jayboy

Nice try to deflect to all the others. Not easy to stick to the topic is it?

The renegade general Seh Daeng came back from a meeting with k. Thaksin and said the boss had decided to appoint him, Kwanchai and one or two other hardliners to replace all the UDD leaders who had gone soft and (gasp) even started talking with the government.

BTW you forgot to insert "unelected elite" somewhere in your post

Isn't the topic Seh Daeng?

I don't know about the evidence about the meeting with Thaksin but the sentiment of Seh Daeng you report simply confirms my supposition.

As a polite suggestion even though you might want to "get even" it always makes sense to think before posting.

Not too many people would refer to the likes of Jatuporn and Nuttawut as "conciliatory"....

but then that's true of almost all the Red Shirt Leadership involved.

Perhaps not (though perhaps more than you suggest), but there were other redshirt leaders who were looking for a compromise.There is plenty of evidence however that Seh Daeng was committed to a more radical even revolutionary line, and was highly resistant to Abhisit's overtures.His motivation is hard to decipher though my hunch would be that distinctive Thai nuttiness - aggressive action without thinking the consequences through - often found in the powerful here rather than any coherent ideological or political belief.Power seeking may have been part of it.

As at the time of his death he was telling the world that he had talked to Thaksin who had said he could no longer trust the red leaders and therefore had put him, Seh Daeng, in charge of the red shirts there is an extremely strong possibility that he was shot on the orders of the red shirt leaders.

If that is in fact the case then she is right it would be murder.

Not a shred of evidence to support this lie.He was shot by army snipers (in my opinion a regrettable but probably necessary step).

You see JB when you dont have to support one side or the other then you can think clearly and reason things out rather than just making definite unproven statements like you have just done.

If you care to read what I wrote again (what you called a lie) you will see I only put it forward as a possibility and I gave a reason for that possibility.

I will give you farther insight into my reasoning:

The Govt and Army could at any time have taken out any of the red leaders as they were mouthing off on their stage but did not this suggests that they did not want to.

At the time Seh Daeng was shot he was acting as a destabilising influnance on the red leadership which was already in some dissaray as they had just accepted an offer of an early election then withdrawen that acceptence presumably on orders. Then one of the red leaders had walked out.

This must have been an advantage to the Govt and Army so it would seem to me unlikely that the Govt and Army would want to remove someone who was stirring up the other red leaders.

Now I have given another reason for the possibility that I state could you please give the reason for your assertion.

I don't really engage with conspiracy theorists so I'll keep this short.Sorry to say (and based on your posting record) but it saves pointless discussion.In any event your wild assertion doesn't make logical sense - why would the army/government benefit from not ordering a hit if Seh Daeng was taking a different and more radiical view from the more conciliatory red leadership.The opposite would apply.

For the more rational, one point not yet made was that Seh Daeng was a marked man following his involvement in the death of Colonel Romklao.It's not acceptable for senior army officers to murder other senior officers.

As at the time of his death he was telling the world that he had talked to Thaksin who had said he could no longer trust the red leaders and therefore had put him, Seh Daeng, in charge of the red shirts there is an extremely strong possibility that he was shot on the orders of the red shirt leaders.

If that is in fact the case then she is right it would be murder.

Not a shred of evidence to support this lie.He was shot by army snipers (in my opinion a regrettable but probably necessary step).

[

"If you were familiar with the Thai corporate world you would already know this". Professionally I've been involved in IT and banking here in Thailand since 1994, obviously that means by now I (should) know that "in private sector particularly in the field of market research there is expertise".

Anyway, let's go back on topic with "Pheu Thai doesn't interfere in surveys" as no one in his right mind believes the results anyhow. Unless the numbers look nice and interesting enough to buy lottery tickets, of course

Being an IT nerd even in banking isn't really mainstream commerce.But the banks' senior managers would understand my point since they have responsibility for credit policies (and thus need to know whether major corporates can deliver on their stated objectives).

Any high level executive in say Unilever, Shell,Sony,CP etc will know exactly what I mean.

As to people being in their right mind, we will soon know for sure whether you are correct or completely off target.

Could you explain how you come to the 'expertise is undoubtedly present' and why you think corp. cons. surveys operate on a very advanced level and why that would be relevant given the lack of credible methodology?

I assume you have no experience in Thailand business/commerce since you would otherwise not ask this question.The quality of market research for major corporates here is first class.Thirty years ago it was very much in the hands of expatriates but there are now many excellent Thais in this field.My point which I wouldn't have thought too hard to grasp is that expertise exists in the commercial sector, using broadly the same methodology as polling organisations.While there is general scepticism about polling organisations, which I share to some extent, there are well qualified Thais who could quite easily bring political polling up to first world standards.The problem is of course money and the best people will almost always be best rewarded in the commercial sector.Incidentally I wouldn't write off ABAC etc completely.A healthy dose of scepticism is in order but the findings generally give some reasonable indications.And don't forget even reputable organisations sometimes get it spewctacularly wrong in the West, notably Gallup in the last US presidential election.

Jayboy old chap, you do not explain. You state in a manner to suggests you write down facts which obviously even morons should have known.

If the methodology used by polling stations is faulty and (Thai) experts in the commercial sector use the same methodology then even an advanced level of operation will not help. Just being seen to use tabletPCs to touch the answer given by the public is not sufficient.

BTW no need to point to oversea polls. It was sufficient when previously you wrote "My own take is that polling organisations in Thailand may lack the professionalism and credible methodology of some other countries."

PS I fail to see the relation between polls and my alleged lack of experience in Thai business/commerce, and certainly fail to see why with that experience I wouldn't ask you to explain your view. Don't you like open-minded discussions

It's hard work with you.My point was that in the private sector particularly in the field of market research there is expertise comparable with the best in the world.If you were familiar with the Thai corporate world you would already know this.The methodology used in commercial market research is relatively similar to that used in political polling where by general consensus standards in Thailand are not particularly high.

Could you explain how you come to the 'expertise is undoubtedly present' and why you think corp. cons. surveys operate on a very advanced level and why that would be relevant given the lack of credible methodology?

I assume you have no experience in Thailand business/commerce since you would otherwise not ask this question.The quality of market research for major corporates here is first class.Thirty years ago it was very much in the hands of expatriates but there are now many excellent Thais in this field.My point which I wouldn't have thought too hard to grasp is that expertise exists in the commercial sector, using broadly the same methodology as polling organisations.While there is general scepticism about polling organisations, which I share to some extent, there are well qualified Thais who could quite easily bring political polling up to first world standards.The problem is of course money and the best people will almost always be best rewarded in the commercial sector.Incidentally I wouldn't write off ABAC etc completely.A healthy dose of scepticism is in order but the findings generally give some reasonable indications.And don't forget even reputable organisations sometimes get it spewctacularly wrong in the West, notably Gallup in the last US presidential election.

Manit yesterday reiterated that he resigned so he could answer questions as to why Suan Dusit Poll had designed questionnaires for several surveys in the way that it had.

The already dubious nature and questionable validity of the various polling groups manages to sink even further.

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As a matter of interest have you ever (to save me checking) on this forum quoted a poll's findings? If you have, is your scepticism of polling results confined to findings which you find unacceptable?

My own take is that polling organisations in Thailand may lack the professionalism and credible methodology of some other countries.On the other hand the expertise is undoubtedly present because corporate consumer surveys operate here at a very advanced level (using much the same methodology as opinion polls).

I would have a further thought accepting hypothetically that political parties have the ability to affect poll findings.How does one know what the outcome would be? In other words if PTP "fixed" a poll to show a commanding victory, would this be an incentive or disincentive for voters to come out or stay at home? It all sounds a bit self defeating to me.

Basically the bangkok middle and upper class better get out and support Sukhumbhand or once again another fake .all promises,smiling peau thai deception on the gullible will slip into power as yingluck did.

Democrats have strong lower income group support in Bangkok.Without this Sukhumband could never have won.There simply aren't enough upper class and middle class voters.In any event PTP has very strong support from the aspiring lower middle class.But whoever wins must attract lower income

votes in large numbers.

Your recipe sounds very much like that of Governor Romney, ie depending on groups that cannot by themselves win the election thus allowing Obama to "slip by" using your rather foolish expression.

Oh dear .cant read? There still needs to be big turnout from middle and upper class and you have this "lower middle class"who you suggest will support the PTP placeman.one wonders what they aspire to supporting Pong.

The Romney comment displays who is ignorant and foolish.

Yes that mysterious lower middle class that puzzles you so much, the group that every aspiring Thai political party must win over to win power - and it's growing all the time.

I would thought the Romney analogy was absolutely on the money.You deny it but appear to lack the wit to explain why.

Basically the bangkok middle and upper class better get out and support Sukhumbhand or once again another fake .all promises,smiling peau thai deception on the gullible will slip into power as yingluck did.

Democrats have strong lower income group support in Bangkok.Without this Sukhumband could never have won.There simply aren't enough upper class and middle class voters.In any event PTP has very strong support from the aspiring lower middle class.But whoever wins must attract lower income

votes in large numbers.

Your recipe sounds very much like that of Governor Romney, ie depending on groups that cannot by themselves win the election thus allowing Obama to "slip by" using your rather foolish expression.

A bit unfair to have the PM standing next to the Pheu Thai candidate as in "this candidate has 'our' approval and full coopration for the good of all and you Bangkok people as well".

Don't be silly.It's entirely normal and expected that a PM should strongly back a party member campaigning for mayor in a nation's capital city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...london-17736705

But that party member only became a party member 1 day before running

The law, inconvenient sometimes, but the law. What can one do? Mind you, the Pheu Thai candidate is known to associate with known criminals and fugitives. At least jayboy wrote so (in a different topic), so it must be true. Now that, the known association that is, might not be common in good, old England. Some told me however, that lots of (business) people in the city (of London) are criminals. Maybe jayboy is on the right track after all

I have no idea what this is all about.Back to the point, it is entirely normal that the PM provides support to her party's mayoral candidate.

A bit unfair to have the PM standing next to the Pheu Thai candidate as in "this candidate has 'our' approval and full coopration for the good of all and you Bangkok people as well".

Don't be silly.It's entirely normal and expected that a PM should strongly back a party member campaigning for mayor in a nation's capital city.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17736705

Call me naive, but I thought the elections were about choosing a Bangkok governor, an official put on the spot for Bangkok only. That's not the same as choosing the Democrats party, or the Pheu thai party and surely not about Thaksin. Mind you, that's were the naivity might really start to kick in.

BTW the "PTP grip on power' sounds somewhat sinister.

PS a typo no doubt, no one would like to win a landslide, not even a colossal one

Obviously I was just making a slightly facetious point (though enough to get one or two of the usual suspects agitated) and don't seriously think that the mayoral result in Bangkok - whatever it is - translates across to how the capital would vote in a general election.Nevertheless if Sukhumband wins -and he might - Democrats will surely be rabbiting on about the turning of the tide etc.Your response reminds me of those who maintain the triumph of of Yingluck and the PTP at the last election had absolutely nothing to do with Thaksin, when clearly it had something to do with it and probably quite a lot.Bangkok has its own dynamics but the election of a man associated with Thaksin certainly suggests something even if not as much as his supporters or opponents maintain.

Why would the Democrats be "rabbiting on about the turning of the tide"? The Democrats "won" Bangkok in the national election. They've been in power in Bangkok in recent local elections.

IF they win, they will be celebrating that they've kept PTP at bay.

Just another way of saying the same thing.Do try to be more original.

Call me naive, but I thought the elections were about choosing a Bangkok governor, an official put on the spot for Bangkok only. That's not the same as choosing the Democrats party, or the Pheu thai party and surely not about Thaksin. Mind you, that's were the naivity might really start to kick in.

BTW the "PTP grip on power' sounds somewhat sinister.

PS a typo no doubt, no one would like to win a landslide, not even a colossal one

Obviously I was just making a slightly facetious point (though enough to get one or two of the usual suspects agitated) and don't seriously think that the mayoral result in Bangkok - whatever it is - translates across to how the capital would vote in a general election.Nevertheless if Sukhumband wins -and he might - Democrats will surely be rabbiting on about the turning of the tide etc.Your response reminds me of those who maintain the triumph of of Yingluck and the PTP at the last election had absolutely nothing to do with Thaksin, when clearly it had something to do with it and probably quite a lot.Bangkok has its own dynamics but the election of a man associated with Thaksin certainly suggests something even if not as much as his supporters or opponents maintain.

Chalerm: 'I won’t give interview for seven days if Pongsapat loses'

Another hollow, empty promise from the Bangkok Godfather of hollow, empty promises.

.

Well fortunately it will never happen because Bangkok is a Democrat stronghold.I mean if Bangkok actually elected a PTP mayor that would be tantamount a confirmation that the capital city has joined the country as a whole in consigning the Democrats (and the unelected elites behind them) to irrelevance and consolidating the PTP grip on power. - and that of course could never happen.

The country as a whole?? I recommend to look at the last elections results of the south, which isn't an unimportant part of Thailand.

Electorally not that important actually.Any party however that controls Bangkok, the NE and North will win a colossal landslide.But it will never happen because the people of Bangkok loathe Thaksin's party - so the usual suspects tell us endlessly.

Chalerm: 'I won’t give interview for seven days if Pongsapat loses'

Another hollow, empty promise from the Bangkok Godfather of hollow, empty promises.

.

Well fortunately it will never happen because Bangkok is a Democrat stronghold.I mean if Bangkok actually elected a PTP mayor that would be tantamount a confirmation that the capital city has joined the country as a whole in consigning the Democrats (and the unelected elites behind them) to irrelevance and consolidating the PTP grip on power. - and that of course could never happen.

John Burdett - Author - Bangkok 8 and it's sequels.

Should be a first read for anyone coming to or thinking of wanting to move to Thailand. Excellent.

http://www.john-burdett.com/bangkok-8/

Speaking as a loog-krueng who can relate to the character of the main protagonist in many ways, I would say that John Burdett is pretty dam_n good.

He is somewhat given to caricaturing situations so you do have to bear in mind that it is fiction, and the made up names and transliterations are dire (small details like that are important to me), but otherwise the John Burdett books are extremely accurate and well researched by his perception.

I completely agree.Burdett seems to me streets ahead of other farang authors using a Thailand background.

The other day when hauled in by police this guy was walking fine and wearing street clothes...

Now today we see him in a wheelchair and wearing what looks like hospital clothes....

Seems someone is trying to paint a picture here...

By the end of next week he'll be diagnosed as having dementia.

Either that or more likely claim he has a bad heart, is very old and likely to die soon. So hey, let's not put him in jail, bail him. It's what they do with everyone else it seems.

It worked for Samak.

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Even though some - you might remember them - were arguing endlessly and moronically that his liver cancer was an invented ailment to help him escape charges

"No one earns a privilege or stays above the law or regulations"

What he missed out was "except me, my father, my family, all my colleagues in Govt, the judiciary, the forces, anyone with lots of money and anyone with an old family name"

That's a succinct description of the corrupt old elites attitude that more enlightened Thais are struggling against

It seems that the corrupt new elites learn well.

Do you have a original thought in your head? Can't you see it's just childlike to constantly to repeat an observation.I've noticed this is a very common habit of yours as you trail around the forum endlessly - just schoolyard behaviour.

By far, my pick is Voranai Vanijaka over at the Bangkok Post. His column is every Wed and Sun. No one else comes close to his cogent insights in society and politics in the English language press.

5555555

Not a Voranai fan Jay?

I don't disagree with 2uniques summary below but despite this his perception is skewed.He is very much tied to the old regime and although while interesting and worth reading shouldn't be relied on.

By far, my pick is Voranai Vanijaka over at the Bangkok Post. His column is every Wed and Sun. No one else comes close to his cogent insights in society and politics in the English language press.

5555555

"No one earns a privilege or stays above the law or regulations"

What he missed out was "except me, my father, my family, all my colleagues in Govt, the judiciary, the forces, anyone with lots of money and anyone with an old family name"

That's a succinct description of the corrupt old elites attitude that more enlightened Thais are struggling against

The Khunpluem family is considering whether to seek a royal pardon for its patriarch Somchai, Culture Minister Sonthaya Kunplome, Somchai's son, said yesterday.

And so it begins.

Yes, and so it begins, and they think, regardless of convictions for murder and corruption, that he / that their family are entitled to some special dispensation of the appropriate laws, including the right to just walk away.

What's probably also in this picture is hundreds of lies told when needed to try to cover his whereabouts, in other words total disrespect for the law and the institutions which try to uphold the law.

Also total disrespect for the rights of the family of the murder vistim - their right to natural justice.

The day will come when the attitudes of society will put the brakes on people like this. But, unfortunately, not tomorrow.

Good post.Personally I would like to see a police investigation into whether Khun Sonthaya was aware of his father's presence.If he was that should mean dismissal and possibly imprisonment.

IMHO this post shows how far away from the reality that is Thailand you are.

Why? There's a difference between hoping for an outcome and expecting it will take place.