jayboy

A Barney the dinosaur outfit would be more suitable for this intellectual powerhouse.

Within second of my post my point is proven

I don't think there have ever been any charges against Thaksin for Terrorism, only allegations.

He has been charged and an arrest warrant has been issued in this potential death penalty case.

Thaksin Faces Thai Terrorism Charges

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704026204575265750458640676.html

Yup the elite want him back to face the death penalty.Strange that they already paid him back a chunk of his confiscated wealth.Truth is that the elite badly want a deal and eventually one will be done.

In terms of sympathy for the redshirt movement, albeit with caveats, there is huge support among the most educated people in the Kingdom.

Have you got any concrete evidence of this?

Armed with some understanding of Thaiscript, you only have to look around online to find plenty of it to the contrary.

I was thinking of that grouping sometimes known as the intelligentsia - university academics, elite university educated professionals, leading journalists etc.Note I am not saying this represents other than a minority of well educated Thais nor does it imply any respect for Thaksin.But it is a very significant and impressive group, a world away from the often hysterical online presence you mention - 'the velly educate peeple".

Well I have close contact with many Thai academics and I can assure you that a very very large percentage of them detest the man and what he is doing to Thailand.

It is true that when the paymaster first appeard on the scene and painted the picture that he was the saviour of the poor etc., he got support from a lot of academics etc., who readily agreed that the poor are downtrodden and whole picture desperately needed big changes.

And there are a few academics who still support him. But, ask them why and in most cases you never get a logical answer.

Your intimate connection with Thailand's greatest minds has not unfortunately improved your capacity to comprehend a simply expressed post which made it crystal clear it was not about Thaksin .

In terms of sympathy for the redshirt movement, albeit with caveats, there is huge support among the most educated people in the Kingdom.

Have you got any concrete evidence of this?

Armed with some understanding of Thaiscript, you only have to look around online to find plenty of it to the contrary.

I was thinking of that grouping sometimes known as the intelligentsia - university academics, elite university educated professionals, leading journalists etc.Note I am not saying this represents other than a minority of well educated Thais nor does it imply any respect for Thaksin.But it is a very significant and impressive group, a world away from the often hysterical online presence you mention - 'the velly educate peeple".

Having looked for media accounts of Thaksin's visit (apart from the predictable Thai based reports) I eventually found an American perspective which is in direct contradiction of the impression given by the usual suspects:

http://blogs.lmu.edu...ngeles-and-lmu/

I'm not sure that this proves anything other than an internet search will come up with anything.I retain my view that the whole visit amounts to almost zero interest and significance

Pro-Thaksin Amsterdam-esque articles being hosted under a .edu domain. I suppose this must reflect on the institution rather than Academia itself.

Except for one anti-Thaksin demonstration in Los Angeles, it has been smooth going here in the U.S.

Loyola Marymount University

Why do the educated class hate Thaksin, Jayboy? I'd love to hear your Ox-Bridge influenced reasoning for it.

I know nothing about Loyola Marymount University nor the author of the article.My point was simply that if one is obsessive enough and has plenty of time to spare one can find some corner of the internet that contrives to "prove one's point".Quite who these armchair warriors are trying to convince is hard to say since it's very much preaching to the converted.As always the best lack all conviction and the worst are full of passionate intesity.The account on this thread on Thaksin's visit to America has been dominated by those who hate the man (their right as previously noted) and are therefore naturally keen to put their spin on what appears to have been a rather boring and insignificant trip.

I don't think it can be assumed that the educated class hate Thaksin though many do.With foreigners strangely enough the reverse seems to be true.As for Thais it's true the mainly Sino Thai middle class that loathe him as do of course the unelected feudal, military, bureaucratic and old style business elites.In a way it's a pointless question because in the long term Thaksin isn't the issue and his significance is much more as a catalyst.Most educated people probably feel a distaste for the man I agree, as they do for most Thai politicians.In terms of sympathy for the redshirt movement, albeit with caveats, there is huge support among the most educated people in the Kingdom.

Having looked for media accounts of Thaksin's visit (apart from the predictable Thai based reports) I eventually found an American perspective which is in direct contradiction of the impression given by the usual suspects:

http://blogs.lmu.edu/asiamedia/2012/08/16/thailands-thaksin-visits-los-angeles-and-lmu/

I'm not sure that this proves anything other than an internet search will come up with anything.I retain my view that the whole visit amounts to almost zero interest and significance

I would have thought this was rather dangerous territory for the Democrats.Since they have never been committed to an in depth investigation of the events of 2010 it would seem odd to ask a foreign power to consider just one part of it (the allegations against Thaksin) when the actions of their own leaders (Abhisit, Suthep) and the brutal generals remain unscrutinised.I don't for a moment believe the US Congressional Committee will take much notice of the Democrats' silly grandstanding but hypothetically the Americans might just start asking some questions about the deaths of civilians that the Dems prefer not to examine.

Whats to investigate it was all over TV and you can find it on u tube. The red shirts led a armed invasion in down town Bangkok and the army stopped them. The same as the Germans and Japan led a armed invasion in the second world war and the allies stopped them. do you want a full investigation of the allies?

Many civilians died in the second world war. When you leed a armed invasion in civilian terratory civilians get killed. Thaksin should be on the hot seat for this but you red shirts are in power and that sure is not in your plans. White wash the villains is your plan.

If he only knew how revealing his post was.Sometimes it's not necessary to respond when as this instance he condemns himself.

As said, its all just rumors, some disproved, others not... but their existence is a reflection of the lack of official notices, press releases, main stream media involvement, and the associated clarity they bring.

Instead, up to now, it's all been a hodge-podge of mish-mash.

Have you and Ratcatcher considered the possibility that the lack of publicity is simply because his visit is neither very newsworthy or interesting.

Most Thai people (with an interest in politics) are vaguely aware Thaksin obtained a US visa and was met by PAD protestors at some locations - not very dramatic and not very surprising.

We regulars - including myself - on Thai Visa political threads tend to get a bit obsessive (some markedly more than others) but let's have a little self awareness.Thaksin's foreign trips are not very controversial now.

This one is controversial as it involves the lone superpower country left. One that he hasn't visited to in 6 years.

It's also the first one where he noticeably appealed to the local Thais living in a foreign country. Coincidentally, it's also the first one where he was noticeably rejected by the local Thais living in a foreign country.

He goes to Cambodia he hugs the head of state like a long lost brother and is given a position within the Cambodian government.

He goes to Nicaragua and he is met and accommodated for by the head of state. He's provided with a passport of that country while there.

What has gotten in the USA? Jeers and shouts of "Go To Jail!" as descends down a rickety staircase from a walk-up noodle shop where he met with 10 supporters over spring rolls.... yeah, this has all been a dramatic change from his normal operation.

Judging by the amount of interest this has generated on the local Thai boards and blogs, its clearly more than a few who are "vaguely aware" of the USA tour and its implications. They're yammering away about it all over.

The thing is, there's been a void created by the aforementioned PR machine seizing up and the worst managed tour in a long time... and that's fertile ground for rumor starting.

.

Fair enough.You make a reasonable case though I have yet to see much if any international coverage of the matter.As for local web boards I don't think they reflect much except the views of those who hold very strong opinions, certainly not most Thais.

Lopburi many thanks for such a quick and helpful answer.I had been thrown by the lack of ref numbers on the front page of the bill. (A late night on Friday didn't help!)

Thanks again

As said, its all just rumors, some disproved, others not... but their existence is a reflection of the lack of official notices, press releases, main stream media involvement, and the associated clarity they bring.

Instead, up to now, it's all been a hodge-podge of mish-mash.

Have you and Ratcatcher considered the possibility that the lack of publicity is simply because his visit is neither very newsworthy or interesting.

Most Thai people (with an interest in politics) are vaguely aware Thaksin obtained a US visa and was met by PAD protestors at some locations - not very dramatic and not very surprising.

We regulars - including myself - on Thai Visa political threads tend to get a bit obsessive (some markedly more than others) but let's have a little self awareness.Thaksin's foreign trips are not very controversial now.

I just noticed I can pay my internet bill (True online) online at Bank of Ayudhya.The bank asks for billing information as follows - Customer No (Ref No 1) and Reference No (Ref No 2).If any kind person can tell me where I can find this info on my Trueonline bill I would be very grateful.

I don't want to personalise this grammar issue.Nor is an errant 's' significant in itself.The only point is that those who constantly mock their fellow countrymen for their stupidity and ignorance should take the time to ensure they - with immensely greater advantages in life - cannot be charged with hypocrisy.

.

And now, Anti-Thaksin protesters in Washington, DC

News Chaopraya (article in Thai)

http://www.chaoprayanews.com/2012/08/16/%E2%80%9C%E0%B8%97%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%81%E0%B8%A9%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%93%E2%80%9D-%E0%B8%9C%E0%B8%A7%E0%B8%B2%E0%B8%9E%E0%B8%B1%E0%B8%99%E0%B8%98%E0%B8%A1%E0%B8%B4%E0%B8%95%E0%B8%A3%E0%B8%AF-%E0%B8%94%E0%B8%B5/

.

You would think with all those smart people there someone would have proof read the banner.

Ahhh yes the 's' on return. Well spotted

sent from my Wellcom A90+

But they are " velly educate peeple" as we know from previous placards held by their Bangkok brothers in arms.

Most Thai in the USA are Rich.

Hence most Thai in the USA are Yellow PAD.

No you haven't got it quite right.Most Thais in the US are middle class but only a minority are politicised.For reasons already discussed the Anti Thaksin faction there would have much more support than the redshirts.

Incidentally given the eclipse of PAD and the yellow shirts I'm not sure it's helpful to retain those labels to describe those who detest Thaksin.As I have always conceded there are se very honourable people in that grouping.

I acknowledge his endearing popularity with a handful of people.

That's a rather strange way of describing a man who is by any measure by far the most popular politician in Thailand with many millions of supporters, and whose party keeps on winning election after election.

It's perfectly in order to dislike and criticize him but when that obsession reduces someone to ridiculous untruths it either displays a spectacular igmorance or a step into Cartalucci land.

Jayboy

Thaksin wasn't in the TRT, PPP governments and isnt even a member of the PT Party, when was the last time his popularity was tested? He has been corrupt, a convicted criminal and fugitve from justice longer than he was PM, so he is more infamous than popular.

PS: ditto

His popularity was tested when those parties you mention easily won general elections in Thailand.None of this means he is a reputable person and, though you may not credit it, I actually agree with much of your case against him.But if it is seriously suggested that he is a marginal figure without a huge popular base, truth itself is a victim.

I acknowledge his endearing popularity with a handful of people.

That's a rather strange way of describing a man who is by any measure by far the most popular politician in Thailand with many millions of supporters, and whose party keeps on winning election after election.

It's perfectly in order to dislike and criticize him but when that obsession reduces someone to ridiculous untruths it either displays a spectacular igmorance or a step into Cartalucci land.

An interesting take on the situation and strong verbiage from an outside Thailand news source...

Hypocrisy: Syria Burns While Mass Murdering Dictator Roams Freely in USA

Starting in February 2003, and over the course of 3 months, some 2,800 people (approximately 30 a day) would be extra-judicially murdered in the cities and countrysides of Southeast Asia's Thailand. Accused of being "drug dealers," they were systematically exterminated based on "hit lists" compiled by police given carte blanche by then Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra (a former police bureaucrat himself). It would later be determined by official investigations that over half of those killed had nothing to do with the drug trade in any way. Human Rights Watch (HRW) would confirm this in their 2008 report titled, "Thailand's 'war on drugs'," a follow up to the much more extensive 2004 report, "Not Enough Graves."

Continues:

http://hamsayeh.net/...ely-in-usa.html

Hamsayeh News - August 15, 2012

Interesting source.

Yes it's written by none other than Tony Cartalucci, who out tinfoils the the craziest and most paranoid of us all.I imagine Buchholz is just having a laugh in posting it.I mean if it was meant to be taken seriously that would suggest....

You could always "meet" Buchholz with an "article" by Andrew Spooner.

Could do but it wouldn't be comparing like with like.Not as you are suggesting the two extreme ends of a spectrum.Spooner may be obsessive to a degee, a bit of bore and (my complaint) just raking over old material but he is obviously not a lunatic, far from it.Cartalucci is as mad as a box of frogs.

This still doesn't explain why you chose to use the racial distinction to describe the US protesters (post #218). Or your assumption that those protesters harbour denigrating views about the educational status of Thaksin's supporters.

In the first instance I don't see Sino-Thai as a derogatory term at all.In fact Thailand has benefited hugely from their presence.

As to Thais in the US it's a fair assumption that most would be Sino Thai because most are middle or aspirant middle class (see previous post)

It is also true that the Sino Thai urban middle class holds the rural population responsible for their plight - poor education, lack of initiative etc.The reasons for this I have touched on earlier - and some are valid.

The interesting question is why this segment of society has so resolutely fallen under the wing of old and discredited feudal/business/military elites.In other countries the advance of democracy has produced a more confident and independent middle class.The ethnic issue is perhaps one aspect but also a sense of unease perhaps that in Thailand's extraordinary economic progress over the last 50 yeats while everybody has benefited their segment has done so much better than the rural population.

An interesting take on the situation and strong verbiage from an outside Thailand news source...

Hypocrisy: Syria Burns While Mass Murdering Dictator Roams Freely in USA

Starting in February 2003, and over the course of 3 months, some 2,800 people (approximately 30 a day) would be extra-judicially murdered in the cities and countrysides of Southeast Asia's Thailand. Accused of being "drug dealers," they were systematically exterminated based on "hit lists" compiled by police given carte blanche by then Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra (a former police bureaucrat himself). It would later be determined by official investigations that over half of those killed had nothing to do with the drug trade in any way. Human Rights Watch (HRW) would confirm this in their 2008 report titled, "Thailand’s 'war on drugs'," a follow up to the much more extensive 2004 report, "Not Enough Graves."

Continues:

http://hamsayeh.net/...ely-in-usa.html

Hamsayeh News - August 15, 2012

Interesting source.

Yes it's written by none other than Tony Cartalucci, who out tinfoils the the craziest and most paranoid of us all.I imagine Buchholz is just having a laugh in posting it.I mean if it was meant to be taken seriously that would suggest....

Clearly not you given your disingenuous or possibly just rather ill informed earlier post.

What do you think Thaksin and Nearly all Phua Thai MPs are if not Sino-Thai?????

Honestly where do you get this <deleted> from?

sent from my Wellcom A90+

It always amuses me when the usual suspects come up with this line, as if pointing out the Thaksin and the PTP leadership are mostly Chinese in ancestry was some form of amazing debating point.Don't these people have any understanding of how Thai society is made up or any intellectual curiosity ?There enough interesting books and articles on the subject.Most educated foreigners who have worked here understand this very well.Actually one could also point out several Sino Thai individuals in the redshirt leadership.

In a nutshell the vast majority of the Thai middle class is Sino Thai to some degree - whether very recent immigrants or of very long standing.That means they are found everywhere -the army, the police, business of course, the courts, the foreign service etc etc.Certainly most Thais in America would belong to this group:I doubt whether Thaksin has a natural expatriate fan base!The discrimination faced decades ago has almost disappeared but there is perhaps a cultural folk memory of hardship and self improvement common to most.In the PAD rallies we saw a kind of Chinese triumplaism laced with racist rhetoric against their darker skinned compatriots.Because this Sino Thai group has done very well in Thailand there is often a view that upcountry Thais have only themselves to blame for their poorer condition.

"This mob rule" - are you talking about the protests in the US? Are any of the protesters wearing yellow or claiming to be PAD? Can't ordinary people protest against the presence of a fugitive criminal without joining PAD?

Give us a break.They may not all be members of PAD but almost certainly they are all yellow shirt sympathisers and members of the (emigre) Sino-Thai middle class which has cast its lot in with the unelected elites, and regards the Thai majority as "uneducate" people.

Gee, who would have guessed that? BTW you forgot to use "oppressors" and "class enemies."

Clearly not you given your disingenuous or possibly just rather ill informed earlier post.

I'm not a Marxist and feel no need to use their jargon.

For more serious minded members there are some interesting clips of the recent meeting (Thitinan, Baker et al) at the FCCT in which the motivation of the Sino Thai middle class was discussed.If anybody can find them I'm sure they would be of general interest.

"This mob rule" - are you talking about the protests in the US? Are any of the protesters wearing yellow or claiming to be PAD? Can't ordinary people protest against the presence of a fugitive criminal without joining PAD?

Give us a break.They may not all be members of PAD but almost certainly they are all yellow shirt sympathisers and members of the (emigre) Sino-Thai middle class which has cast its lot in with the unelected elites, and regards the Thai majority as "uneducate" people.

The cartoonist, Khuad, in the Daily News, a rival to Thai Rath newspaper, has attacked Apisit nearly every day for the last 2 years. In spite of government follies, Yingluk's gaffes, the punchline is usually at Apisit's expense, even if he's alomost irrelevant to the issue at hand.

I wonder how much Khuad's salary is.

Well that evens out the balance a little given the biased press.Chris Baker at a recent FCCT meeting made the point that the Thai press, both English language and Thai, is overwhelmningly "yellow" and cooorespondingly biased against the government, PTP and the redshirts.He mentioned Matichon as an exception.Because of this he suggested there was a need to heavily discount much anti government/redshirt reporting.Incidentally he wasn't trying to make political points but thought the comment necessary in order to understand what is really going on beneath the surface.