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jayboy
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Posts posted by jayboy
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Morality is a different question altogether.But on legitimacy the position of the international community towards Thailand is very clear.
Did any country refuse to recognise the Democrat government as the legitimate government of Thailand? What is your point?
No but you have missed the point.Given the excellent democratic credentials of the current government there would be strongly adverse international reaction if it was removed through a coup or judicial activism.But more troubling for the unelected elites would be the angry internal reaction and unpredictable outcome - hence in my personal view the probability is the government will see out its term.
If at the next general election the government is so unpopular as you suggest no doubt the Thai people will be seeking an alternative.
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Your naivety borders idiocy if you think that international recognition and support in any way relates to the legitimacy or morality of a government.There are many facets of this struggle for the heart and soul of Thailand, this is one of them. Anonymity is desirable when dealing with a political machine like the criminal Thaksin's, PTP and redshirt alliance. After all it has displayed it willingness to crush any dissidence through litigation, miscommunication, censorship, personal threats, violent measure and even killings.
The use of the mask is an advantage in this political climate, it also resonates with the international community. This government is very sensitive to international opinion, after all its depending on this community to fund the growing Thai debt burden. The mask is generally recognise as a symbol of the democratic struggle against a draconian government, as such it identifies the protestors likewise. It gives them international legitimacy and will be a beacon for international support. As we have seen its already having and effect on the criminal Thaksin's political alliance as they feel the need to stymie this movement with threats of questionably legal or moral action.
Overall I feel its a very clever marketing ploy and a relatively safe option.
You are profoundly mistaken about many points, but I will emphasize just one - international legitimacy.The current government enjoys unanimous support overseas:there is not one government that questions it not least because it has an unquestionable democratic mandate.Any government which followed other than through an election victory (ie through a military coup or more likely a trumped up judicial intervention) would become an outcast in the world community.Life would of course go on but the consequences would be appalling.
Morality is a different question altogether.But on legitimacy the position of the international community towards Thailand is very clear.
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Poor logic.A better example is the use of the swastika since this often crops up in Thailand.It cannot be detached from its Nazi link any more than Guy Fawkes can be detached from attempted regicide.It is true however that many Thais have no understanding of the historical connotations but there is a world of difference between ditzy Chiangmai teenagers(a recent swastika use example) and the so called "educate" people with their Guy Fawkes masks.However they should be allowed to demonstrate and wear what masks they like - they can't hide their malice and their deep stupidity.All this historical arguments are pointless, the people behind this campaign make it clear what is the source of the image and what is the meaning they intend to convey from it.
What some people here are doing is akin to argue with a Christian that by wearing a crucifix they are condoning the brutality of the ancient Romans. In other words cherry picking a historical moment related to a particular symbol to ascribe to it connotations not intended by the person using that symbol.
Another more recent example would be to assume that every person you see wearing a Che T-Shirt is a communist revolutionary. Symbols can transcend their origins or acquire new meanings in the course of history, so instead of arguing over irrelevant historical details try to see what this people message is.
Is it a "Guy Fawkes" mask or a "V for Vendetta" mask? Most people (not just Thais) would relate the mask to the movie, and not know anything about Guy Fawkes.
That's a rather odd thing to say since Guy Fawkes and the gunpowder plot is referenced throughout the movie.
In any case most educated people both inside and outside Thailand would understand the Guy Fawkes connection.As previously noted however the fatuous "educate" element who look down on most of their fellow citizens probably haven't the faintest idea.
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All this historical arguments are pointless, the people behind this campaign make it clear what is the source of the image and what is the meaning they intend to convey from it.
What some people here are doing is akin to argue with a Christian that by wearing a crucifix they are condoning the brutality of the ancient Romans. In other words cherry picking a historical moment related to a particular symbol to ascribe to it connotations not intended by the person using that symbol.
Another more recent example would be to assume that every person you see wearing a Che T-Shirt is a communist revolutionary. Symbols can transcend their origins or acquire new meanings in the course of history, so instead of arguing over irrelevant historical details try to see what this people message is.
Poor logic.A better example is the use of the swastika since this often crops up in Thailand.It cannot be detached from its Nazi link any more than Guy Fawkes can be detached from attempted regicide.It is true however that many Thais have no understanding of the historical connotations but there is a world of difference between ditzy Chiangmai teenagers(a recent swastika use example) and the so called "educate" people with their Guy Fawkes masks.However they should be allowed to demonstrate and wear what masks they like - they can't hide their malice and their deep stupidity.
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There are many facets of this struggle for the heart and soul of Thailand, this is one of them. Anonymity is desirable when dealing with a political machine like the criminal Thaksin's, PTP and redshirt alliance. After all it has displayed it willingness to crush any dissidence through litigation, miscommunication, censorship, personal threats, violent measure and even killings.
The use of the mask is an advantage in this political climate, it also resonates with the international community. This government is very sensitive to international opinion, after all its depending on this community to fund the growing Thai debt burden. The mask is generally recognise as a symbol of the democratic struggle against a draconian government, as such it identifies the protestors likewise. It gives them international legitimacy and will be a beacon for international support. As we have seen its already having and effect on the criminal Thaksin's political alliance as they feel the need to stymie this movement with threats of questionably legal or moral action.
Overall I feel its a very clever marketing ploy and a relatively safe option.
You are profoundly mistaken about many points, but I will emphasize just one - international legitimacy.The current government enjoys unanimous support overseas:there is not one government that questions it not least because it has an unquestionable democratic mandate.Any government which followed other than through an election victory (ie through a military coup or more likely a trumped up judicial intervention) would become an outcast in the world community.Life would of course go on but the consequences would be appalling.
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Strangely twisted article with Kavi displaying his usual inability to think clearly.
Why?
Because Myanmar has been out in the cold for decades.Thailand never has been
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No, I mean the original Thai constitution, which though I am assured closely modelled the English system, managed to avoid having a senate made up of inter-bred hi-so snobs decided on nothing more than primogeniture descendency.
Skating a bit close to the ice with that last comment, aren't we?
Always strikes me as odd that many of the reactionary types on this forum turn
out to be very chippy on matters of class, odd because they give
uncritical support to Thailand's entrenched upper class.Perhaps they
should join their comrades on the red shirt side, paticularly if they
have a big problem with "primogeniture descendency".
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You assume I don't like it? Wrong , I don't like your condescending attitude that Thais should know of some obscure 400 year-old piece of English history before they use a protest concept from a recent movie.
Guy Fawkes is hardly obscure.
However even if the cultural reference is only to the V for Vendetta movie (which I have seen) it still betrays asinine stupidity and lack of understanding - given the subject matter and context of the movie - on the part of those extreme right wing reactionaries who are so quick to condemn "uneducate" people.Ignorant tossers.
I have to agree that those who condemn people for their lack of education are "tossers" - that was the point that I was making.
I don't condemn people for their lack of education, far from it - especially since intelligence isn't limited to the well educated.
I do condemn those who preen endlessly about their intelligence and moral superiority (like the fascists we are discussing), when the truth is they are both stupid and self centred.
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You assume I don't like it? Wrong , I don't like your condescending attitude that Thais should know of some obscure 400 year-old piece of English history before they use a protest concept from a recent movie.
Guy Fawkes is hardly obscure.
However even if the cultural reference is only to the V for Vendetta movie (which I have seen) it still betrays asinine stupidity and lack of understanding - given the subject matter and context of the movie - on the part of those extreme right wing reactionaries who are so quick to condemn "uneducate" people.Ignorant tossers.
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Why would they have any interest in the ancient history of a distant, small country which has very little influence on Thailand?
Possibly because the parliamentary system which is a central element of the Thai constitution is modelled on the example of that distant island, the parliament that Guy Fawkes attempted to blow up.
Strangely enough, at the time the Thai constitution was written there were quite a few other parliamentary democracies around, and while there a few similarities to the English system of 1600, there are just as many dissimilarities. Should "educated" thais be required to learn the history of all, starting with the ancient Greeks? Or is your criticism due to your anglocentric view of the world?
BTW Thai education policy makers might be reluctant to include incidents of attempted regicide.
I'm afraid whether you like it or not - and you clearly don't - all parliamentary systems including that of Thailand are modelled to a greater or lesser extent on the British one.That's why the British parliament is known as the Mother of Parliaments.It doesn't mean that each country doesn't adopt characteristics from other models or tailor to take account of local considerations - but the basic model is British.
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Why would they have any interest in the ancient history of a distant, small country which has very little influence on Thailand?
Possibly because the parliamentary system which is a central element of the Thai constitution is modelled on the example of that distant island, the parliament that Guy Fawkes attempted to blow up.
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Interesting choice of Guy Fawkes by these proto fascists.Obviously they have not bothered to study history, or they would have seen that Guy Fawkes' historic objective was not really consistent with their professed aims.Not a very impressive initiative from these "educate" people, precisely the ones that criticise the PM for her poor English when they are unable to string an accurate sentence together.
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A rather informative and relevant post has had a large portion of its content removed due to fair use. If the poster has a link to the article, I am sure there are a lot of people who would benefit from reading it.
Sorry for that.
I would think that the following is the article Robby Nz was refering to.
Article includes the British Nobel Prize winner Sir Peter Medawar as a Muslim.He wasn't - had a British mother and a Lebanese Christian father
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Anyone like me depressed and bored by the bar talk comments on this thread? Feel like a dose of intelligence and sanity ? Then read Simon Jenkins's views:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/23/woolwich-attack-echo-chamber-mass-hysteria
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Agreeing a blanket amnesty is the only chance Thaksin has of sneaking back and our old Stalinist friend Thida will know the party drill on delivering U-turns, but it will stick in Thaksin's throat and just as he balked from personally applying for amnesty when it was on the table he may do so again. Those dreaming of a redshirt split and a new chance to wave the tattered flag of 'its not about Thaksin' will make lame attempts to wriggle on this one.
If you wish to be taken seriously you will will need to present your case more convincingly.I take it your general line is that the current Thai political conflict is in essence "all about Thaksin" and that the underlying political and social divisions are of minor or secondary significance.
From any perspective with integrity the proposition stated above seems demonstrably false.Still it's an open forum and if you can make a case, let's hear it.So far you have failed and your arguments have generally been feeble, irritatingly accompanied by references to your half understood grasp of Marxist ideology.
Politicians and political parties regularly change positions.As John Maynard Keynes famously observed, "when the facts change, I change my mind, what do you do,sir?".
Still, giving thanks for small mercies, at least your post is free of yet another asinine reference to Arisman.
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Yep, the lady is an independent thinker. To bad she's too intelligent to be in the government.Not red enough? Someone is trying to bury her under the bus.
Not red enough? I kinda think it gives her a bit more color.
I'd rather have dinner with her than another famous Thai woman.
She is a fraud and a charlatan and though much admired by ignorant foreigners should have been removed long ago.
After graduating medical college she sat for the USA exams, then gained a residency training position at walter reade hospital, USA. Did a lot of forensic work often contradicting police (proving them wrong) Has been sued by police. OK, she may have been involved in the bomb detectors but it does not nullify the positive contributions.
By the way, when did you graduate medical college and where di you do your residency training?
It is a matter of little consequence where she trained.Why you think my own educational background is relevant I have no idea.
Her record of incompetence is well documented.Obviously in her career there were some achievements (how could there not be?) but they are overwhelmed by the negatives.
I do understand that many foreigners think highly of her
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Yep, the lady is an independent thinker. To bad she's too intelligent to be in the government.Not red enough? Someone is trying to bury her under the bus.
Not red enough? I kinda think it gives her a bit more color.
I'd rather have dinner with her than another famous Thai woman.
She is a fraud and a charlatan and though much admired by ignorant foreigners should have been removed long ago.
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Can't for the life of me see the point of such an ID card.If one was posted to me I would certainly keep it but it doesn't actually provide me with other than what I already have.
Furthermore I don't think one can just dismiss the evidence that it is intended for a completely different purpose as a "red herring".
Some may have a different approach to life, but I simply couldn't be bothered explaining to bemused officials why I hold a strange card.
My bank is quite happy with a driving license (lifetime in my case) for security on the rare occasions I withdraw cash.As Arkady suggests it also serves for other ID purposes - checking in at hotels.
My credit cards here are activated without ID at all, just the usual security questions - DOB, Mum's maiden name etc etc.
In short not in the slightest bit interested.
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Talking of detailed scrutiny, that is a problem you have with the Arisman video. Pity Arisman wasn't addressing the crowd this time round with a joyful rendition of bring your bottles to fill up with petrol to burn Bangkok. I am sure the audience would have politely clapped him just as they did last time.
.3 years on and most of the above are still .brain-washed.
Try checking out the international media for what actually happened in 2010 not just the yellow-hued elitist Thai media.
Maybe you can point us to the "international media" articles that explain what actually happened. It would be useful if they were actually here so they know what happened too.
All the international news agencies were here in 2010 including the BBC and CNN.However they were in the pay of Thaksin so cannot be relied upon.Also it is an established fact that no foreigner can ever understand Thailand, because Thailand is so special and unique.Slightly less facetiously the Thai establishment cannot handle detailed scrutiny.
Doesn't really make any sense.You invest a great deal of what passes for your "argument" in what one hot head said - and in any event he has come under a great deal of scrutiny.I haven't noticed anyone defend him, and isn't he still behind bars?
As to the more general point the Thai elite detests independent detailed scrutiny, especially from outside as for example the BBC's excellent Jonathan Head found out.
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.3 years on and most of the above are still .brain-washed.
Try checking out the international media for what actually happened in 2010 not just the yellow-hued elitist Thai media.
Maybe you can point us to the "international media" articles that explain what actually happened. It would be useful if they were actually here so they know what happened too.
All the international news agencies were here in 2010 including the BBC and CNN.However they were in the pay of Thaksin so cannot be relied upon.Also it is an established fact that no foreigner can ever understand Thailand, because Thailand is so special and unique.Slightly less facetiously the Thai establishment cannot handle detailed scrutiny.
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Eton. Wow! totally equipped for life
Never quite understand this kind of comment on Eton.The problem (if it can be thus described) is that Eton equips its pupils to be too successful for life - thus showing up the inadequacies of the state system.
Eton has a strong claim to be the best school in the world.Naturally the army of inadequates bleating about frozen pensions attribute this all to inherited wealth and the old boy network.Perhaps this was formerly partly true but still a school which produces the current Prime Minister,the heir to the throne and the Archbishop of Canterbury is doing something right.
Take a field which is dependent purely on talent and has nothing to do with privilege or influence - acting.Eton has produced Dominic West, Damien Lewis, Hugh Laurie, Tom Hiddleston, Eddie Redmayne.
Instead of rubbishing Eton, energy would be better expended improving the state system, getting rid of substandard teachers and giving our children the same chances as boys from Eton.
You pays your money and takes your choices. Unfortunately many people simply cannot afford to send their children to schools such as Eton. And the establishment want to keep it that way. Those who bleat about the class system in Thailand simply have no idea of what the reality in the UK is. Sure they got rid of grammar schools and introduced comprehensive schools (or whatever they call them these days).....but they kept the same the same system in place essentially.....the ruling class go to one set of schools and the great unwashed go to the others.
An education provided by Eton (and similar top schools) is certainly out of reach for most of us.It is also - given fees exceeding Pns 30,000 pa - out of reach for traditional upper middle class professions that once may have aspired to it.I do not agree that the establishment wants to keep it that way.Increasingly schools like Eton are looking to broaden their intake to include many unprivileged boys, ironically in line with the wishes of their founders many centuries ago.As Simple1 correctly points out there are a large number of scholarships which are means tested - ie reserved for boys whose families cannot afford the fees.
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Eton. Wow! totally equipped for life
Never quite understand this kind of comment on Eton.The problem (if it can be thus described) is that Eton equips its pupils to be too successful for life - thus showing up the inadequacies of the state system.
Eton has a strong claim to be the best school in the world.Naturally the army of inadequates bleating about frozen pensions attribute this all to inherited wealth and the old boy network.Perhaps this was formerly partly true but still a school which produces the current Prime Minister,the heir to the throne and the Archbishop of Canterbury is doing something right.
Take a field which is dependent purely on talent and has nothing to do with privilege or influence - acting.Eton has produced Dominic West, Damien Lewis, Hugh Laurie, Tom Hiddleston, Eddie Redmayne.
Instead of rubbishing Eton, energy would be better expended improving the state system, getting rid of substandard teachers and giving our children the same chances as boys from Eton.
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What is interesting is the number of protest group aligning themselves against the corrupt PTP government. This groundswell of disillusioned disenfranchised people may very well become a united grass roots movement against the increasingly unpopular Thaksin government. The threatened dissolution of this government may be a reality sooner than we all think.
But how will this threatened dissolution come to pass? Abhisit had said he wants to see this government run its full term.Then the Thai people will have the chance to throw them out.Do you trust the people?
The White Masks That Give A New Face To Thai Protest: Special Report
in Thailand News
Posted
Of course there would be no issue if the Democrats won an election.Nor would there be an issue if MPs defected.Foreign countries have no quarrel with Thailand and look if at all possible to get along.However a coup whether from the military or the judiciary would not be welcome.What would they do about it? Probably not a great deal.
The internal reaction would be the only significant one.