jayboy

Normally those who illegally participate in the seizure of installations such as airports are known as terrorists.I'm not tied to this term however and would equally be happy with "absurd plonker"

The most serious alleged offence you can think of relations to Abhisit's direct involvement as Prime Minister in the murder of unarmed Thais and foreigners on the streets of Bangkok.(You forgot to mention the last part)

Seems to me there was a much more glaringly obvious piece of missing information that you somehow forgot to mention in your little precis of Thaksin's alleged crimes.

Huh? I didn't give a précis of his crimes,just an example of a particularly silly charge.

If you can't think for yourself of an alleged crime that has been made against Thaksin more serious than the examples you offered, i think there is little point continuing this discussion.

I'm not trying to provoke but I'm genuinely puzzled.Do you mean the drugs war during his premiership, although he has never been charged with that?

The most serious alleged offence you can think of relations to Abhisit's direct involvement as Prime Minister in the murder of unarmed Thais and foreigners on the streets of Bangkok.(You forgot to mention the last part)

Seems to me there was a much more glaringly obvious piece of missing information that you somehow forgot to mention in your little precis of Thaksin's alleged crimes.

Huh? I didn't give a précis of his crimes,just an example of a particularly silly charge.

I have no idea of what you think I forgot.If you tell me I will respond.

I think that the Pheu Thai and The Red Shirts can only gain true credibility if they can really get rid of the ammart groups and also the thai chinese hisos that the Democrats have been supporting.

It is interesting that the forum red cheerleaders are ready to play the race card and play their politics to the extreme right.

And still think they stand on the left.

The oddest thing though is that when one points out that Thaksin and his family also come from Thai Chinese stock, they go all silent.

And then seemingly blank it from their minds in order to repeat the anti-Chinese slurs a few months later.

As will happen right now.

Don't forget that it was the PAD fascists that played the race card first with their negative rhetoric at their rallies about Thais with different ethnicities, alongside their ubiquitous "Sons of China" placards.

Personally I think it's quite reasonable to point out that the urban middle class in this country, the bedrock of the opposition's support, is mainly Sino-Thai.Thailand has generally absorbed Chinese immigration well and has far fewer problems in this area than neighbouring countries.But still triumphalism needs to be avoided.

Your comment on Thaksin is just lame.

From a human point of view one can understand his objection to being punished while arguably more serious alleged offences by Abhisit, Suthep et al go unpunished.

Arguably more serious alleged offences by Abhisit?

The most serious alleged offence i can think of regarding Abhisit would be relating to his involvement in the 2010 crackdown. No doubting or questioning the seriousness of that alleged offence, just wondering how you think it can be argued as being more serious than some of Thaksin's alleged crimes?

The most serious alleged offence you can think of relations to Abhisit's direct involvement as Prime Minister in the murder of unarmed Thais and foreigners on the streets of Bangkok.(You forgot to mention the last part)

Thaksin could have avoided many of the charges of against him if he had put in place a blind trust (of the type Romney will institute if he wins).We know also froom Wikileaks and elsewhere that even though the charges against Thaksin are relatively trivial, the establishment was out to nail him on any pretext.Some of the charges like the lottery action are just plain ridiculous.This is why no country took the terrorist Kasit's calls for extradition seriously - obviously politically motivated.None of this suggests that Thaksin isn't corrupt and unfit for purpose, but his crimes are not in the same league as those alleged of Abhisit.The latter would in some jurisdictions if proved warrant the death penalty, Thaksin's in contrast if proved a short stretch inside.

Whichever way you look at it,

Taksin S gave the thai nation democracy, the military junta dictatorship took it from them, but Taksin S gave it back again.

For sure Taksin S will be judged in thai and international history as the "founding-father of thai democracy"

A sort of thai George Washington.

Its that magnitude of a moment in time.

Seriously, what are you on?

In say 50 years time the judgements of historians might surprise quite a few if we were able to look forward

The only "compromise" that seems to be coming from the Thaksin/PTP/red side is a complete white wash of Thaksin's crimes.

That's NOT a compromise.

I don't suppose either of us is on the inside track here but surely it doesn't make sense to think of monolithic blocks.However, with this caveat, my understanding there is obstinacy on both sides.It's further complicated since as in any negotiation, nobody wishes to make concessions prematurely.I do understand that powerful elements in the military and feudal circles want to do a deal, but have been stymied by more hardline elements.

Thaksin's position is inscrutable.He has already received back a large part of his confiscated dosh, but I'm guessing this is not the driving factor.His sister is in power and his party looks unassailable.So a more philosophical guy might think he had all but won.Personally I don't much care.

Some interesting but flawed viewpoints being put forward by the anti-democracy supporters.

However these people should take note of the thai peoples verdict on all this, the very same thai people who saw their democratically elected government couped, and military law imposed upon them, then through the military assaults on peaceful protestors, at the asean conference, and bangkok rallies. .

Their verdict was a resounding, overwhelming, historic, landslide election victory for the democratic elements of society

What abisit, the dems, the PAD , etc stand for was completely rejected at the ballot box..

"resounding, overwhelming, historic, landslide"

When was that ? I recall PTP in July-2011 as being 48.4% of the 75%-ish who voted, and most of them were looking for the immediate nation-wide B300/day minimum-wage, which they're still waiting for, or their free laptop, which they're still waiting for, etcetera ?

I believe you are trying to soft-land the total and utter rejection of the undemocratic elements at work in thai politics.

Let me summarise for you " 265 to 159".

The undemocratic element of this government is the sight of government ministers going overseas to kiss hands with Thaksin.

They have to lie and deny they are discussing political decision-making with a wanted criminal.

The election vote, believe it or not, is not a vote for an elected dictatorship. That is why elected MPS have to declare a loyalty oath.

Nor is a government absolved from criticism or even being removed from office in the event of wrong-doing.

Election is not a 'get-out-of-jail' card, though it appears to be the last refuge of Thaksin apologists when they have run out arguments.

Which is about now in your case.

Nobody would disagree that the current situation is unsatisfactory with Thaksin in exile and facing charges.We know that the unelected elite establishment is split with some particularly in the military wishing to do a deal.My hunch is that this would involve Thaksin serving some brief time in prison.His planet sized ego probably rules that course out however though in my opinion it could be quite a savvy move, even savvier if he had returned to face the music much earlier.From a human point of view one can understand his objection to being punished while arguably more serious alleged offences by Abhisit, Suthep et al go unpunished.It is interesting why some are so opposed to a compromise when it would be so obviously in the interests of the country.

The post quoted illustrates the real agenda.Thakin, Taksin, Tak Sin (<deleted>) is the subject of this group's obsessive interest.The rhetoric is insanely directed at undermining the legitimacy of elections - elected dictatorship etc - much like the objections to democracy in a 1950's Latin American banana republic.Actually one has some sympathy with the proposition that general elections are only part of the democratic process.However the main message one takes is the visceral hatred of the Thai majority achieving power and influence, and the determination to roll back democratic advances, ugly sentiments but sanitised by keeping the demon Thaksin in the foreground.The irony is that due to an almost complete lack of enlightened self interest the reactionaries will not only lose their case but be the cause of the institiutions they most value being weakened - which will certainly be to Thailand's disadvantage..The ignorance and folly of it is staggering.

Is the coup actually relevant any more? It happened. Then there were elections. Move on.

Keen to "move on" but still obsessed with Thaksin.

I believe future historians will consider the last military coup as the death blow of the old unelected elites.

That well known communist agitator, Lee Kwan Yew of Singapore, would also disagree with you about the relevance of the coup.

http://www.forbes.co...r-and-thailand/

Money quote

"Thailand itself transitioned from an absolute monarchy to a democratic constitutional monarchy. Regular and rambunctious elections are held, but the army continues to stage coups whenever it considers the government unreliable or going against the monarchy. Over the last 80 years there have been 11 successful coups and 7 failed ones. The most recent was the ouster of prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in September 2006. The military’s interference has resulted in a perpetual state of political uncertainty and has shaken investor confidence."

"Move on from the (2006) coup" - Yes, because the coup happened, and elections have happened.

"Move on from Thaksin" - No, because he is still sticking his nose in. When he moves on, people who don't like him can move on.

"Move on from military interference" - At the moment, the military don't seem to be interfering in things (aside from general corruption). Start moving on, but be wary.

You simply regurgitate the same sentiment as before.Everybody should move on except for those that detest Thaksin.

I was amused by your peculiar comment that the military don't seem to be interfering at the moment.Rather like having Jimmy Savile as a permanent house guest on the basis that it's been some time since he interfered with ones daughter.

As for Thaksin "sticking his nose in" it may have escaped your attention that parties representing his interests keep on winning general elections.I would have thought that gives him a right, perhaps even a duty and responsibility, to remain involved - if at a distance.

Delusions of leading Thaksin's ideological rebuttal unit room might be at hand.

Love it...............

The RTA under the aegis of AV's government shot Thai citizens in the head.

Got it ??

Or all the red Marxist hordes from Issan coming to turn to golf courses into farang grave yards ??

There are two things I have got. One is that the reds were a violent movement under the behest of Thaksin in 2010. And armed.

And second, is that the hordes from Issan have no relationship whatsoever with Marxism. Marx and Lenin very clear on the distinction between the proletariat and the peasantry.

If you want to see the 2010 events in class terms, then look on it as an attack on the livelihoods of the Bangkok working class organised by a split in the ruling class (Thaksin) using petty-bourgeois and declasse elements (Jatuporn et al) and with the strategic alliance of the northern landowners. As for the agricultural workers, no land reforms for them, just 500 baht a day for a week's outing...

Irrespective of the class war verbiage from the reds and the rotten remnants of the Thai Stalinist Communist Party. the reds are ideologically junk from top to bottom. Marxist? Not for one minute.

You seem to have difficulty in distinguishing between Marxist theory and Marxist tools of analysis, so sadly confused in your last post.I doubt whether you are familiar with Alexander Pope but I would commend to you the following:

A little learning is a dangerous thing

Drink deep, or taste not the Pieran spring;

There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,

And drinking largely sobers us again.

Is the coup actually relevant any more? It happened. Then there were elections. Move on.

Keen to "move on" but still obsessed with Thaksin.

I believe future historians will consider the last military coup as the death blow of the old unelected elites.

That well known communist agitator, Lee Kwan Yew of Singapore, would also disagree with you about the relevance of the coup.

http://www.forbes.co...r-and-thailand/

Money quote

"Thailand itself transitioned from an absolute monarchy to a democratic constitutional monarchy. Regular and rambunctious elections are held, but the army continues to stage coups whenever it considers the government unreliable or going against the monarchy. Over the last 80 years there have been 11 successful coups and 7 failed ones. The most recent was the ouster of prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra in September 2006. The military’s interference has resulted in a perpetual state of political uncertainty and has shaken investor confidence."

it seems many here are forgetting the crackdown weeks before near democracy (ironic isnt it) monument. I was refering to the tanks that were brought in there to clear a pieceful protest. I walked through that protest (on my way to Ko San) and saw absoulutely no weapons or "men in black" or anything else that would suggest anything but a peiceful protest. The next day I am seeing videos on youtube of unarmed people being shot in the head. The day after I went back and saw that burger king's front wall looked like swiss cheese, disabled tanks on the street and 10's of protestor coffins surronding the monument.

I have trouble understanding how people can hate Taksin soo much that they are willing to overlook blatent crimes against humanity such as these. For the record, I am not a fan of Taksin, my ideology falls closer with the yellow shirts but they give all capitalist a bad name when they do such things.

Unfortunately, when a Thaksin apologist claims that they are not a fan of Thaksin and that they are merely telling the truth, they often give themselves away with the deliberate misspelling of Thaksin's name to correspond with the historical figure King Taksin. The royalist pretension (read absolutist). Maybe in this case also claiming to be a yellow shirt supporter (pull the other one) they think that they will get a more sympathetic hearing on the TV website. For those who were around in 2010 there was a veritable boiler room of invented red supporters pushing the red line. The trouble is they all left a rather silly calling card and the 'Taksin' spelling is this one. As for the 'I saw a peaceful protest and I saw tanks', just fits in with the fictional stories put out by these people.

Congratulations.You have just won the coveted Tinfoil Hat Memorial Prize for the weirdest and most off the wall post of the month.

There is very little difference in voter psychology anywhere.The suggestion that vote buying in Thailand has had any significant influence on outcome has been discredited.However it is perfectly true that voters are self interested and elect politicians who they perceive will improve their economic position.

In the case of the pampered Thai middle class this means supporting parties that for have decades ensured urban areas received priority in health, education and infrastructure.Frankly when I hear these people complaining about rural populism I am sickened by their hypocrisy and selfishness.The outrageous priority given to the urban middle class is the most objectionable form of vote buying.

I'm not convinced that 'vote buying' no longer has any influence. It may no longer lead to surprises, but simply consolidate positions.

As for the 'rural populism' after years of 'urban populism', well ... Apart from politics there're also the minor aspects of industry, economy, trade, etc.. A balance would be nice! Mind you most European countries and the UK have had similar issues and maybe still have

I think that's a fair comment on vote buying.It goes without saying that it should be discouraged and if possible stamped out wherever it occurs.

Leaving populism on one side, it's surprising how much common ground there is between the two main parties including industry, economy,trade which you mention but also on financial management.In part this is because there is actually little blue water between the two on these matters but also because of the higher bureaucracy which provides continuity and generally high standards.Of course if the radical redshirt element split off and somehow achieved power all this might change - for the worse.Then we would have something to worry about in terms of damaging Chavez type populism.

Almost all countries as you suggest experience this tension between the haves and the have nots.Careful navigation is important as you again suggest.Thailand should understand it's not a world to itself and there are lessons to be learned from within the region and outside.There is no such thing as Thai exceptionalism.

The usual suspects - always the same ones - twist and turn, dishonest, abusive and intellectually bankrupt by turns.They simply cannot accept the reality that the government scores well with the Thai people and that the opposition perfomance is mediocre.Their laughable excuses do provide a measure of entertainment.Actually the more intelligent and perceptive Democrats like Korn understand the problem rather well and it will be interesting to see how his efforts to detoxify his party will succeed.

Very true one of the reasons (but not exclusively) that PTP do so well is because the Dems are not up to scratch. That doesn't mean PTP are far from it!

The dems need to get out on th road and meet the people on a daily and continual basis and put themselves out, get their message out, represent local people on local issues that affect them, if that means they have to go into the heartland of the reds and be intimidated, they need to man up and do just that.

As cold hearted as I might sound after a few beatings of Dem canvassers the powers that be in PTP will start to get very nervous, because as the dems disastrously found out political or state sponsored violence (and i use that term loosely here) against the people = lost votes. Thai folk can't stomach it anymore. And they will be eventually left alone.

As i said the dems need to get out and meet the people at the local level and work with local people to find solutions to their problems rather than roll out their solutions from Bangkok without knowing what the problem is to begin with. In effect they have to copy PTP strategy, go grassroots farmer style and hope they can split some of the PTP vote so that after the next election PTP will have a coalition government as opposed to an outright majority this time (although PTP has included other parties in its government to add value to reconciliation). If as is often the case in Thai politics coalition governments don't last long (and it is always a messy collapse) and the Dems continue to meet the people they maybe in a stronger position 5-6 years down the line to get back in.

Interesting and perceptive.Though few would credit it, I would like to see a resurgence in Democrat strength and your suggestions form part of that process.The hard part is to accept that Abhisit, talented but fatally flawed, must be ditched and the party must unharness itself from the army, feudalists and other reactionaries.

This is just a poll, 70% of this country really aren't well informed enough to be grading the govt, Peua Thai are overwhelmingly the better party at winning the hearts and minds of the poor and being swift and effective with it, but it's done using the tax money mostly of those who don't support it and make most the financial contribution to the state. The populist policies of PT are brilliant for winning elections but terrible for public economics, riddled with wastage and corruption.

If 70% aren't qualified to grade the government they by your logic are not qualified to participate in choosing it.That's the platform of the yellow reactionaries:if that's what you believe, say so.You also seem to have forgotten that the Democrats campaigned at the last election on an equally populist platform but could not overcome its toxic image and incompetent leadership.PTP incidentally could never win by depending on the votes of the poor alone.

The usual suspects - always the same ones - twist and turn, dishonest, abusive and intellectually bankrupt by turns.They simply cannot accept the reality that the government scores well with the Thai people and that the opposition perfomance is mediocre.Their laughable excuses do provide a measure of entertainment.Actually the more intelligent and perceptive Democrats like Korn understand the problem rather well and it will be interesting to see how his efforts to detoxify his party will succeed.

Moral bankruptcy, I think, is to accept the numbers as a validation of the ethics and performance of the government. A government that is lead by a criminal fugitive, with policies that are on the fast track to bankrupting (financially in this case) the country, that openly disregards the law and stuffed full of gangsters and family members of the previously mentioned criminal fugitive.

But a poll gives them a higher score, so that makes it alright, yes?

It's not a question of making it "alright": it's simply a demonstration of public opinion, the incompetence of the Democrats and the superior political skills of the current government.

Incidentally your reference to policies likely to bankrupt the country presumably refers to the rice price support programme.It's not a programme that I believe sensible in the long term but it is financial illiteracy to suggest it is ruinous.

Two-thirds praised Pheu Thai for responding quickly to people's problems, while 58.9 per cent frowned on the Democrats for indulging only in politicking.

I wonder how the respondents expect the Democrats to respond to their problems given that the Democrats aren't in a position to actually do anything? What does any opposition do besides "politicking"?

Huh? Are you in effect suggesting that people being polled favour the government because the opposition don't have power.Tell that to Dave Cameron.

Amazing Thailand. A week after joining the party, you are a good candidate for future leader, because you are related to the owner.

You're right.It's odd that an inexperienced woman should lead the party purely on the basis of her name.

And yet despite this disadvantage she went on to take her party to a convincing general election victory, consolidated her position and now easily ahead in the opinion polls.So what does that tell us about the quality of the Democrat opposition?

No it's not tax. Anyone can pay tax. But you need to be working for a thai company (with WP) for 3yrs,, with minimum income requirements.

I can only pass on what I have been told by experts, namely the inability to show personal tax forms with receipts (por ngor dor 50) is the main reason applicants are unable to progress.Obviously this implies working for the required period with valid work permit and visa.

If you're implying that I have a shortage of cash and tons of time on my hands, you're wrong. I don't see how hiring a lawyer is going to save you much time -- only you can put the documents in order, and you have to appear at immigration in person at most steps along the way.

The immigration officials who helped me along appreciated that I was doing it myself and did everything they could to smooth the process fir me. More than one confided that they detest the scum-sucking lawyers who manage to convince hapless applicants that they are indispensable.

But...to each his own.

I agree lawyers are not necessary in the process and equally there are some very dubious operators out there - so caution is appropriate.

It suited me however to employ a lawyer.