jayboy

No 1 priorities should be catching Thaksin, and put him in Thai jail. Anything else does not matter.

Doesn't matter perhaps to you or the people think like you.But for most Thais there are higher priorities, not least reconciliation between all parts of society.As for jail time there's a long list of candidates including the criminals who encouraged and launched the last military coup.There's also the question of the more recent murder by the armed forces of unarmed civilians to be considered.Yes jail time would be appropriate for quite a few and I'm not sure Thaksin is the most deserving.

And in any case I would robustly maintain there is a lot of harmless pleasure in mocking the army of retired sexpats.

Please realize that when you do so you lower your own status to something only slightly above that of a trailer trash schoolyard bully.

Jayboy, you have interesting ideas and post reasonable arguments. Whether I agree with you are not I am always interested in your comments. You unfortunately have a nasty habit of heaping crude abuse on others.

I really don't mean to be a bully.But surely you are not saying that a little teasing is out of place, especially when the targets are so numerous and ludicrous?How can one walk down Lower Sukhumvit or anywhere in Pattaya and not snigger to oneself? And why are so many of them fat?

jayboy:

Leaving aside the crude abuse

Indeed. In the context of your own description of other posters, that's rich.

A very short sampling. There's loads more:

feral posters with their inane bleating

slimy rednecks

This is obviously an extreme form of intellectual impoverishment

always amusing to mock the huge band of retired sexpats

John, now that your Hideki persona has been banned, how do you decide between your March and ThaksinKharma personas to make your posts?

Let him be.As the great Frankie Howerd observed "one shouldn't mock the afflicted".It's sad however that someone could be bothered to trawl through posts just to make a feeble point,in most cases taking mild invective out of context.And in any case I would robustly maintain there is a lot of harmless pleasure in mocking the army of retired sexpats.

Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

Glad to see you are taking a broad civilised view in the spirit of genuine inquiry.Actually Amsterdam wiped the floor with poor old Somtow whose Eton/Cambridge brain has probably atrophied in Thailand's intellectually stultifying atmosphere where fairy tales are taken at face value.Both contributions were loaded cases, but that's fair enough.Amsterdam like most PR men is not my cup of tea but your summary of his career is ridiculous.He is taken seriously for example by the admirable Charlie Rose (who can be seen on Bloomberg now, a rare oasis of civilised discussion on the telly)

Still it's sad to see you in this mode - not the fair minded person I remember.Are you really comfortable to be in the company of the feral posters with their inane bleating "two legs bad four legs good" approach?

Charlie Rose has a tendency to be sycophantic and hardly critical, a bit like your own position re defending Thaksin's Gang really.

Ignoring your tired insult, you have a point on Charlie Rose though sycophantic is rather unfair.However he is civilised and intelligent and the softly softly approach can be deceptive.For example the arrogant and intelligent, though not I think very civilised, Prime Minister of Singapore recently made himself look a complete idiot on the show.Perhaps Thaksin will submit himself to be interviewed one day.

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

[quote name='yoshiwara' timestamp='1280731808' post='3789952'

This red apologist is not confused, or rather if they are it is because the orders from Thaksin Central are in a bit of a mess nowadays. The last time anybody checked the going rate for 1 vote for Thaksin was 500 baht peacetime and an escalator for red and black guard bomb throwing. Is this what you had in mind?

Do keep up the fake Thai spelling. 'I am very confuse'. It helps the fake kawaii.

As a change from this abusive,barely literate garbage, some may be interested to see Reuter's Andrew Marshall's excellent report.

http://blogs.reuters.com/andrew-marshall/2010/08/01/uneducate-people/

Amsterdam's whole career is built on creating lies, fabrications, internet creations and memes for his clients. That is all anyone needs to know. Period.

Glad to see you are taking a broad civilised view in the spirit of genuine inquiry.Actually Amsterdam wiped the floor with poor old Somtow whose Eton/Cambridge brain has probably atrophied in Thailand's intellectually stultifying atmosphere where fairy tales are taken at face value.Both contributions were loaded cases, but that's fair enough.Amsterdam like most PR men is not my cup of tea but your summary of his career is ridiculous.He is taken seriously for example by the admirable Charlie Rose (who can be seen on Bloomberg now, a rare oasis of civilised discussion on the telly)

Still it's sad to see you in this mode - not the fair minded person I remember.Are you really comfortable to be in the company of the feral posters with their inane bleating "two legs bad four legs good" approach?

Does it ever occur to apologists for the reactionary clique that controls Thailand that there is something rather odd in the fact that every reputable international media outlet somehow doesn't "get it" about Thailand?

Does it ever occur to Tai Rouge apologists that maybe international media news analysis might very well be wrong, as has been the case many times in the past?

Hitler and the rise of the Nazis was widely misreported in the American and British press in the 1930s, ditto the rise of the Khmer Rouge in 1975.

Leaving aside the crude abuse (Tai Rouge apologists) of those who challenge your view as well as the infantile and absurd historical comparison, I agree it's possible that one or two respected international media sources might get it wrong - but all of them? Get real.

the guy is slime. The Goebbels comparison is spot on.

Yes, thanks for making that thoughtful and well argued point.For those who actually have read deeply about Nazi Germany the post immediately above from Animatic is actually spot on for the style of Goebbels, unnervingly so actually.The vicious homophobia is quite typical.

Not at all homophobic. So don't bother trying that line.

I have friends of all persuasions EXCEPT those who are abusive to

others in life and their sex lives. His general rep also includes not so

nice references to his abusive preferences with much younger men.

Whether your disgraceful post is homophobic for others to judge, not you.And don't try that some of my best friends are gay tired old line.

the guy is slime. The Goebbels comparison is spot on.

Yes, thanks for making that thoughtful and well argued point.For those who actually have read deeply about Nazi Germany the post immediately above from Animatic is actually spot on for the style of Goebbels, unnervingly so actually.The vicious homophobia is quite typical.

Bill has been here for most of his life. His businesses have sprung from his affinity for this country, not the other way around. He has done more for this country than any of you lot.

Agree or disagree, but don't malign the man with untruths.

Yes and no.He is a clever guy and his business record is impressive not least because he understands and plays by the rules of the (Sino-Thai scamming) Thai game.If that is interpreted as a back handed compliment, so be it.

The bomb must be planted by the person/group that will benefits from it going off.

Or just imagine they benefited in their warped world view.

Chantorn makes a very valid point.Cui bono or who benefits is always a good question when the circumstances are hazy.In the past initial speculation on the origin of bombs or more accurately explosive devices have almost always been wrong.Even now it only appears probable that dissident members of the armed forces were likely to have been involved - but nobody knows for sure.Hopefully in this instance CCTV evidence will track down the culprits.But back to the cui bono point it's very revealing that a hard line never wrong type like Animatic is reduced to talking about a a warped world view.Kind of indicates to the alert who the real culprits might be.

Basically it knockled a humiliting electoral defeat off the front pages and one that PTP thought they would win on a sub 50% turnout in a constituency where they have a big base and the reds had set the vote up as a referendum on the red action knowing they would turn out tens of thousands of votes and knowing a lot of the Dem voters wouold go away for the long weekend. It didnt go as planned,. A 10% margin on a low turnout is better than any Dem would have dared predict on such a turnout and far worse than the PTP internal predictions for such a scenario.

Still plan B the bomb knocked it off the front pages and also ensured the SoE must stay whiohc is just what Thaksin wants for PR reasons abroad. It was the fall back plan. If Korkaew had won then no bomb. Real Politik 101

Interesting that Thaksin's statement implicitly admits it was his side.

Hammered.

Crikey - what's happened to the voice of reason I used to respect? "Humiliating electoral defeat" - Come on -no serious commentator believes that, eg the sensible Bangkok Post editorial this morning.

Even worse you speculation about the bomb.What's happened to you? Perhaps you're just fed up with the endless saga - and I sympathise.

More in sorrow than in anger.

point 2 I wouldn't compare the LM laws to the Nuremburg trials nor South Africa apartheid or the US's Jim Crow laws. They aren't the same.

I don't really follow the Nuremberg example but surely there are parallels with the SA apartheid and the US Jim Crow laws.In other words all are rotten anachronistic laws completely out of synch with the modern age.Actually LM is in some ways worse because the original intent was an honourable one serving the institution which has brought pride and stability to this country.In practice it has been hijacked by creeps and opportunists (and their craven farang fellow travellers who don't even have the excuse that they might benefit from the law's perversion).I think it's fair to say that there are no defenders of the law worth respecting and the decent politicians are looking for a way to reform.(It's difficult I know for reasons I don't need to expound, and even decent people like Abhisit sometimes play with fire by politicising a sensitive issue - sometimes with manifest dishonesty).The tragedy of all this that the actual and practical effect is now the absolute opposite of what was originally intended, and that is a terrible shame.

As for the foreigners who say they can live with the law, I have nothing but contempt.There would have been many slimy rednecks who said the same about the Jim Crow laws.

The reds lost in their most indoctrinated and controlled segment of Bangkok.

Mostly filled with up country reds who already were buying or were brainwashed

or leveraged into the party line. No doubt the hardcore were going nowhere but PTP,

when they are already indoctrinated to think all opposition is nothing but lies,

they go and vote for those who did the brainwashing right on schedule.

This proves nothing of any great red gains or progress, it's is just the same people

that the Thaksin machine has reeled in and us using for their own ends.

Seems few, if any people other than this segment were swayed more red because

of the removal from racha' that THEY made more violent.

No red gains in even the slightest margin, loses if anything.

Is this the whole country, no, just a microcosm.

Whistling in the dark, or perhaps just the same old gobblededook.Nobody with a clue ever thought this constituency was a reflection of the country as a whole

For the non doctrinated, the result was much as expected and not too far from the position last time round. Neither the PTP nor the Dems will be too displeased.It shows perhaps that in this corner of Bangkok Abhisit is seen as having put in a respectable performance but that the Reds haven't lost out.In other words not much change.

Not a COUNTRY in the entire WORLD where you would simply be allowed to damage the country's for months, indefinitely. This is FACT. Try it in the US sometime. See if only 80 of your 5000 friends are killed.

I'm afraid you have demonstrated nothing here except an extreme point of view, an unfamiliarity with the analytical process and an unusual toleration for violence including the murder of unarmed civilians civilians.What you have failed to do is to come up with a calm and rational analysis of Amsterdam's article.The crude and callous use of intemperate language doesn't help your cause.Anyway if it's any comfort I'm sure there are many who share your views, including many of the Bangkok urban population.

You claim they where unarmed, where is your proof?

The general concensus, not amongst red fans, is that many of the wounded and killed was armed in some fashion. And *none* of them was 'innocent' as their occupation was illegal.

There can be no riot of thousands if the violent minority do not get the silent backing of the majority that pushes on behind them.

Please provide us with any videos that show the red guards stopping the violent thugs from their actions.

Don't have any? But surely the red guards had control of their people within the barricades? No?

Where is your general concensus? based on what? Can you link to some online sources that taken exactly that stance, that the killed were armed and died from bullets by the government security forces? Please post them. Or stop making claims you cannot substantiate and back up with harder facts then declaring them to a fictional general concensus.

The consensus if there is one is that many unarmed civilians were murdered by the army.There's also a consensus that within the red camp there were violent men who came to the fore in the latter stages of the episode.

The silent (and not so silent) backing of many urban middle class of these murderous tactics is a matter of record.Even now the red dead remain unmourned and uninvestigated (the government calls them all "terrorists") while the yapping middle class bewail the loss of Central Department Store.Do these myopic fools really believe there will not be a reckoning to come?

Because of you, I just did. I'm bored enough to destroy that piece of filth - it's stupidity on a level even Sarah Palin would ridicule.....

I think in this very revealing reply you have made my point more comprehensively and conclusively than I ever could.As I mentioned earlier there are many that "just know" the details of the massacre and they will not be swayed by argument or evidence, even in the unlikely event of an independent investigation.Nobody claimed Robert Amsterdam's piece was other than a partisan argument, but even sceptics accept some important points were raised and unanswered questions posed.

But for you it is just a "piece of filth", "moronic drivel" etc.

You are just posing the same closed mind view albeit in a slightly different way.

Sorry I'm still confused and wish to learn from your wisdom. What was your response to my question? Namely, no matter how much you've read / heard from one source over a long period of time....you're saying one would be closed-minded not to carefully read every new piece of drivel from that same source - you know, to avoid the whole intellectual impoverishment and that?

Seems to me to be a retarded waste of time? Where am I going wrong with my reasoning?

Let's assume you want a serious reply, and I will relate it to the specific rather than generalities.Firstly I think most fairminded people believe that there should be some genuine inquiry into the deaths which occurred during the red demonstrations in Central Bangkok.Most of us have some views based on personal experience,news reports and anecdote but the honest answer is that we don't really know the full story.I accept there are those who "just know" but we can dismiss these people.There's no doubt Robert Amsterdam is Thaksin's PR consultant and that in itself isn't objectionable.(The Thai Government also uses similar people).What is clear however is that Amsterdam is being projected by those who disagree with his line as some kind of tainted Mafioso scam merchant.It just ain't so as a small amount of research will indicate.One of the best American interviewers Charlie Rose took him seriously enough to warrant an interview.The document itself which I have read is a well argued piece with plenty of content to digest and has some well made points.It's certainly not a piece of drivel.You appear to believe it is so worthless that it should not even be read let alone debated.(I accept there are several areas where he needs to be corrected, but that's a different matter).So where did you get your information that Amsterdam is a purveyor of drivel and need not be read? Surely you should consider reading his views and then, if that's your line, just demolishing it point by point.Of course I don't think all known nonsense should be read but by any definition the Amsterdam piece isn't nonsense.And don't forget it was you that made an announcement on this forum on the subject thus presumably inviting scrutiny of your, with respect, intellectually impoverished position.

Thaksin hasn't been 'objective' in his entire life. He's a borderline crackpot living in a state of self-aggrandised delusion. If he pays someone to criticise Thailand's state of affairs, I don't need to read what they've written to know it's not worth reading.

And neither should you - quite frankly.

This is obviously an extreme form of intellectual impoverishment but it's not so rare as one might hope.He makes,needless to say, no reference to the current government censorship and propaganda machine.Ignore him.Those who should be taken seriously are those who read carefully and deconstruct, if appropriate, comprehensively.This fellow is simply a blowhard who would be comfortable with the burning of books.The Nazis put the same "arguments" forward as this sorry specimen.

All very depressing.

Sorry...are you saying that one must read every single piece of drivel written so as to avoid intellectual impoverishment? Even if one has already read enough from a source to be able to accurately predict the nature of all future copy?

If so, I have millions of words of drivel for you to catch up on. Billions, in fact. Please let me know where I can send them, for your careful reading and comprehensive deconstruction [if appropriate].

You are just posing the same closed mind view albeit in a slightly different way.

You scorned it and then admit to not even reading it.........

Wow.

What to say ?

Admit? No. I flatly stated the fact. I would be 'admitting' to having read it, if I had done so.

But I don't need to have read every single book in the Bible, Torah or the Qu'ran to be able to predict the unread ones are likely more of the same gibberish; I don't need to have watched Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly to know they aren't worth listening to - the fact that they have their own shows on Faux News tells me everything I need to know about their particular 'caper'; and the fact that the author of this paper is paid by Thaksin tells me everything I need to know.

Thaksin hasn't been 'objective' in his entire life. He's a borderline crackpot living in a state of self-aggrandised delusion. If he pays someone to criticise Thailand's state of affairs, I don't need to read what they've written to know it's not worth reading.

And neither should you - quite frankly.

This is obviously an extreme form of intellectual impoverishment but it's not so rare as one might hope.He makes,needless to say, no reference to the current government censorship and propaganda machine.Ignore him.Those who should be taken seriously are those who read carefully and deconstruct, if appropriate, comprehensively.This fellow is simply a blowhard who would be comfortable with the burning of books.The Nazis put the same "arguments" forward as this sorry specimen.

All very depressing.Fortunately there's a Central sale to cheer us all up

http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=922

For the benefit of those with reading difficulties, yesterday's post re-posted

Clearly my point about Jim Crow laws was ignored or went over your head.If you are just saying a discredited and widely abused law deserves to be respected because it's the law, you have made your slightly simple minded point - not that anyone familiar with your record is deceived as to your position (ie craven support for repression wherever it occurs)

no attempt was made to contact prachatai to remove such comments.

Wouldn't think that was necessary, as afterall...

We all know the law

A bad law is a bad law.For example the Jim Crow laws in the old South, which enshrined racial hatred.Here in Thailand the more enlightened Thai leaders are looking to reform anachronistic laws which in at least one case is having the precise opposite of its intention.What's surprising is the support being provided by a few foreigners.We know that scumbag Thai politicians of all stripes abuse laws for their own selfish ends, and thus bring well intentioned measures into scorn and disrepute.But it's slightly mysterious why a few foreigners take the same morally repugnant path.

"endless moderating" is part and parcel with running a forum (same as this forum does) on a daily basis. If they didn't want to moderate it properly, as evidenced by allowing LM posts to remain online, then they shouldn't be running a forum. The TV forum exists because it does moderate out illegal discussions, in the multitude of forms that it can involve, including LM.

Being a "political forum" does not exclude the responsibility for proper moderation, same as this forum.

It's slightly bizarre that the sage of Sriracha has the chutzpah to invoke forum rules.

Anyway ignore him.The problem at Prachatai was a cause of concern to many serious people including Khun Abhisit.

All this censorship is an act of desperation and won't achieve anything in the long run. As prachatai has shown recently, you can shut a website down but then it can just spring up somewhere new in no time at all.

Just to reiterate, prachatai was not "shut down." The owners closed it on their own volition.

Just as the AOT closed down the airport.It had nothing to do with the yellow criminals occupying it.