jayboy
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Posts posted by jayboy
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"It's appalling that any country would resort to using cluster munitions after the international community banned them," added CMC director Laura Cheeseman.
It's interesting which countries have (or more importantly have not) ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions.
Ofcourse the US haven't ratified. Do they ever ratify an international convention? Also, Australia is not on the list. Of SEA countries, Laos is the only country to have ratified it.
Rather more important than those who have ratified the Convention on Cluster Munitions is those who have used them
Like the Americans and the British...
with the UK ratifying the convention just last year
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You have already been informed the issue is not about who has signed the Convention.The issue is who has been lying through their teeth.
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From beginning to end, the Drug War was Thaksin's "baby"
I agree with you and it was the worst of his crimes.
Care to explain why he was never charged and instead was pursued with relatively trivial offences (in comparison)?
It would be wonderful to receive an honest reply on this.
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Thai air force personnel load food and relief supplies for the heavy floods in south Thailand at the military airport in Bangkok March 30, 2011. Severe flooding and mudslides in southern Thailand have killed 21 people, stranded thousands of tourists and threatened to delay shipments of rubber in the world's largest rubber-producing country, authorities said on Wednesday.
Reuters
Thai navy officers evacuated tourists stranded on Koh Tao island by helicopter following heavy storms and rain hit southern part of the country in Surat Thani province, Thailand Wednesday, March 30, 2011.
AP
Tourists are evacuated with the help of the Thai Navy from Koh Tao Island after heavy storms in Surat Thani, south of Bangkok March 30, 2011.
Reuters
Foreign tourists evacuated from flooded Koh Tao Island arrives at the Royal Thai Navy base in Sattahip, Chonburi province, east of Bangkok March 31, 2011. Severe flooding and mudslides in southern Thailand have killed 16 people, cut off land and air transportations and delayed shipments of at least 50,000 tonnes of rubber in the world's largest rubber-producing country, authorities said on Thursday. Thailand's navy sent four vessels including an amphibious landing craft with on-board helicopters to the region to deliver supplies and rescue tourists and villagers in areas severely hit.
Reuters
[A soldier carries an old woman to a helicopter to be moved from her district, which was damaged by a flash flood, in Nakhon Si Thammarat province, south of Bangkok April 2, 2011.
Reuters
Lets indeed look at the whole picture
It's not the full picture.It's a very partial picture.Everybody welcomes the rescue capability of the Thai armed forces but it's a tiny part of what they are about.
In the context of the thread subject matter, I call it cheap propaganda from someone who has lost the argument on all other grounds - ie the corruption, the interference in politics, the business and media interests, the incompetence and the civilian massacres at Tak Bai and elsewhere.
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Most Thai people seem to learn English to communicate with Asians. It may be that learning from other Asian English speakers is a better alternative although I do once remember talking to a government minister in the first Thaksin government and he told me that the country needed to improve the English of the lower classes so they could go and be maids in strange and foreign lands. He also was rather upset that Filipino poor ones were better at doing this as they had better English and he could even quote the figures of money remitted to the Philippines that was then spent in locally owned businesses thereby enriching the local elite.
Sometimes those tasked with making decisions on what is best for the country have strange ideas and motivations
I wonder what you thought of the minister's standard of English.I am always amazed by the poor English proficiency of many Thais who have been educated overseas.Graduates of the second tier American state universities are the worst possibly because they tended to congregate mainly with other Thais and perhaps because of the easy peasy multiple choice examination system.Abhisit and Korn are special cases with their perfect (though not quite accent free) English because they went to British secondary schools as well as universities.Thaksin was quite awful at English though he worked on it.
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The supreme commander confirmed that people can rest assured that the military has no involvement in the national politics
That must have changed overnight then.
He knows it is a lie.We know it is a lie.The Thai People knows it is a lie.
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While I don't support the PAD, I certainly understand and support their position that Thai politics is at such a diseased state that it doesn't deserve anyone's vote.
If you take that position you are in agreement with one of the fundamental beliefs of the PAD leadership.... so no nonsense please about not supporting the PAD
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No need to go to Washington Square since Suzanka moved to Tong Lor, and the beer is just as good in other irish bars.
I'm fairly sure this is an area in which you are vastly more knowledgeable than I.
Once again, jayboy makes a number of posts without making any statement relevant to the thread topic. In this case, he also illustrates a favoured technique of his: introduce a topic (Washington Square in this case), wait until some one comments on that topic, and then flame them for doing so. All rather tedious. I can't wait for Pasuk & Baker to come out with a new book to keep him occupied, if only for the length of time it takes to colour the pictures in. Although, given his ability to stay within the lines of discussion here, that won't take long.
Personally, I couldn't care less if the navy gets these submarines or not. They have their reasons for requesting them; whether strategic, show off value, personal monetary gain, or any combination of these. The government will have its reasons for approving / not approving them; whether for face (see, we can stand up to the military), belief in their strategic value, pay back of a favour, show off value, personal monetary gain, or any combination of these. I do see one good outcome of them even being brought up though. They have annoyed the jumped up little Pol Potter next door, and his supporters on this forum.
I'm not sure about the last sentence but I thought your post very amusing.Some well directed hits but without malice.I certainly accept I can be a bit of a Pasuk and Baker bore!
My only slight reservation is that you seem to confuse flaming with banter.The two are different but I agree many don't seem to know the difference
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No need to go to Washington Square since Suzanka moved to Tong Lor, and the beer is just as good in other irish bars.
I'm fairly sure this is an area in which you are vastly more knowledgeable than I.
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I also happen to know there are retired navy submarine professionals on this forum, and some may pipe in as such, or not stating their credentials, but I doubt I will be contradicted by any of them.
You mean there are some members of the forum that are not retired navy submarine professionals?
I have to admit it is quite amusing to observe the struggle inside the heads of some who (a) know that the proposed purchase of these useless old German subs is an expensive joke and (
an unwillingness to criticise any decision - however corrupt or stupid - of the Thai military.It explains much of the careful treading on eggshells language used in this thread.Not at all.
'Question one is an irrelevancy.
Commentary two about what goes on in the heads of some is against forum rules, actually, and also equally irrelevant.
Stating the facts about the usefulness of the subs, or their potential usages, is neither pro nor con purchase, just pointing out their continued viability and usefulness in the face of uniformed commentaries to the contrary.
And has nothing to do with the appropriateness of Thailand specifically buying them at this time. Should Thailand buy them, maybe not, I can see better things to spend the money on. Could they get good use out of them if purchased yes. Will they? Who knows,
You should continue this discussion over a beer at Washington Square where foreign oldsters with too much time on their hands discuss such matters at interminable length.
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I also happen to know there are retired navy submarine professionals on this forum, and some may pipe in as such, or not stating their credentials, but I doubt I am will be contradicted by any of them.
You mean there are some members of the forum that are not retired navy submarine professionals?
I have to admit it is quite amusing to observe the struggle inside the heads of some who (a) know that the proposed purchase of these useless old German subs is an expensive joke and (
an unwillingness to criticise any decision - however corrupt or stupid - of the Thai military.It explains much of the careful treading on eggshells language used in this thread. -
The question is: why do Thaksins enemies refuse to investigate?
Perhaps someone else is to blame that currently has allot of power.
The only pertinent question in this depressingly low quality thread.I have rarely seen so much misinformation and half truths.
I'm not sure it's right however to pin the blame on any individual or even group of individuals.The drugs war policy, at least initially until its flaws were made manifest, had broad elite support and for that matter popular support.Even now few Thais regard the drugs war with the distaste it deserves
Among some naive foreigners there was an attempt to "pursue" Thaksin for this,being the worst of his crimes.There is no dodging Thaksin's culpability here notwithstanding the policy's popularity.There was never any attempt however by the junta or successive governments to pursue him on these charges, notwithstanding there was a reasonable chance foreign governments would have extradited him.They were left with the relatively trivial charges which most foreign governments correctly saw as politically motivated.
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Hmm Chuan One fell in 95 not 90, Chuan 2 in 2001. Again cite a source where Suthep was proven to have given away land in Phuket to wealthy families. You are correct that none of it is obscure other than proof. It REALLY isn't obscure as to the dates of Chuan Leekpai's administrations
Being accused of corruption is not the same thing as having it proven I will accept a conviction as evidence of proof.edit for typo
You can concentrate on my typo (for which I apologise) or you can deal with the issue.
What you will "accept as proof" of Suthep's corruption is of course neither here nor there.There is much corruption in Thailand which comes nowhere near the courts
Most Thais know the score on Suthep's corrupt background.His political enemies are explicit:his political friends will smile ruefully.None deny his guilt.
A typo is hitting 4 r t or 6 instead of 5,
Hitting 0 instead just means you had no idea what was the correct year, and just threw out something to continue the flame.
Thanks for that useful contribution.
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Now now - I don't think it's fair to say "the courts are riddled with corruption" - they're probably the least corrupt part of the Thai public sector, although I would understand it if one didn't put too much value in that.
I'm not sure the judicial system can be included as part of the public sector.
The judicial system has been recognised as quite corrupt for many decades.Bribes are not usually paid directly to judges but are canvassed by officials and distributed to judges, police and civil servants.A major problem is the length of legal proceedings which itself encourages corruption for expeditious process.It's only fair to note that parts of the judicial system work quite well, and that there are many dedicated honest officials.In recent years it is sometimes said the judicial system has been directed to enforce an elite agenda, the so called judicialisation of Thai politics after general election results deemed to be unsatisfactory.That is of course a matter on which I could not possibly comment.
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Jayboy, regardless of what you may "think" that I have done. I have always said that Suthep is not my fave! I have said he "scares me" and many other things. The simple truth is I don't care what you think of me or how I post. My comments on "many" Thais was a refutation of your claim as to how "most" Thais think
Corruption cases do hit the Thai courts fairly regularly over the years and quite often the person brought up on charges flees the country Thaksin was nailed for misuse of power in a clear-cut case. (The fastest and easiest case to prove against him, before they started going after the other cases. Why? Maybe because people charged with corruption usually flee the country before sentencing?) I've been around long enough To get the obvious out of the way its just an internet forum.One would have to be bit disturbed to "care" what people say at an individual level.
I'm not sure what the rest of your post is getting at with relation to Suthep.Can it be summarised that although you are no fan nobody should be judged guilty unless found so in a court of law? Would be a sound thesis in Guildford or similar.In Thailand it's fatuous.
In any event what happens when the courts of law are themselves riddled with corruption?
On one point you are simply wrong, namely that in Thailand those accused of corruption tend to flee the country.
Note --- I said "charged" with corruption not accused of it. Perhaps it is in the simple meanings of words that trip you up? Very few cases make it to court and often those charged, flee.
Shinawatra, Saxena (not an exact fit but all tied up with politicians), Vatana, ... I am sure someone else could come up with a more exhaustive list
Okay that's a perfectly fair point specifically the charged/accused distinction.However as so few are charged let alone making it to court I'm not sure statistically one can read much into it.
Still don't understand your really message on that paragon Suthep..first you defend him, then you don't like him.Is it a bit like your PAD allegiance i.e accept those bits of its platform when it suits you and then back away when it seems its being marginalised.
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Jayboy, regardless of what you may "think" that I have done. I have always said that Suthep is not my fave! I have said he "scares me" and many other things. The simple truth is I don't care what you think of me or how I post. My comments on "many" Thais was a refutation of your claim as to how "most" Thais think
Corruption cases do hit the Thai courts fairly regularly over the years and quite often the person brought up on charges flees the country Thaksin was nailed for misuse of power in a clear-cut case. (The fastest and easiest case to prove against him, before they started going after the other cases. Why? Maybe because people charged with corruption usually flee the country before sentencing?) I've been around long enough To get the obvious out of the way its just an internet forum.One would have to be bit disturbed to "care" what people say at an individual level.
I'm not sure what the rest of your post is getting at with relation to Suthep.Can it be summarised that although you are no fan nobody should be judged guilty unless found so in a court of law? Would be a sound thesis in Guildford or similar.In Thailand it's fatuous.
In any event what happens when the courts of law are themselves riddled with corruption?
On one point you are simply wrong, namely that in Thailand those accused of corruption tend to flee the country.
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I am glad you know how "most Thais" think! Suthep is far from being a fave of mine. I didn't focus on a typo, I focussed on facts that disproved your previous statement. Proof is important and facts and reality often get twisted in politics in Thailand. MANY Thais think Suthep is not nice and not "sincere" and think that most politicians are corrupt in Thailand. I would agree with those many Thais. Again, had a case been proven against Suthep and had he been sentenced to jail it would be a matter of a black-and-white statement. Since that never happened even after Chuan 2 fell and his political enemies gained power it pretty much begs the question of why didn't they go after him?
The fact for me is clear --- hammered nailed it on the head (pun intended). Sanoh is still around and so is Suthep and had there been the political will to go after them, both probably would not be. Making it pretty much a moot point.
I think you have in the past gone out of your way to defend Suthep.Not sure why.Your statement that most Thais think he is "not nice" or "insincere" adds nothing, nor does the blanket assertion that most Thai politicians are corrupt.The effect is to give the impression you believe that Suthep is no worse than the average Thai politician.Perhaps that is your intention.If incidentally you think the Thai judicial system punishes all (or any) corrupt politicians you need to hang around a bit longer.Oh yes there was one corrupt politician the courts pursued but perhaps there were other considerations in that case.
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Hmm Chuan One fell in 95 not 90, Chuan 2 in 2001. Again cite a source where Suthep was proven to have given away land in Phuket to wealthy families. You are correct that none of it is obscure other than proof. It REALLY isn't obscure as to the dates of Chuan Leekpai's administrations
Being accused of corruption is not the same thing as having it proven I will accept a conviction as evidence of proof.edit for typo
You can concentrate on my typo (for which I apologise) or you can deal with the issue.
What you will "accept as proof" of Suthep's corruption is of course neither here nor there.There is much corruption in Thailand which comes nowhere near the courts
Most Thais know the score on Suthep's corrupt background.His political enemies are explicit:his political friends will smile ruefully.None deny his guilt.
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Please cite a source proving where Suthep actually gave away land in Phuket to wealthy families.
Fascinating.He seems to have no idea what brought the Chuan Democrat led government in 1990, and the notorious role Suthep had in the Phuket land crisis that precipitated it.None of this is obscure or hard to read up on.
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Any and all of which could be significantly beneficial and strategic for Thailand to have in a myriad of circumstances.
Care to be more specific with some "what if" scenarios? Are the powerful Burmese or Cambodian navies making threatening overtures?
Has Thailand changed its kowtowing policy to address the threat of the only superpower, China?
What's this electronic information gathering.The 1950's comical Thailand fleet at Sattahip all have UBC dishes.Is that what you mean - more cable channels?
The funniest possibility you mention is "special operations."The mind boggles.
At some level even you must be aware your post is ridiculous.
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Yes, you can ask questions with a minimum of research. With a bit more research and/or experience, the answers to those questions are available. What helps is not making leaps that don't necessarily follow, such as, for example, determining that because Gulf of Siam is less than the best condition for a sub to operate in, it's easy to detect subs inside of it.
Ah the old warrant officer wisdom we remember so well from long ago.As usual some reasonably convincing technical detail but no recognition of the looming problem - these old subs aren't needed at all certainly at the price being paid.
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When will people realise, there will only be a coup when the dems fail to cling on to power at the next election.
Or even before the election if the military and its elite backers (one should perhaps be more accurate in saying the elite and its military backers) feel the various measures put in place will fail to secure a Democrat victory.One should also mention the possibility that the elite feels it is no longer in control of Abhisit, unlikely but possible because the PM is not a natural walkover.One should finally mention the X factor which is the gross stupidity in certain elements of the senior officer corps, which could result in some impetuous action devoid of thought and reason.
The reality is I think that Abhisit and his government have done enough to secure victory, and conversely the PTP have lost ground.In other words no need for skulduggery.I think the Thai people will give Abhisit a legitimate electoral second term.
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If I can ask these questions with a minimum of research I would hope that Abhisit and his advisors do a lot more research before approving yet another Defence Budget white elephant.
Or could it be that someone somehwere wants to keep the military happy and on side and to line pockets once again? Nine Iron rules on corruption, don't make me laugh.
The rationale for the purchase of these submarines has been widely discussed and documented.You are right they make little military or strategic sense.Most educated Thais know the reason for the purchase of this old fashioned and expensive (both capital and running costs) junk which is why it has been so widely commented on adversely in both Thai and English language editorials, an extreme example of the politics and corruption associated with military procurement in Thailand.
Nevertheless there is no item of Thai military procurement however stupid, corrupt, politically driven or simply inappropriate that will not find a defender on this forum.Okay it's normally the same person.Oops I just noted he already chipped in with his endorsement.
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Just did a quick internet search to see if any International news outlets picked up on this story in terms of maybe changing their tune about having any doubt about Thaksin's motives and being the leader of the opposition .. instead I found an interesting interview with Abhisit by Forbes from 2 days ago where he talks about Thaksin and the elections ... http://www.forbes.co...p-for-vote.html
Having finished reading yet but found this quote from him interesting ...
When I took over the party leadership in 2005, polls showed we had 7% support in the northeast, which has been a Thaksin stronghold. Now polls show we have 25% to 30%.Interesting also in the quoted article Abhisit recognised Thaksin had many achievements to his credit and that many Thai people were happy with this.
If I was to make this statement I would be attacked by the usual pack of forum reactionaries.Go figure.
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Like why is a man that is banned from politics, AND not able to run for MP in the future based upon the law of the land being followed by so many apparently brainwashed people
You summarise above your view.Anyone who doesn't agree is in your opinion "brainwashed".So much for the spirit of open discussion.
However there are many scholars, academics - not to mention millions of Thais who have a completely different understanding of why Thaksin is loathed and feared by the ruling elite.
Thaksins Drug War
in General Topics
Posted
Thanks for the courtesy of a well argued and broadly convincing response. I knew I would never receive a sensible reply from the person actually addressed.We should aim to make this the tone for future exchanges, in general anyway.I don't object to being mocked by the way.
While agreeing with your point that too many people were implicated at various levels, one sadly has to give some weight to the fact this was a broadly popular policy.I would also go further and suggest that there is no sense that the authorities would actually have liked to snag Thaksin on this charge but for practical reasons (which you have outlined) were compelled to pursue him with a more manageable lesser charge.There are also some highly sensitive reasons why this charge was not pursued, and I can go no further than that.Incidentally I do seriously maintain that the lesser charges were relativaly trivial.My own view, drugs war apart, is that Thaksin's most objectionable feature was an over weening meglomania compounded by changing the rules of the corporate playing field to suit himself.Anyway by pursuing these lesser charges, after Thaksin's flight, the chances of a successful extradition were nil.I know you don't like to hear it but the international view can be summarised that Thaksin, while no doubt a shady character, was illegally deposed after being popularly elected and was being pursued for political reasons by the Thai Government.It's a sorry story from which nobody emerges with credit.But what an opportunity missed.All Thailand's problems remain in the pressure cooker, simmering and building up steam.