jayboy

There have been reports linking the red shirts to Maoist tactics. One of which, in the propaganda side of things, is to repeat a simple message constantly.

And what reports were those?

In any case if, on the subject of propaganda, regurgitating a fatuous and simpleminded message repeatedly, I don't think the Redshirts are the only or even the main offenders in Thailand.

Someone asks for references to other Uni's resistance to the pro-Thaksin red shirt "movement" ... it gets answered (directly!) and yet it isn't good enough? I would assume the reason is, that without the students that the "catalyst" factor is shown for what it really is .. a money factor.

If you believe the question can be addressed by a long list of stale press cuttings that's somewhat surprising.I assumed for all our differences you were comfortable with reasoned analysis.

Again there's a germ of an interesting discussion here (political attitudes of Thai students) and one on which I have an open mind.

The US fought a revolution, a civil war........

Is this the first step to real democracy for Thailand? I cannot think of many countries who have progressed to their current democracy without a blood letting. Hide your head in the sand. As posters on here, we farangs have our differences of opinion but we will have no effect on the outcome of this nation. All the signs are there, we have had warnings, what will happen will happen.

Australia did.

Before Thailand moves to a "real democracy", they need to find a leader that wants it.

If the red shirts get their leader (Thaksin) back in power, or if it is to be any of their current leaders, that won't be a change to a democracy that they say they want. That will just be more of the same shit that Thailand has had for 80 years.

The only way to get real democracy in Thailand, is to get rid of (or at least severely restrict) corruption. This won't come about by having the red shirt leaders leading the country.

Australia's not a good example because it inherited democracy lock, stock and barrel from the UK.

South Korea is a better example and what is more has tamed its army's political ambitions.

A catalyst is a catalyst (i.e it changes history), and doesn't become irrelevant after ten years any more than the French Revolution of the late eighteenth century has become irrelevant.

And then:

It's a matter for reasonable debate about 1932:some would say that the last forty years have seen the achievements of 1932 compromised or even reversed.

So to sum up: a catalyst or event doesn't become irrelevant. Unless jayboy has a political bias to claim it does.

I suppose you understand what you're saying here.I don't.

Another good post by Ricardo.

I disagree.

A catalyst is a catalyst (i.e it changes history), and doesn't become irrelevant after ten years any more than the French Revolution of the late eighteenth century has become irrelevant.It's a matter for reasonable debate about 1932:some would say that the last forty years have seen the achievements of 1932 compromised or even reversed.

A coup seems highly unlikely (so I disagree with Termad) because of the extreme unpopularity, corruption and incompetence of the military - hard to sell at home or abroad.The smarter representatives of the elite realised this and have sought to frustrate the will of the Thai people in other ways, notably the judicialisation of politics.On the other hand one never knows.Highly respected commentators such as Chris Baker tentatively raise the possibility that the fascist remnants of the PAD were encouraged by elements of the military to manafacture the crisis with Cambodia as a pretext for a military takeover.I doubt this but I do believe there are many in the elite who are terrified of an election result which would permit some kind of Thaksin re entry.

The unpredictable aspect is the sheer arrogance and stupidity of the military.Might they do something that provided "sutjai" but was very much against its self interest?One thinks in this context not only of a possible coup but also the absurd initiative to spend billions of Baht on Prem's pet project on strengthening the cavalry representation in the North East

Pacified? You don't pacify law-breakers and terrorists.

That's no way to talk about the Thai army.Sure they launched an illegal coup and then pardoned themselves.Ok they are thoroughly corrupt and incompetent but "terrorist" is too harsh a term.

The trouble is that the PAD movement has the support of a number of foreign "useful fools", as Lenin called them in the context of the horrors of the Soviet Union.One wouldn't compare the two in all respects of course but for some there is no crime, no lie, no abuse that wouldn't attract support, albeit guarded, if it could be lined up against the Redshirts and the arch demon Thaksin.In the case of the elite and their mainly Sino Thai middle class hangers on this is in some ways understandable (if not entirely rational because a fairer and more peaceful Thailand benefits everybody).However for some their objectivity is long gone having been consumed by hatred and in some cases fear.Thailand desperately needs a commentator with the honesty and vision of George Orwell, someone who despises Thaksin but can see and describe the repulsiveness of the elite forces ranged against the movement Thaksin started

It's more surprising that some foreigners go down this line.There is a case to be made against "rule by the mob", but it involves conceding some ground and understanding what is meant by enlightened self interest.Again with some foreigners I have been astonished to find out how appallingly ignorant many are of recent Thai history.

The trouble is that the UDD / red-shirt movement has the support of a number of foreign "useful fools". For some indeed there has been no crime except the current government, slaughter and massacring poor peaceful protesters. Sino-Thai k. Thaksin is innocent of any and all. For some objectivity has never ever been either a goal, or even a necessary objective. Thailand really needs people who can be objective, independent of any colour; who can see the repulsiveness of all who try to profit from the ignorant, poor masses.

There is no case to accept 'rule by the mob' unless you want to promote anarchy. It is indeed appalling how ignorant lots of people are about recent Thai history and all its finesses so totally different from Western way of thinking; and therefor automatically condemned as not understood.

Way to go, jayboy

Yes of course there are foreigners who have a naive and simplistic view of the Redshirts.

That doesn't mean there shouldn't be accountability for the deaths of civilians in the confrontation last year.

I thought I made it clear I detest mob rule.I don't really understand your last sentence.Are you saying that Thailand is "different" and normal ways of analysing political issues and differences don't apply here?

Probably because the airport was well over 2 years ago...before either of us were members.

Yeah, sure.

But in any case I was talking about the apologists for yellow reactionaries, repression, feudalism and military hegemony generally - not you personally.However if the cap fits...

Redshirt demonstrations are no doubt inconvenient but presumably (I'm guessing now) will wind down after the forthcoming elections assuming it's fairly conducted.

In that regard, equal action by the authorities should be equal and without the dreaded "double standards."

Didn't hear so much about equal treatment when the yellow mob and its quasi fascist leadership was occupying key Bangkok locations and airport.Still progress of sorts I suppose.

It was the PPP, who interestingly enough given your un-verified allegations, had one of their own, People Power Party MP Jumpot Bunyai, proposing to Parliament in August 2008 a draft amendment to Article 112 of the Criminal Code seeking to increase penalties for lese majeste offences.

Exactly.The PPP and its successors are no better than the Democrats in shameful abuse of the LM law.The sooner it is reformed (my preference) or off the statute books the better.

The agonising and frustrating aspect is that its abuse, leveraged up under Abhisit, has had the opposite effect of what the law is intended for.

Hmmm according to the board of the AoT it is FACT that the AoT guy on the ground closed it. That he was wrong to do so. The AoT would have been far better off having blamed the PAD, and thus being able to sue for damages, but they didn't.

I am not surprised that you are using this as another excuse to attack a poster though.

To identify dishonesty is not attacking another poster.Anyway we are used to your resorting to this argument when you are on weak ground.

I dare say there is an audience for your theory that AOT is to blame for the airport closure.You didn't mention - but Siripon did - the suggestion there was a Redshirt influence on the decision.

Suffice it to say the Thai courts, the Prime Minister, International Safety Authorities, the local and international media etc etc all take a different view.

JayBoy and Oberkommando >> Which PTP MP's are charged with LM? Which former PPP MP's are under investigation for it?

I'm not sure why you're asking me this.I neither know nor care.

One wonders what audience this kind of dishonesty is aimed at?

Indeed, it is tiresome.

I personally witnessed armed men closing off the roads to the airport before I flew out, and only later was the airport closed after yellow-shirts had stormed the main terminal building and built a perimeter around the whole area.

The trouble is that the PAD movement has the support of a number of foreign "useful fools", as Lenin called them in the context of the horrors of the Soviet Union.One wouldn't compare the two in all respects of course but for some there is no crime, no lie, no abuse that wouldn't attract support, albeit guarded, if it could be lined up against the Redshirts and the arch demon Thaksin.In the case of the elite and their mainly Sino Thai middle class hangers on this is in some ways understandable (if not entirely rational because a fairer and more peaceful Thailand benefits everybody).However for some their objectivity is long gone having been consumed by hatred and in some cases fear.Thailand desperately needs a commentator with the honesty and vision of George Orwell, someone who despises Thaksin but can see and describe the repulsiveness of the elite forces ranged against the movement Thaksin started

It's more surprising that some foreigners go down this line.There is a case to be made against "rule by the mob", but it involves conceding some ground and understanding what is meant by enlightened self interest.Again with some foreigners I have been astonished to find out how appallingly ignorant many are of recent Thai history.

What? and incur the wrath of some of antagonizing, petty bickerer passing through who will post that

So you aren't going to make any recommendations on appropriate books.It wasn't a wind up: I was genuinely interested to know what informed a different point of view.

I really don't expect many major cases going forward over the Swampy rally, since it was the AoT man on the ground there that panicked and closed the airport instead of going outside and meeting with the protestors and moving them to the parking structure or some place appropriate.

Here we go again.The tired old lie that the AOT was in fact the guilty party - not the fascist PAD mob.The only slightly surprising thing with this piece of dishonesty is that it is repeated despite having been long since exposed as spurious.

One wonders what audience this kind of dishonesty is aimed at?

You can always scroll up to read them, but perhaps we've already digressed enough with your own off-topic-ness.

Just a reminder.

"More pertinently any recommendations on the reading front? I would be incredibly impressed if you came up with a sensible response."

Go on, surprise me.

Oh ok, so your reply to my post had nothing to do with my post.

Thank you for clarifying.

No your post was boring and off topic, but not offensive.

Were the other 2 posted replies by other members to Oberkommando's post also boring and off topic?

Was Oberkommando's post also boring and off topic?

Can't remember but with respect this last post of yours is hardly riveting

More pertinently any recommendations on the reading front? I would be incredibly impressed if you came up with a sensible response.

Oh ok, so your reply to my post had nothing to do with my post.

Thank you for clarifying.

No your post was boring and off topic, but not offensive.

As to books I wonder whether you can recommend any recent works on Thai politics you have found helpful?

I agree about the disinformation regarding PTP MP's charged, but as usual, I won't go to the inflammatory length of your "ignorance and lies", that you are so fond of posting.

Can one find details of the PTP MP's that were supposed to have been charged in the book cited?

The thread, not particularly your contribution, has not been illuminating

My recommendation was for open minded intelligent people who enjoy reading and expanding their understanding.You should try it.

Will the military be assisting the Democrats by conducting operations to disrupt PTP campaigning and framing their MPs with LM charges as the Junta did in the previous election?

Interesting question, also a wee bit leading as in suggesting rather than proving. Opinion, perfectly ad- and per-missable.

I suppose if there were actually PTP MP's with those charges, it would be more believable.

And as the Red Shirts have repeatedly shown, there is no need to frame them. Their words frame themselves.

If anyone is as tired as I of the disinformation, ignorance and lies being peddled here, I would recommend "The Legitimacy Crisis in Thailand" edited by Marc Askew under the auspices of King Prajadhipok's Institute.It's available at Kinokuniya and Asia Books.

Sorry if you missed the substantive nature of specific incidents as a reflection of why the Red Shirts haven't made in-roads on attracting the university crowd. What you consider stale and irrelevant are actually illuminating to those unfamiliar with the long history of opposing views between Red Shirts and most universities.

If the discussion is why university students might not wish to participate with this so-called movement, it might be helpful to understand their resentment towards them could originate, for example, in the Reds bringing hand grenades to their hospital or initiating brawls on their campus.

I am sure there were several irritating examples of disturbances near or even on university campuses.I am dubious however whether these shaped or framed the views of most Thai students.

If you have any other relevant points please add them, but preferably without stale and indigestible cuttings.It's what you think that might be interesting.

Not to mention Thaksin's PPP crew completely missed the coming world economic failure and did absolutely nothing about it, even as K. Korn was writing Op'Eds about it say this is as pressing need to be adressed.

Thaksin the great economist said not a single word about it. When Korn became Minister he immediately started effectively working on minimizing the harm to the nation. He was more than a little successful in this salvage job. He pulled the national bacon from the fire.

Thaksinomics was a sham and a shameful failure, and this is clearly known by all but reddened true believers.

Thaksin benefited from the upswing of world recovery from the Asian meltdown, that he and Chavalit kicked off and helped make much worse, years earlier, but that he 'miraculously' profited on, as most others crashed and burned.

I don't think Thaksin knows much about economics, I think he took a lot of credit for what was the work of Somkid and others in his team. Why was 'Thaksinomics' a sham, though? I don't think there was much special about it, just basic 'third way' economics... the dual track strategy of trying to make big business succesful and then some measure of redistribution to the 'grassroots'. I don't think the current government is doing much different, are they? 'Thaksinomics' is still the order of the day, it's become the new concensus, practiced by all parties, whatever their rhetoric about 'sufficiency economy' etc. Mind you, I'm merely an interested layman when it comes to economics, so perhaps you could detail how 'Thaksinomics' was a failure and what the current goverment are doing different... ? And also explain how Chavalit 'kicked off' the 97 crisis plus what measures Korn took that PPP didn't... if you could... ?

I'm not disagreeing yet, just want to know your reasoning, because it seems to me that many Thais who aren't 'red' (indeed some who are very anti-red) have told me that they respected TRT's economic team and that that was the best thing about Thaksin's government (perhaps the only redeeming factor for some). I definitely agree that Thaksin benefited from a good deal of economic luck compared to the current government though.

You will wait I am afraid for a coherent reply until the mountains crumble into the sea.There are a number of voluble posters who back off once they sense they have encountered someone with real knowledge.A similar situation occurred when this poster was faced with a dialogue with Nick Nostitz.

Your characterization of "Thaksinomics" and its virtual adoption by the current government is of course correct.

One can surmise there's a number of reasons why the Red Shirts (and their origins) haven't really been a hit with universities.

Yes one can and there was quite an interesting discussion going on why this might be the case.

As far as I can see your long cut and paste post doesn't add anything of substance at all.Try and put your point of view across without resorting to stale and often irrelevant press cuttings.If you wish to participate it's helpful to know what you actually think.That's why Hammered for example is respected across political lines.

Except that, historically, those aspects never seemed to stop students before from joining in with organizations over government policies/social issues/etc.

Actually, university student populations have often been at the very forefront of these organizations. Certainly not so with the Red Shirts where their presence is very minimal.

Just a postscript to my comments on this subject.I don't think most reasonable people would disagree that the Red Shirt movement has failed to generate a student consensus behind it, a reflection perhaps on its lacklustre leadership (not so much on Thaksin himself).

At the same time there doesn't seem to be much student support for the old fashioned right wing gerontocracy - where feudalists, generals and other fat cats assume they have the right to speak for the Thai people.Equally there wasn't much student support for the yellowshirts (Let's face it a mob of Chinese grannies and young hoodlums isn't exactly "cool")

In other words a word of caution to reactionaries, don't make too many comfortable assumptions about Thai students.

the reason I think that, for the most part, young people and student groups have not gone in on the side of the poor oppressed masses is that they are capable of seeing the redshirt leadership for what it is AND have seen and heard the calls for violence from the reds.

I'm not sure about this at all.It's beyond doubt that Thai students are less politicised than in the 1970s.However my impression is that the student body is largely apolitical now.I haven't seen much evidence for strong political views one way or the other, concentrating rather on preparation for a competitive job market.This would reflect the situation in many Western countries.

On a related tack, and I'm thinking out loud here, I wonder if in a general sense students have the abhorrence of violence that most of us have.After all throughout history events have been shaped by young men who are prepared to go out on the streets and crack heads and risk having their own heads cracked.

The position of Thai students on political matters is an interesting subject.It would be good to have credible surveys available.

A final point I have never really thought the motivation for the Red Shirt movement is mainly about the "poor oppressed masses".It might have been 40 years ago but Thailand has developed (for the better) beyond recognition since then, and if it doesn't sound presumptuous coming from a foreigner I don't think there is much dastardly oppression going on.I think the main motivation is two fold - interference in politics by unelected elite figures and underlying that a profound sense of unfairness.