jayboy

Many years ago an experienced foreign businessman advised me that one should never use a Thailand based personal investment advisor.My subsequent experience supports this view.The vast majority are opportunist and inexperienced and without suitable qualifications or background, primarily motivated by commissions.They are generally an unappealing bunch, the sort of shyster who used to sell time share opportunities.There are perhaps 2-3 firms/individuals based in Bangkok rather more respectable (typically Chamber of Commerce members and financially literate). Personally I would not touch them either: their superficial plausibility, knowledge of the jargon and minor public school (or Oirish) affability in some ways make them more dangerous to the naive investor.

Best to stick to offshore advisors.There's a prominent UK firm with a Singapore office that's okay.There might be others but UK has the widest range.

48 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Most other members have been able to understand this issue but nevertheless, the search continues for a suitable form of RD words that will satisfy this point for everyone.

This surprises me a little because the RD requirement is not complex.Taxpayers with assessable income are required to file returns even though (in their opinion) there is no tax to pay.

4 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

To add.....I was surprised the opposing team didn't have anything to say, those who have been loud advocates saying there's no need to file a return if there's no tax to pay, why is that? Have they changed their minds, are they unsure, or maybe they also wanted to hear what everyone else had to say on the subject. Have to say, the PWC quotes posted by Jim paint an uncomfortable picture and strongly suggest that returns are required, regardless. Unsure, jury is still out.

Haven't seen the PWC quotes mentioned but have read the latest PWC tax publication for Thailand (maybe the same,I haven't checked)

It is very specific, see relevant part quoted below.

"Tax administration
Thailand applies a self-assessment system in collecting taxes.
Taxpayers are required to declare their tax liabilities in the prescribed
tax returns and pay the tax due at the time of filing.
The following individuals are required to file income tax returns for
income earned in the preceding tax year irrespective of whether there
is any tax due:
• A person who has no spouse and earns income of more than
Baht 60,000
• A person who has no spouse and earns income under category
(1) (salaries and wages) of more than Baht 120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income of more than Baht
120,000
• A person who has a spouse and earns income under category (1)
(salaries and wages) of more than Baht 220,000."

It specifies the individuals who need to declare their tax liabilities "irrespective of whether there is any tax due." All refer to income earned in the preceding tax year (I assume that means 2024). Doesn't it follow that those for example didn't remit any funds in 2024 and even those who only remitted pre-2024 exempted funds don't need to submit a return?

Frankly I think this particular tax return discussion is a bit silly.There aren't "opposing teams" just a common wish to improve understanding - and there are no rights or wrongs at this stage.What we are required to do - prospective filers and non filers - will emerge by the end of the year.

8 minutes ago, Ben Zioner said:

"A taxpayer identification number is issued by the Revenue Department and comprises 10 digits.However, a taxpayer who is an individual or a payer of income who is an individual is not required to apply for a TIN if he has and uses a personal identification number (PIN) in accordance with the civilian registration law. He can use his PIN instead of TIN for tax return filing purposes."
 

From the RD document you refer to, foreigners seem obliged to apply for a TIN rather than a PIN.

45 minutes ago, JackGats said:

Ok then I think PIN = TIN. Give your PIN to UBS saying it's your Thai TIN.

 

I heard a similar story but the reverse, namely it could work to use one's Thai TIN instead of the Pink Card number, in case one had a TIN but no Pink Card.

Just because one knows what one's TIN number will be isn't surely sufficient.It actually needs to be registered and associated with your name at the Tax Department - or so I would think.

16 minutes ago, Klonko said:

The general consensus seems to be: you have to file but no consequences if no taxes owed.

Is that the general consensus? There will be many tax residents who have no assessable income.In other words they made substantial remittances to Thailand before 31.12.24 from funds acquired before that date.This presumably would also apply to funds remitted during 2024 if clear these were earned before 31.12.24.In the latter case one would need to provide proof if required.

Hard to say whether a tax return required in such circumstances.Not a big deal but would RD be interested in a nil return? Would they even accept one? Best advice is probably to wait and see over the next few months and if necessary obtain a TIN later in the year.

41 minutes ago, placnx said:

A majority in the US now are against Israel's reactionary atrocities committed on a scale beyond anything since WW2. Whatever IDF did, it should have avoided alienating the US public. Also, exposing itself to charges of genocide was a fateful choice.

Another person who refuses (or is unable) to answer the question posed - how should have Israel have responded to Hamas's murderous pogrom of October 7th.There is a consensus that the Israeli have hugely overreacted and there is understandable compassion for civilian casualties in Gaza.A pity the Israelis, specifically the dreadful Netanyahu did not heed Biden's warning about the need for restraint.But the question remains - what should Israel have done in response?

The genocide chatter is in my view nonsense but I won't debate that here, and in no sense was it a choice.The foolish comment about the Israeli incursion being likened to the worst since WW2 needs to be debunked.In neighboring Syria over 500,000 have been massacred in Assad's war.There have been greater numbers of casualties in many places - Myanmar, Sudan, China, Rwanda etc etc.These matters are complex but I believe Israel is the only country which faces an existential threat.Hamas has vowed to repeat their crimes until Israel is erased altogether.As always there is a great deal of Jew hatred involved in the current global campaign against Israel.It was ever thus.

13 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

The Revenue Code does not say that. If members wish to interpret that not filing a return is OK, just because no taxes are due and there is no penalty, that is their prerogative.

I don't think this can be left to the discretion of members.Some people will file (and have filed) even when do do so is unnecessary.Others with no taxable income will not file on the basis there is no significant penalty.Others including me will wait for specific RD guidance or failing that a steer from one of the leading accountancy firms.

1 hour ago, SomNaNa555 said:

Not by slaughter innocent civilians and committing genocide 

Once again he ducks the question.

We know what has been done wrong.What we never hear is an opinion on what would have been an appropriate response to the murderous atrocities committed by Hamas.

10 hours ago, Wobblybob said:

They are not the sharpest tools in the box jay. 😕

I'm not claiming they are other than intelligent and principled - but they will not answer my question about what Israel should have done, and through their silence on that matter forfeit their position.

14 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I think there is something about having to work like a dog for 14 years or so  before making some real coin that sets Drs apart from mere humans.

 

I liked many of the Drs I worked with, but some were really awful people.

Possibly but I can imagine some doctors - retired or otherwise ending up in Pattaya, though an unlikely scenario.

British Judges are a different category altogether and it is simply unimaginable.

1 hour ago, SomNaNa555 said:

Jayboy is an Israeli troll. Ignore 

In other words, neither you nor he is willing to say how Israel should have responded to the Hamas atrocities in October.

4 minutes ago, Hummin said:

Not by terror bombing civilians and force them on run in a district same size Detroit, and about same density of population, but no where to run! 

Be specific and don't suggest what Israel ought not to have done.What in general terms should Israel have done in response to the October 7th atrocities?

On 3/30/2024 at 8:30 AM, Hummin said:

We all understand the complexity of this conflict, we understand the jews fighting for their existence, and we understand those behind 7. October must pay for what they did, and we also understand, Hamas have to lay down their weapons, and surrender! But thats not happening, instead Israel choose to kill civilians! 

 

You apparently do not understand since you conflate "the Jews" with the state of Israel.Earlier you seek to sanitize the crimes of October 7th by suggesting those horrors should be seen in context.You concede that those behind the October 7th massacre (ie Hamas and those that protect/support them) should be punished but like many critics of Israel you do not specify how Israel should do that.

1 hour ago, ThaiPauly said:

My CI Bank hounded me for my TIN  about 5 years ago.

I actually have one from when I had a company here 20 years ago

 

Would this be what you may be referring to Jayboy?

I have a feeling the system changed so that old TIN numbers may not be applicable now. I was in the same position as you and had to get a new number.

As to CI banks chasing I resisted for a long time.The risk is that they are not averse to debanking customers who don't meet their criteria - and they are being pressured by their governments on the CRS issue.I decided not to take the risk - though I don't really know how material it is.

53 minutes ago, ThaiPauly said:

What sort of answer is that?

 

It's a bullsh*t answer as you have not addressed the question.

 

Means I think you made it up unless you can give me any details I will assume its not factual

It's a succinct but pertinent answer.If you have not heard from your CI bank, you will in the future.

Assuming you are a Thai tax resident, the UK and the Channel Islands have an active CRS relationship with Thailand. Banks are obliged to report  accounts to the Thai tax authorities. To make that report, they need your TIN. That's why they will ask for it.

3 hours ago, ThaiPauly said:

I bank in the CI and have received no pressure from them to do anything

You will.

30 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

I have assessible income in Thailand that must be reported under Thai tax law and I chose to do so. What is unnecessary about that!

You mean interest on bank deposits as you have previously reported ? Fair enough, but most expats not already in the Thai tax system would regard these as de minimis in view of the paltry amounts usually involved.

35 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Any informal statistics you may have developed over however many years, from whatever casual sources, regarding how many expat foreigners do or do not pay tax on overseas income in Thailand is purely anecdotal, that is definitely not up for debate.

Your use of language is rather imprecise.Of course expat foreigners pay Thai tax on overseas income - when employed here I did so myself since my salary was paid in the UK but related to my work in Thailand.But we are talking about retired expats and it is not really plausible to suggest other than a tiny minority filed returns in the past.If you regard the senior managers in top Thailand accounting firms as "casual sources'. so be it.Of course much of the evidence is anecdotal but its value or otherwise depend on the experience and integrity of the source.People will make up their own minds.

14 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

You have no knowledge regarding how many retired foreigners have or have not paid tax on overseas income or filed returns each year, your statement in bold above is only a guess

It is an informed opinion based on several decades of residence (both employed and retired) and knowledge of the Thailand tax system.I am not criticizing those who unnecessarily filed returns such as yourself.For doubters, talk to any expatriate advisers in Thailand's leading accountancy firms, but frankly the subject's not up for debate.

20 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Anecdotal data from posts on this forum over many years however, have reported many many times that pensioners often use the monthly income method and have their pensions deposited directly into Thai banks, I am one such person and have done so for years. Those are pensioners who in many cases, under previous and existing rules, probably had assessible income and probably ought to have filed tax returnbut frankly the subject is not really up for debate. under Thai Revenue tax law.

Yes, but not really relevant to the subject  of whether retired expatriates with no Thai income have been filing returns.

10 hours ago, Mike Lister said:

You are assuming that taxing foreigners is something new that has never been done before. The fact is Ryan, we've no idea how many foreigners are already being taxed here and have been paying tax for years. Just because tax is a new issue for many AN members, doesn't mean it's a new issue for all foreigners here. If I was told that the number of foreign tax payers was large, I wouldn't be at all surprised.

All employed foreigners in Thailand pay tax and always have done so and that is not up for debate.I speak as someone formerly in that category.The more pertinent question for this forum is how many retired expats without Thai generated income and resident more than 180 days have filed returns and paid tax - that is up to now.The answer is almost none though a tiny minority may have filed returns for reasons best known to themselves, and sometimes quite unnecessarily.The Thai Revenue Department in practice had no issues with that.The situation has changed now and though the practical aspects are still not fully clear we have a reasonable understanding of how matters will play out.

1 hour ago, Baht Simpson said:

Can you name some of them? Let's have a look at them.

Not on this forum and certainly not with someone with your posting record.

1 hour ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Maybe this “deranged and quasi fascistic part of the transgender movement which aggressively looks to take up public space on these issues.” doesn’t exist neither in reality nor in the behaviors you attribute.