jayboy

But back to my friend Jayboy ..... I eagerly await the next attempted character assassination attempt ... that will be as equally edifying as his last couple ... 100% wrong and not addressing any point made.

Forget about me.I'm certainly not interested in you personally or your character.You have a hysterical and slightly absurd obsession with Thaksin (like Mr Dick with King Charles' head in David Copperfield) but it doesn't need me to point that out.

Consider further the quote from Tulsie in The Nation

"The public is not so eager to know who shot the clips or who paid him or her to do so. The bigger question on everybody's mind is whether the Constitution Court is still an institution we can trust."

That's the real point isn't it?

http://shop.lonelyplanet.com/thailand/thailand-travel-guide-13

This is one of the best guide books available at most good book shops.

It was when Joe Cummings was the editor.It's trashily written and researched now.Avoid or use Rough Guide.

The Yellow Shirts are a force to be reckoned with in Thailand's colour-coded political landscape, backed by the Bangkok-based elite and pledging allegiance to the monarchy.

When reporting on Yellow-shirts, why does the media always bring up this thing about them 'pledging allegiance to the monarchy'?

Probably because the other "colour-coded political landscape" has a number of their personnel who don't share the same feelings, Reds like Jakrapob, Giles, Darunee, Suchart to name a few. One only needs to look at yesterday's news for an example:

Red leader arrested for lese majeste

Typical.The post is about the yellow rallies on the Cambodian border and here you are making ignorant and snide remarks about red loyalties.Of course there are different points of view but Thailand isn't a totalitarian state, and diversity within the law is a positive thing.The loyalty of the vast majority of all Thais is beyond question.Most reasonable people believe that if there is any damage done to the highest institution that is the fault of people like Prem and the quasi fascist yellow movement.

Returning to the matter in hand I would recommend the Bangkok Post editorial today.It makes the point that even little Kasit is furious about the stupidity and sheer ignorance of the current yellow protest.Morons all.

Hmmm... not hysterical, not a visa runner, and not a teacher?

Well then, surely you must fall within jayboy's other favorite flame to pigeon-hole members who he disagrees with:

This and your subsequent comments suggest, along with your bar room style of discussion ...

(as well as the few semi educated saloon bar experts on this forum).

It's not a matter of pigeon holing people I disagree with.Actually I'm always pleased to be proved wrong when done with intelligence and authority.One can always learn something new or see a new perspective.

I do object however to uninformed and obsessive one note rants and unsurprisingly many seem half educated, as do many barflies, visa runners (even those who deny being one), sexpats and certain "teachers".

Moving to the question being considered the key point is made by Tulsahit (quoted in another thread on the forum) in today's Nation.

"The public is not so eager to know who shot the clips or who paid him or her to do so. The bigger question on everybody's mind is whether the Constitution Court is still an institution we can trust."

Yet for some it's just a question of Thaksin paying off some wretched clerk.Some of these deluded obsessives should retire to a dark room and ponder their stupidity.

No need for elaborate conspiracies ... Thaksin's bought people and attempted to buy people in the past. Occam's Razor suggests that he did that with Chat's aide. Remember during the recent redshirt insurrection in BKK when one of the leaders shot his mouth off about the cash he had in the bank?

In the minds of hysterical foreigners with nothing on their minds but the next visa run, perhaps.

Looking back over Thaksin's past behavior to destroy the checks and balances needed in a Democracy; is it unreasonable to think that he simply paid and paid well to get Pasit to set up a scandal? It doesn't matter if the scandal is real or imagined to Thaksin and his cronies if he can spin it right.

I do not believe that a coup is inevitable but I do think that it may be a goal for Thaksin. Impugning the courts here certainly work to Thaksin's favor, even though he was found guilty on clear and damning evidence by a totally different court. Even with the bakery scandal where a bribe was rejected by the court administration ... even with all of this, if he can make it look as if the High Court is not trustworthy then he can attempt to salvage his image internationally.

IMHO --- the courts are taking the right action. Step up, Deny the charges, prove the guilt of someone else. If they can show that Jatuporn was part of a conspiracy to impugn the courts it will not go well against him. If Parliament impeaches him then his parliamentary immunity evaporates immediately.

In the pay of Thaksin ! You couldn't make it up.

'rubl' timestamp='1288609842' post='3995144']

The joke is that even Democrat pols in the tradition of Abhisit and Korn privately acknowledge their distaste in having to hook up with this scumbag

I guess they told you so, in private ?

I said in the tradition of Abhisit/Korn, not them personally.I have spoken to a Democrat, a strong supporter of the latter, who did say -and I quote - Suthep was something of a cross to bear

Now I understand why a month ago K. Jatuporn said to have clips and to show them in a few weeks time. Probably k. Pasit has been so busy taping that our dear MP needs time to watch it all and select only the juicy bits which he likes. Maybe a search warrant is required to find a few more tapes?

At least this distracts nicely from the Nonthaburi 'bomb making 101' failure, the PTP MP with his qualified secretary who is a good friend of his daughter, some ChiangMai business man and the transfer of money to a fugitive. Well done PTP. If only k. Chalerm wouldn't have warned for violent protests all would be red right.

Absolutely right in terms of priorities.Lets demonise the whistle blower and ignore the 800 kilo gorilla.

BANGKOK: -- Judges of the Constitution Court yesterday resolved to take legal action against people....

[/b]

So the judges have something to hide.....as long as you are not with Ahbisit government you are enemy of the state..

I'd be careful about impugning the judges in Thailand if I were you. Several PTP people may find themselves in jail for quite awhile after their parliamentary immunity is no longer in place.

Here we go again.This member has been warned in the past not to goad members into querying the decisions of the Thai courts - which everyone knows are famous the world over from corruption, political interference and "direction" from above

Trying to resurrect a long dead scandal for current gain, eh?

The opposition has been trying to spin this one for nearly 20 years.

Suthep does something that was good, but the typical corruption of other people finds ways to get through loopholes. Suthep didn't personally hand out the titles. It was the usual ministry and influential persons shenanigans.

If you want to say Suthep wasn't successful in preventing this from happening I'll buy that, but they have tried to say for nearly 20 years that he directed this and not a shred of actual proof has ever been shown, just innuendo and accusations. But it keeps popping up like a macabre jack in the box.

So in Animatic's bizarro world Suthep is Mr Clean, not an old fashioned corrupt Southern Democratic politician with a long trail of sleaze and corruption.

The joke is that even Democrat pols in the tradition of Abhisit and Korn privately acknowledge their distaste in having to hook up with this scumbag

Is Abhisit a British Citizen? Maybe Cammie is coming to collect income tax?

Nah the tories arent too interested in collecting tax off the rich, the well connected and the corporations and companies.

Not sure what this means - thought the coalition government was in trouble for removing benefits for the well off, also for imposing bank levy which was resisted by New Labour.

However there is a certain amount amusement to be derived from this Cameron visit a propos the reactions of the local British visa running/ bar fly contingent.The distaste for the British lower and lower middle class (the predominant social group here in Thailand among the Brit group I mentioned)) for anyone deemed posh or a toff is scarcely to be underestimated.Cameron therefore is a key hate figure.However they can't really compute how he could be the honoured guest of Abhisit (whom they generally admire), scourge of the Reds and the dark lord Thaksin.Doesn't compute.Doesn't compute.

What this shows is the ludicrous class sensitivity of the British.Every Brit knows that Thatcher's father was a grocer from Grantham.Americans generally neither know nor care what Reagan's father did for a living.

I'm just surprised PTP got nearly 22,000 votes there

Me too. These people who voted for PTP must have something wrong with their minds to want to elect criminal thugs (or those associated with such people) to lead them.

No you have got mixed up.The criminal thug Suthep is a member of the Democrat Party.

One can only hope that this result is a general indication that the Red Shirt Madness is over!

Don't be a tit.It's Surat Thani, a corrupt old style Democrat seat.I'm just surprised PTP got nearly 22,000 votes there

By all means put on a brave face if you must,

Fact is the Red Shirts and Supporters have little or no chance of winning any future National Election!

The point (not a fact by the way) in your second paragraph is a reasonable one for discussion.My point is that the result in Surat Thani doesn't provide many clues.

One can only hope that this result is a general indication that the Red Shirt Madness is over!

Don't be a tit.It's Surat Thani, a corrupt old style Democrat seat.I'm just surprised PTP got nearly 22,000 votes there

If you really don't understand what a "matter of record" means, I doubt whether I can help you.

If I said it's a matter of record that most rural supporters of the Red movement are from the North and North-East, it doesn't have to be "stated" in some document.It probably is but that's not the point.

OK. Every second news report points out where most red shirt supporters come from.

Can you please point me to anywhere that it states what the ethnic make up of the PAD is?

I suggest you refer to the Thai scholar Michael Nelson, lately of Chula who has written on this subject.It's not actually a very controversial subject (remember the sons of China banners at the PAD rallies) so I have no real idea why you are agonising about it.Bangkok is to a significant degree a Chinese city with the majority of long term residents of Chinese or mixed Chinese ancestry.All would rightly describe themselves as "Thai" but the higher up the social and income scale (the PAD core grouping) the more Chinese they become.

<snip>

The ethnic make up of the PAD movement and leadership is a matter of record.Why is it "racist" to point the obvious out?

<snip>

Where is the ethnic make up of the PAD movement and leadership stated as a matter of record.?

Give me strength.It's like teaching physics to a hamster.

Come on. You state it's a matter of record. Where?

If you really don't understand what a "matter of record" means, I doubt whether I can help you.

If I said it's a matter of record that most rural supporters of the Red movement are from the North and North-East, it doesn't have to be "stated" in some document.It probably is but that's not the point.

<snip>

The ethnic make up of the PAD movement and leadership is a matter of record.Why is it "racist" to point the obvious out?

<snip>

Where is the ethnic make up of the PAD movement and leadership stated as a matter of record.?

Give me strength.It's like teaching physics to a hamster.

You seem to be saying that the majority of Bangkok residents are Chinese Tha1. This is not correct. Further I just called one of my work colleagues who attended a large number of the early PAD rallies, she quickly and strongly disagreed with the suggestion that the majoriy of PAD attendees were Chinese Thai.

Yes and if you would like me to be more precise I would maintain that a majority of middle class Bangkok was of Chinese or mixed Thai-Chinese ancestry.

The quick response of your PAD friend made me laugh because it's so typical of the Sino-Thai response when asked if they are Chinese.Most astute foreigners know about this, obviously not you.

And incidentally over much in your post there can be a reasonable discussion, but it is a cast iron fact that most PAD supporters were Sino-Thai, along with their criminal and fascist leadership.

Finally one thing needs to be made clear that at the beginning at least there were many decent PAD camp followers disgusted by Thaksin's greed and authoritarianism.I would never mock their motives but only the gullible and foolish (as well of course as the hyper nationalists, fascists, racists) stayed with the movement over the long term.

Jayboy is amazing ....!

He states with 100% certitude that "most PAD supporters were Sino-Thai, along with their criminal and fascist leadership."

Hmmmm Thaksin? Sino-Thai? His buddies? Mostly the same. The cannon fodder he puts out on the street ... NOT Sino-Thai! I remember Thaksin saying when the first bullet was fired he would be right there with his followers facing down the government and the army. In fact none of the red leadership trotted out to the front lines. When one did out by Don Mueang, he quickly ran and hid in a McDonalds.

The PAD leadership certainly aren't angels, but they aren't the cowards that you see with the Reds. They were walking out front. They turned themselves in when arrest warrants were issued (granted they didn't all go at once! but they all went! and it was the top couple that went first!)

Finally, Jayboy's (racist?) claims that they were ALL Sino-Thai (or worse yet MIXED Sino-Thai!) flies in the face of reality just from people I personally know who were and some who still are involved with the PAD.

Jayboy likes to talk in absolutes about large numbers of people. I prefer to talk in absolutes ONLY about individuals. After that it is .... well ... what was the word he used? Racist?

I don't understand this post.Was it composed under the influence? No problem with that (we've all been there on a Saturday night) but just trying to understand why so incoherent.

Anyway where to begin.Yes Thaksin is obviously of Chinese ethnicity.So what.

Why are you talking about cowardice? A bad person can be brave:a good person can be fearful.What's it got to do with the price of eggs?

The ethnic make up of the PAD movement and leadership is a matter of record.Why is it "racist" to point the obvious out?

If you are intellectually unable to make the transition from the empirical to drawing considered judgements, I can't be of help.Perhaps you should concentrate on what you do best - making hysterical rants about foreign journalists who point out home truths.

This forum is full of people who were here at the time. Many others have read his accounts and felt them biased, the same of which could be said for reports from a number of the other reporters present.

Any mainstream international reporters you care to name that weren't biased?

I think Anasuya Sanyal's reports for Channel News Asia were and continue to be less biased and more accurate than most.

I know her work and agree with you.However some of Anasuya's material would have had the usual suspects screaming about bias if Channel News Asia had a higher profile.She fully understood and spoke about the validity of the Red cause and the selfishness and corruption of the forces ranged against them.(actually so did Al Jazeera).I think much of the controversy about bias is at the micro level, i.e exactly what went on on the streets of Bangkok rather than the deep underlying issues.That is understandable.

My own view is that on the whole the BBC and CNN did a reasonable job notwithstanding the views of that silly cow who wrote the much circulated letter lambasting CNN and Dan Rivers which was so revealingly taken up by the myopic Bangkok middle class on Facebook.

This forum is full of people who were here at the time. Many others have read his accounts and felt them biased, the same of which could be said for reports from a number of the other reporters present.

Any mainstream international reporters you care to name that weren't biased?

You seem to be saying that the majority of Bangkok residents are Chinese Tha1. This is not correct. Further I just called one of my work colleagues who attended a large number of the early PAD rallies, she quickly and strongly disagreed with the suggestion that the majoriy of PAD attendees were Chinese Thai.

Yes and if you would like me to be more precise I would maintain that a majority of middle class Bangkok was of Chinese or mixed Thai-Chinese ancestry.

The quick response of your PAD friend made me laugh because it's so typical of the Sino-Thai response when asked if they are Chinese.Most astute foreigners know about this, obviously not you.

And incidentally over much in your post there can be a reasonable discussion, but it is a cast iron fact that most PAD supporters were Sino-Thai, along with their criminal and fascist leadership.

Finally one thing needs to be made clear that at the beginning at least there were many decent PAD camp followers disgusted by Thaksin's greed and authoritarianism.I would never mock their motives but only the gullible and foolish (as well of course as the hyper nationalists, fascists, racists) stayed with the movement over the long term.

Lots of deliberate errors and untruths your post:

- PAD are not 100% Thai Chinese, not all all, PAD is a mixed as any other group

- It's not PAD policy to deny Essan people the vote

- "The yellow have been trying to stir up troube for a couple of years": why shouldn't they object to what they see as the possibility of a temple being lost to another country. In fact every country needs various groups who stand up and object to various things.

- Chinese Thai...and as such .... detest and despise Isarn people. This is a stupid and untrue comment. In reality there are many Chines Thai who are quite poor and Chinese Thai are not necessarily all in Bangkok. On the other side of the coin there are rich Thai people who are from Kmer heredity who live all over Isarn and in Bangkok. And it's worth adding that you can many Thai (Kmer) people in Isarn who are rich (including some who are village Kumnans, and including some who gained their wealth through dubious means) who employ their fellow local Thais as maids and drivers etc., etc., and treat them very poorly; young maids who are often raped and often groped by the teenage sons of the rich employer etc., and nothing said to the sons by their parents.

The trouble is that your response is not really honest.

1.Most PAD supporters are of Chinese ethnic origin.One could equally argue that this simply reflects middle class Bangkok demographics.

2.It was definitely part of the PAD platform to introduce a mechanism under which the rural Thai's vote counted less than an "educated" urban dweller.Later there was the back pedalling and the predictable "it was only for discussion" excuse.

3.There is a strain of contempt on the part of some urban ethnic Chinese Thais for the rural majority.The disgusting racist language used on PAD platforms was evidence of this.More evidence was more recently provided on social networking sites earlier this year.

It would be absurd to label all or even most Thais of Chinese origin with the PAD fascist label but the dishonesty or possibly wilful ignorance of your post needs to be skewered.

To help us all understand each others' viewpoints, I think it would be helpful at this point if the more vociferous amongst us declared exactly how the political struggles of this year have affected them in real terms.

For example, I know that some anti-red obsessives consider themselves to have either directly taken losses in monetary terms due to the violence, or have witnessed or been affected (or know some who has been affected) physically by the violence.

Personally, neither I nor anyone I know has been affected adversely in any way by the turmoil, so I find it easy to look for balance in arguments such as these. However, if either myself or someone I know had been effected badly by these events maybe I would find it harder to accommodate more balanced views.

I know part of the arguments may be based on 'what if the red shirts get in power', but for the sake of this discussion I think it helpful if we don't get caught up in conjecture about possible future events.

I'm not trying to diminish the integrity of any individual's grievances one way or the other, but I would like to know which of the regular contributors come to this topic without a personal axe to grind and which don't.

So in the interests of maintaining a constructive debate (if indeed it was constructive up till now), and adhering to the highest standards of public accountability, how about everyone declaring their vested interests?

Cheers.

Good question. Firstly how the protests have affected me personally this year:

Personally: My wife had booked into a clinic at Ratchaprasong a few weeks before the red shirts invaded, deposits all paid and preperation (injects, pills) had begun. Red shirts moved in a week or so beforehand giving us a 2km walk from clinic to transportation at Lumpini Park (I wrote about one walk to the clinic here). Not desirable but already financially committed. Anyhow, procedure failed - could of been for any number of reasons but obviously the walk and raised anxiety didn't help. Financially and emotionally draining.

Less personally but still significant: sis-in-law in labour and had trouble getting through the red barricade into Chula hospital where they had been booked in - this was around the same time the red shirts stormed the place. Ultimately resulted in turning around and going to Ramathibodi instead. Sis-in-law ended up giving birth in the car on the way there. He's fine now - hardly see him upset, in fact.

Anecdotal but my former place of employment is on Chid Lom which has been providing a 24/7 e-related service since 1998. Despite the infrastructure woes in Thailand it had still mostly managed to achieve this until the end of the rally when all communications lines in the area were cut - was then out for three days. Most traffic was relocated outside Thailand, however there's still downtime and resulting loss in business and customer confidence to consider.

I have lived in Thailand since 2001, married for the past three years. While Thailand has some maturity to go through politically I consider the current administration the (much) lesser evil.

In my 13 years of communicating via the 'net I have never seen the level of scummy tactics I've observed on this thread by a certain forum user, so am therefore hesitant to divulge any further personal details now publicly. There's always the PM button however...

Irritating for you no doubt, but in the overall scheme of things quite irrelevant.Get some perspective.

The Tory spokesman said the other day Dave has never met Mark.

http://www.dailymail...o=feeds-newsxml

Since Cameron is in his early 40’s and Abhisit is in his mid-40’s, it is presumably highly unlikely that they were bosom pals at Eton in any event. Your best mates at school tend to be your immediate contemporaries.

Anyway, nice to hear that Cameron may be living it up in LOS this Christmas while countless millions of his (and my) fellow countrymen will be consigned to a wretchedly miserable (and freezing) festive season thanks to the draconian spending cuts announced by his government last week. So much for all that “we’re all in this together” crap which they have been spouting.

You are right.Abhisit and Cameron are not contemporaries and don't know each other, but clearly there is a connection - both Old Etonians , Oxford graduates , highly intelligent (both got first class honours), political leaders and (dare I say it on this blue collar forum) well born and charming (Abhisit less so perhaps but he's better looking).It's entirely reasonable for Abhisit to extend an invitation - and let's face it this is a wonderful country in which to holiday.

However there can be nothing but contempt for the comments of this poster on the spending cuts in the UK.One can argue about timing but the reality is that the cuts themselves are beyond dispute.After the dishonest incompetent Labour government, Cameron has no choice but to cut deep so that the debt incurred so fecklessly is not passed on to our grandchildren.And if a large number of knuckle dragging welfare addicts (and their kindred proletarian spirits in Thailand) don't like it, I personally couldn't give a toss.

[quote name=chuang

' timestamp='1288252361' post='3985932]

BANGKOK: -- Judges of the Constitution Court yesterday resolved to take legal action against people....

[/b]

So the judges have something to hide.....as long as you are not with Ahbisit government you are enemy of the state..

The judges have nothing to hide. They will presenting their decision with detailed reasoning towards the end of the year. Their may even be dissenting views, as has happened in recent Constitution court cases.

I agree totally and resent the implication that the Thai Courts are subject to political direction, especially from members of an unelected elite.This has never been the case nor has there ever been any instance of corruption in the courts.The neutrality and sea green incorruptibility of thr Thai courts is known and admired round the world.I particularly have scorn for those who maintain the Democrats route to power was ventriloquised through illegal coups, military imposed constitutions and corrupt deals with scumbag politicians.Anyone who believes any of this is naive and plain wrong headed.These people even believe that judges have been summoned specifically to come to positions that contradict the will of the Thai people.Shame on them.Most of these critics are in the pay of Thaksin anyway.