaps his present is a distraction.In any event it is always easier to return to the subject of Thaksin - as you have done."

There are considerable threads and discussions on TV referencing Suthep and his past over the last few weeks. All easily found. But of course, whether that constitutes much or not is subjective.

For the second time. I was responding to a poster who wanted to posit that Thaksin was really innocent and would be the best leader for Thailand. Interesting how you seem to think the post supporting Thaksin is on topic whilst one offering the opposite view is off topic. Easier to dismiss facts as off topic isn't it.

As already pointed out this thread isn't about Thaksin.As already pointed out his crimes and failings are well known.Whatever you say there hasn't been that much focus on Suthep's background.In contrast there are some who will find it appropriate to drag in Thaksin even if the subject is how to deal with soi dogs.None of this really matters even if slightly comic.But it does highlight a certain myopic mindset that attributes all Thailand's problems to a single man (some of them obviously are). As to Suthep (and as at 18.00 Sunday the saga has yet to be played out) it does seem rather odd that the "educate" folks on the streets accept as their champion someone corrupt, so dishonest, so caught up in dirty politics and by some accounts so stained with blood.

Chainarong

The crime which Thaksin has been convicted for in Thailand , is not recognised in Westminster England , it is unique to Thailand .

In other countries a woman can legitimately purchase land as Mrs Shinawatra did , without her husband having to sign a consent .

Only the fact that Thaksin was Prime Minister or member of the government made it a crime in Thailand, but not anywhere else .

This anti Thaksin campaign at the behest of Elite , Middle Class , Democrats is effectively " Cutting Off The Nose To Spite The Face ".

For all his faults , and who in Thailand is without fault in similar measure , Thaksin still remains the strongest and best man to lead Thailand .

The Coup was a terrible error of judgement , that Thailand may have to suffer the consequences of for years to come .

You are joking? Research the circumstances regarding how the land was seized and purchased. Check up on laws changed to facilitate tax avoidance. Check out the other more serious outstanding criminal charges the fugitive is anxious not to face.

The elite HiSo's clearly don't want a change from their years of raking in massive wealth and fortunes at the expense of the poor. The want to retain the system that allows them to acquire huge wealth and also act above the law in any capacity including murder as we've seen repeatedly.

All Thaksin wants is to replace these families with his own. Period. Through a few crumbs to the poor while his family enrich themselves, put themselves above the law and implement a police state dynasty. Strong - sure if you equate no morals, ethics or conscious to strength - like Mugabe, Hun Set, Mao, Castro etc. Best man - not in a million years.

Give us a break.Thaksin's errors are well documented but the thread is about Suthep's panel.Suthep's murky and corrupt past is well set out in David Eimer's piece in the South China Morning Post.

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1369801/thai-protest-leader-suthep-son-elite-axe-grind

Try reading the post I was responding to before you type, See how many times the poster used the word Thaksin,

You've posted many comments on many threads about Suthep. We get the message.

Interesting that you use the expression "Thaksin's errors" rather than words like actions, crimes etc. Do you think these are really just simple errors? One could even say "honest mistakes"

Actually the past of Suthep has not been much discussed on the forum.Perhaps his present is a distraction.In any event it is always easier to return to the subject of Thaksin - as you have done.

Chainarong

The crime which Thaksin has been convicted for in Thailand , is not recognised in Westminster England , it is unique to Thailand .

In other countries a woman can legitimately purchase land as Mrs Shinawatra did , without her husband having to sign a consent .

Only the fact that Thaksin was Prime Minister or member of the government made it a crime in Thailand, but not anywhere else .

This anti Thaksin campaign at the behest of Elite , Middle Class , Democrats is effectively " Cutting Off The Nose To Spite The Face ".

For all his faults , and who in Thailand is without fault in similar measure , Thaksin still remains the strongest and best man to lead Thailand .

The Coup was a terrible error of judgement , that Thailand may have to suffer the consequences of for years to come .

You are joking? Research the circumstances regarding how the land was seized and purchased. Check up on laws changed to facilitate tax avoidance. Check out the other more serious outstanding criminal charges the fugitive is anxious not to face.

The elite HiSo's clearly don't want a change from their years of raking in massive wealth and fortunes at the expense of the poor. The want to retain the system that allows them to acquire huge wealth and also act above the law in any capacity including murder as we've seen repeatedly.

All Thaksin wants is to replace these families with his own. Period. Through a few crumbs to the poor while his family enrich themselves, put themselves above the law and implement a police state dynasty. Strong - sure if you equate no morals, ethics or conscious to strength - like Mugabe, Hun Set, Mao, Castro etc. Best man - not in a million years.

Give us a break.Thaksin's errors are well documented but the thread is about Suthep's panel.Suthep's murky and corrupt past is well set out in David Eimer's piece in the South China Morning Post.

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1369801/thai-protest-leader-suthep-son-elite-axe-grind