jayboy
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Posts posted by jayboy
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Even the most hostile observers were surprised by the warm welcome the Reds received from many Bangkokians.That's just a fact ...
It's a fact that there are many in Bangkok who were sympathetic to the red-shirt cause. Lots of people in Bangkok come from the Isan area, so no surprise. Lots of Bangkokians voted PTP, lots of others Dem's. Lots of people in Bangkok were sympathetic to the yellow-shirts, no surprise either.
To say 'warm welcome' and 'even hostile observers surprised' is less a fact than an interpretation and as such more like an opinion. Somehow I think the soldiers which arrived in Bangkok as part of the September 2006 coup got a much warmer welcome
You're absolutely right.This is a subjective matter.I suppose what surprised me was the very positive reaction of non Isaan Bangkokians, mostly working class or lower middle class I agree.I did also see negative reactions mostly from middle class office workers in the Sathorn area.
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There was a "massive and general welcome for the reds before it went pearshaped"? Wow! They proclaim a million will be there but in a city of between 8-12 million they could get a total of 100,000 (mostly paid and trucked in) but hey ... that's a massive and general welcome!
As for connections between the reds and communism you need only look at Thida and Weng. Both actively involved with the Maoist CPT in the past.
Even the most hostile observers were surprised by the warm welcome the Reds received from many Bangkokians.That's just a fact and your denial speaks volumes about your ignorance and poor judgement.
Even those like you who apparently have no knowledge of recent Thai history would be struck by the absurdity of those who claims that the Reds embody Thaksinite free market capitalism alongside a Marxist agenda.These unread ignoramuses probably don't understand however how poisonous this kind of communist branding rhetoric can be.They don't understand or know about the events at Thammasat in 1976, and how right wing thugs were incited to murder under the guise of battling communists.
Wasn't it Samak Sunthoravej –who gave orders to massacre the students. Isn't he part of the red movement and was Thaksin's stand in Prime Minister?
Samak's role was disgraceful but he was more of a cheerleader for violence than its instigator.He is incidentally dead so he's not part of any movement.There was a banned member Sriracha John who maintained Samak's final illness was faked, but the general consensus is indeed that he is dead.Bucholz might like to comment.
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Even the most hostile observers were surprised by the warm welcome the Reds received from many Bangkokians.That's just a fact and your denial speaks volumes about your ignorance and poor judgement.
Even those like you who apparently have no knowledge of recent Thai history would be struck by the absurdity of those who claims that the Reds embody Thaksinite free market capitalism alongside a Marxist agenda.These unread ignoramuses probably don't understand however how poisonous this kind of communist branding rhetoric can be.They don't understand or know about the events at Thammasat in 1976, and how right wing thugs were incited to murder under the guise of battling communists.
More ad hominem attacks from Jayboy ... even in the face of all the evidence
Neatly avoiding the facts that don't fit with your view.
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There was a "massive and general welcome for the reds before it went pearshaped"? Wow! They proclaim a million will be there but in a city of between 8-12 million they could get a total of 100,000 (mostly paid and trucked in) but hey ... that's a massive and general welcome!
As for connections between the reds and communism you need only look at Thida and Weng. Both actively involved with the Maoist CPT in the past.
Even the most hostile observers were surprised by the warm welcome the Reds received from many Bangkokians.That's just a fact and your denial speaks volumes about your ignorance and poor judgement.
Even those like you who apparently have no knowledge of recent Thai history would be struck by the absurdity of those who claims that the Reds embody Thaksinite free market capitalism alongside a Marxist agenda.These unread ignoramuses probably don't understand however how poisonous this kind of communist branding rhetoric can be.They don't understand or know about the events at Thammasat in 1976, and how right wing thugs were incited to murder under the guise of battling communists.
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[quote name='Nisa' timestamp='
But the problem is the Reds don't take a stand in regards to making things better for the poor except for their continued broken record demand of what the think is democracy. Their demands back in April were not to better the lives of the poor but simply to disband the current government immediately at any cost to the country. The cannot be taken seriously as being interested in democracy when their only agenda is to oust the leaders in charge if they are not those they want. Maybe they do believe in the struggle of the poor based on their choosing Red as their color and the number of communist Red Star caps I see at the rallies and if their goal is to make Thailand a communist nation then this may explain the lack of any proposed policies or grievances beyond trying to overthrow the government.
Yes, people are aware of the class struggles in Thailand AND MOST DO CARE but the answer is not the reds as they have blown all credibility. A more moderate fraction needs to break off from this group in order for the poor to be represented seriously and allow others to understand what it is they want and how they believe it can happen. The truth of the matter is people who are not Reds are by far not yellows. The vast majority of people I know in BKK do not at all consider themselves Yellows but do support Abhisit and do think the Reds are either lunatics or too ignorant or selfish to care what their leaders are doing to them.
I don't think any reasonable person could be other than disappointed in the quality of Red leadership.However your comments are politically rather naive and in places fatuous (your commie gibes) and there is no indication from what you say why there was a massive and general welcome for the Reds in Bangkok before it all went pear shaped.It's not for you or I to talk patronisingly of the need for "moderate factions" to break off.Yes there was a demand for the Government to hold elections - hardly surprising given the outrageous bias shown by the various organs of state (I am being deliberately vague) in shoring up elite interests.I support Abhisit as well but it doesn't mean I don't sympathise with the Red movement.
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The 2 outstanding questions are
1) Do Thai/Chinese business men treat their employees any worse than other businessmen in Thailand.
and
2) Who specifically was he referring to as a when he was speaking of a business man that he claims is a visa-runner?
(both seem to be relevant to the thread since this is about businessmen in Thailand
Of course you can find like minded acolytes on this forum.What comfort you draw from them is a matter for you.
As to (1) since the vast majority of businessmen are Sino-Thai, it's not a very intelligent question.
As to (2) I have no idea what's bugging you on this, specifically why you need to know names.Do you have some personal interest in visa running?
Moving away from your nonsense to the thread subject matter, there was an excellent article by Veera Prateepchaikul in the other paper this morning, analysing the spirit of compromise which has brought a sensible settlement between UDD and the Ratchaprasong business operators.
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I wonder if jayboy can stand the light .......
Jayboy, who are these businessmen specifically that are visa-runners you keep referring to?
I am guessing you will stand mute on this direct question.BTW -- I don't think I have made the claim that I am upper-middle class, I do think I have made the claim that my Thai partner comes from an upper middleclass background and is upper middle class. (I come from a middle-class acedemic family. My father is a retired professor etc) As far as your other attacks on my education etc ....... Pttttttt't't't.
You are still imho a bigot when it comes to how you talk about the "sino-thai"
Sorry I don't do personal stuff and would suggest you follow my line.
I note you are calling me a bigot again despite my careful explanations.I suspect for reasons unknown you just don't like the term "Sino-Thai"
As to your background you can pretend to be anything you like.Nobody cares but for the sake of plausibility I should avoid playing the upper middle class Oxbridge type if I were you.
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I wasn't making a moral judgement, simply querying whether the benevolent Quaker employment philosophy has many followers among the Sino-Thai business class.
lol ... Sino-Thai business class? Jayboy are you assuming that there is any difference in how the Thai/Chinese ethnic group pays and treats employees in Thailand compared to other groups? If so, can you show any empirical evidence of this? Yet again the attack on the Thai Chinese ethnic group? Why? Your basic premise seems to be that businesses all tend to use the same typical policies to maximize profits, so singling out this group you attack over and over smacks of bigotry to me.
You have elsewhere proclaimed you are "well educated and, less convincingly, "upper middle class."
Yet you have difficulty in understanding a simple proposition which has been made several times, namely that to point out that business in THailand is dominated overwhelmingly by Sino-Thais is not the same as making an attack on that community.Got it now?
Your other points I have dealt with elsewhere.
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...made it look like Thai employers are a 'special breed of evil'. This is merely the way things are done - and should be done in any situation where two parties negotiate an employer-employee contract.
No that wasn't my intent, and it's not what I think about Thai employers.
I suppose my comment was less than flattering about the social and intellectual calibre of visa runners (and those "businessmen" who are in reality visa runners) .. but that's a different story.
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The clown show continues...
Irritated by the sensible compromise negotiated by police, traders and redshirts?
Our PAD representative from Sri Racha resorts to baby talk.
.... and yet again Jayboy attacks the poster (with innuendo and not facts apparently) instead of dealing with the post.
Bucholz's post clearly showed where Thida lied about not blocking/shutting down traffic around Central World ... so instead of dealing with that ......
If the police and traders are satisfied, that's good enough for most people.The hardline purveyors of hatred will never be satisfied.
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No you misunderstand me.It's perfectly acceptable even commendable, and represents Thailand's accession to modern politics.That's why on balance I support the Abhisit/Korn approach.
What is the Abhisit/Korn "approach"? This pairing might be more competent/qualified than what PT has to offer at the moment (but let's remember this much lauded pairing has taken on board much of PT/PPP's platform), but I don't see any evidence AT ALL of them having a different "approach"? As far as I can tell both sides have roughly the same economic & social policies, the only difference is one side is closer to the traditional elite than the other. Correct me if I'm wrong. The only crucial difference is rhetorical and stylistic, a matter of perception, I suppose. Abhisit is unlikely to be able to communicate to the rural poor in the way Thaksin was able to (don't know why because it's not like Thaksin had anything to do w/the rural poor before he became a politician).
You are right to query the pairing.In my case it's really a shorthand way to describe a policy that addresses social needs fairly, but is based on hard headed economic principles.It's the "competence" of the Abhisit/Korn pairing that appeals.I just don't see it with the PTP or to be frank with most of the coalition partners.
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Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.
Uhm, that is how it is supposed to be and it is in all parts of the world.
Do you run your own business, are you employed or lifting social service benefits?
I wasn't making a moral judgement, simply querying whether the benevolent Quaker employment philosophy has many followers among the Sino-Thai business class.
So you admit that Thai, American and Japanese employers pay their employees the lowest salary they think their employees will accept to perform the job assigned, no-matter if the employee is poor or rich or the skin-color they have?
I don't see where you're going with this or why.But anyway you seem a reasonable polite sort of person so here goes..
Actually while obviously you are broadly correct, there are significant differences in the examples you mention related to culture, meaningful minimum wages etc etc.Remember that the average Sino-Thai businessman is only a few generations away from being a wretched illiterate peasant.These people dragged themselves up amazingly but there's not likely to be much sympathy for the concept of generous salaries.In other words the dog eat dog mentality is more prevalent.I don't particularly have any issue with this.
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Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.
Uhm, that is how it is supposed to be and it is in all parts of the world.
Do you run your own business, are you employed or lifting social service benefits?
I wasn't making a moral judgement, simply querying whether the benevolent Quaker employment philosophy has many followers among the Sino-Thai business class.
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As for 'if they get away with it' suggests the Dem's have done something devious, wrong, bordering illegal even maybe. Your opinion I guess, but personally I see no proof of that.
No you misunderstand me.It's perfectly acceptable even commendable, and represents Thailand's accession to modern politics.That's why on balance I support the Abhisit/Korn approach.
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The clown show continues...
Irritated by the sensible compromise negotiated by police, traders and redshirts?
Our PAD representative from Sri Racha resorts to baby talk.
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Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong businessp eople not to be enemies of group; Jatuporn says worsening econ not as bad as dead reds /TAN_Network
"Red shirt leader Thida warns Ratchaprasong business people not to be enemies of group"
Is this another example of red democracy?
Perhaps more a warning from her, that only red-shirt groups are allowed to stand-up, for the poor. They naturally have exclusive-rights for this in Thailand, and all other pretenders such as these employers (concerned about their employees or their own jobs) are fakes, including of course the Dems or any other political-party.
How dare they do anything, which benefits the poor, and steals her own side's thunder ?
Thai employers "concerned" about their "poor" employees are rarer than Oxbridge Ph.D's on a visa run bus to the Cambodian border.They pay what they think they can get away with.
As far as the Dems' "populist" measures only the completely blinkered would deny that these wouldn't have taken place at all without Thaksin's example and Red pressure.The senior Dems don't even bother to deny this.
If they can get away with it good luck to them.I prefer Abhisit and Korn to the Red leadership (not least because they are economically literate), and there's a long political tradition of "walking away with the Whigs' clothes", i.e more conservative parties commandeering electorally attractive elements of opposition policies.
You can insult Thida and the Reds all you like but the reality is that the landscape of Thai politics has been permanently changed, and this is entirely due to the Reds
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This "context" is crucial as I have pointed out many times in understanding the unattractive hysteria.You with respect don't seem to have taken it on board, or have airily dismissed it.But it's crucial to fully appreciate the resentment of the culture of impunity to understand what has been going on.
I have no argument that the rich, powerful, famous and/or elite can get away with a lot here in Thailand as they do elsewhere in the world and that corruption is rampant here. However, if you research more about cyber bullying and online lynch mobs that form you will find they often have no real rhyme or reason to when they will form and who the target will be. You also have to consider that true anger about a legit issue should not require lies and hatred to the degree involved in these cyber mobs.
Here is another good link (mainly because it shows some examples of targets of this online lynch mobs) .. http://www.tampabay.com/features/humaninterest/article991297.ece
When you read the stories about weak kids in school becoming victims to these cyber attacks you should realize this is not something based in logic. These weak kids may face torment at school by one or two bullies but when it spreads online all of a sudden hundreds from the school want to focus their rage on this kid whose only offence maybe that they are shy and red headed or in other cases a girl who is perceived as being too pretty. Clearly these people committing these acts online have issues. Even in Thailand there is a way to get a message out and get positive results without going to the extreme of joining a hate group that generally serves only to make your group not be heard (dismissed) and be seen negatively.
Regardless if we are in public or online we should all find ways to express our emotions appropriately and without the need to spread lies or believe lies that a rational person would find highly suspicious, in order to fuel the venting of built up rage.
Thanks.I will check the link.As always there's little you say with which I disagree.
But while agreeing there are culture of impunity abuses in many countries (though Thailand is a particularly bad offender) what's interesting to me is that Thais are beginning to resent it very much.I think that's a trend, perhaps overlapping, but nevertheless distinct from the lynch mob mentality you describe and rightly condemn.
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According to: http://asiancorrespo...t-thai-society/
which kind of does a chronology of events regarding the online lynching of this 16-year old girl. The photos (and believe her name) were first published by Daily News Online (Thai Language) and then spread to Twitter and resulted in the fake postings by the 16-year old as well as faked photos. From there it took off.
On December 27, Daily News online, news website of the second-largest circulated Thai-language daily newspaper, published a series of photo from the night of accident. One of the photo featured Miss A here.
However, when the picture was circulated on Twitter many Thai Twitter users not only rushed to judge that she was entirely responsible for the accident, but also believed that she was chatting on her BlackBerry right after the accident and angrily slammed her with rude words.
It's not a bad article at all.I was struck by one extract in particular:
"It is undeniable that social class plays a major role in this story. The news about the van has enraged the middle-class on Facebook because those in the van share the same class with them. They extremely ‘regret’ the deaths the PhD and researchers lost by the spoiled reckless rich girl.
They fear that their ‘middle-class friends’ will not receive justice as the elite will escape from a punishment because of their influence and money.
Interestingly, this may be the first time that the middle-class have realized that they are also affected by the so-called “double standard” of the Thai judicial system that the red shirts have campaigned against."
This "context" is crucial as I have pointed out many times in understanding the unattractive hysteria.You with respect don't seem to have taken it on board, or have airily dismissed it.But it's crucial to fully appreciate the resentment of the culture of impunity to understand what has been going on.
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If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake
Would you be so kind and inform us what street you live on? I feel like demonstrating - perhaps a 'Reclaim The Streets Dance Night - screw those that dislike it.
You completely miss the point.My remarks were not aimed at the retailers who need to earn an honest living but at those smug Bangkokians who place their own fatuous mall rat experience over everything else.
The good news is that a sensible compromise has been worked out between the protesters, traders and police.It can be done with good will on all sides
Given that the OP *IS* about "the retailers who need to earn an honest living", and the particular post you quoted highlighted that fact, we didn't miss the point at all.
For heavens sake are you making my points for me or do I have sole rights to that privilege? Read the posts again more carefully.
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If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake
Would you be so kind and inform us what street you live on? I feel like demonstrating - perhaps a 'Reclaim The Streets Dance Night - screw those that dislike it.
You completely miss the point.My remarks were not aimed at the retailers who need to earn an honest living but at those smug Bangkokians who place their own fatuous mall rat experience over everything else.
The good news is that a sensible compromise has been worked out between the protesters, traders and police.It can be done with good will on all sides
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there's nothing wrong with Socialism if it gives an equal share to all.
That's precisely what's wrong with it.
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The choice of that venue will not affect the future direction of this country. That is YOUR tunnel vision. The deaths throughout April and May are very sad, the grenade attacks against companies opposed to the red shirts are very sad. The fact that the reds are not interested in Democracy or rule of law becomes the deciding factor. Simply said, the people (many of them quite poor) that obtain their livelihoods from working there are more important in the scheme of things than the reds desire to elicit sympathy for a group that certainly has used terrorist tactics and openly states they will not cooperate with the government. You stress that they should be peaceful demonstrations but the ones that led to the April and May crackdowns were not. You say they should be coordinated and supervised but the redshirt leader has already stated she will not cooperate.
I feel the same disgust you do but with a different group of people. The redshirt leaders that played with the lives of their mostly-paid followers (yet quickly ended things when it got hot near their precious bodies) are the target of my disgust. Their vulgar disregard for the lives entrusted to them even if for pay makes me sick. The people that deny the facts of Seh Daeng's Ronin in their midst makes me ill as well.You really did say it right in the other post. "screw them"
I don't understand much of your post I'm afraid, full of bizarre and unsupported prescriptive definitions
You are possibly letting your dislike and ignorance (still absurdly arguing they are in it for pay) of the redshirts run away with you.I thought we were basically talking about management of demonstrations anyway.If Thida etc won't cooperate with the authorities about peaceful protests she deserves no sympathy (though let's see how this works out in practice).Human life is more important than property.
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No the original comment was very pertinent.The Red Shirts have every right to protest peacefully and obviously this should be done in liaison with police and other authorities, who in turn should consult local residents and business people.
If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake
Sorry, but the protesters do NOT have the right to continually disrupt the lives and livelihoods of the residents and businessmen in BKK. They have the right to protest (within legal parameters) but not to pick the protest site when it directly impacts the rights of others. We are not talking about as you so snidely put it "people who like to hang in BKK's upmarket malls" we are talking about the rights of the citizens (not just the reds) to conduct business and go about their lives unimpeded. The more important issues would be what? Democracy? Rule of Law? Those are certainly things that the reds have proven that they are NOT interested in. As you so eloquently put it "screw them".
Sorry but your tunnel vision is showing.I sympathise with those who are inconvenienced but in the greater scheme of things (the future direction of the country) it's not that important.As I stressed demonstrations of whatever hue should be peaceful and co-ordinated/supervised by the appropriate authorities.
My "hang out" comment was really just a reflection of disgust at those last year who appeared more concerned at lack of access to their vulgar malls than their fellow countrymen mowed down in the street.
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In democracies groups have a right to demonstrate. Mostly the organizers and the police will setup a meeting to discuss subject, route, attendance, limitations, security issues, first-aid preparations/stations, start/stop time, etc., etc. This to ensure a peaceful rally with minimal disturbance.
If the Ratchaprasong business people don't like being singled out for protests they should start talks with police and rally organizers to reach a compromise.
Democracy is action, you've got to love it
What an utterly stupid thing to say. Do you have *any idea* what happened at Ratchaprasong last year? Like shooting people, throwing bombs and finally burning a fair bit of it down? Is that a "peaceful rally with minimal disturbance"?
You're in Thailand now, things work a bit differently here.
No the original comment was very pertinent.The Red Shirts have every right to protest peacefully and obviously this should be done in liaison with police and other authorities, who in turn should consult local residents and business people.
If the protests occasionally inconvenience those who like to "hang" in Bangkok's upmarket malls, screw them.There are more important issues at stake
Rally At Bangkok's Ratchaprasong
in Thailand News
Posted
Actually Emptyset gives a very accurate and concise explanation of the Samak role so it's slightly odd that Nisa came back with the unhelpfully bland Wiki quote.Samak's role was disgraceful but he wasn't the prime mover.I don't quite see what you mean by "selective memory".
Clearly as I said earlier there are several intelligent forum members who simply haven't done (apparently) any detailed reading of the last decades of Thai political history.It explains why so many posts from whatever vantage point lack rooting in any understanding of context.