jayboy

Now why am I not surprised (with your never ending absurd posts defending that foolish hiso illegal driver) that these fatuous comments are your political views? You are as programmed as any Isaan peasnt.

By the way if you believe Reds are uninterested in good educational opportunities for your children, you are very ignorant.

You lot are a sad bunch. You all cry for justice, but are ready to pass your own judgement on this girl before she has been properly convicted.

And before you all get on your high horses about me defending her, I'm not..I'm quite happy for a court to decide whether she is guilty or not after reviewing all the facts and evidence (and not from reading newspaper reports like the wannabe judges on this forum)

Listen to yourselves almost baying for blood.. "lock her up, throw away the key" you say.. thank god you are not part of the legal system in any country.

This whole thing is a tradgedy.. for all involved.

totster

Totster for PM...

Sad bunch indeed...

Actually it's a reasonable sentiment, but neither original nor very interesting.

Apart from a few blood baying crazies everybody accepts the people in this incident should not be judged before a full investigation, nor should people be be prejudged because of their posh background.OK, everybody on board now?

Now we can consider the broader context namely the culture of impunity for the rich and privileged, and in my mind more interestingly why this incident has aroused so much passion at this particular time.

You lot are a sad bunch. You all cry for justice, but are ready to pass your own judgement on this girl before she has been properly convicted.

And before you all get on your high horses about me defending her, I'm not..I'm quite happy for a court to decide whether she is guilty or not after reviewing all the facts and evidence (and not from reading newspaper reports like the wannabe judges on this forum)

Listen to yourselves almost baying for blood.. "lock her up, throw away the key" you say.. thank god you are not part of the legal system in any country.

This whole thing is a tradgedy.. for all involved.

totster

Admirable sentiments with which one would agree.The problem is not however the people baying for blood for they are obviously wrong.

The general issue is whether the rich and privileged should continue to evade justice in Thailand.In this particular case we must await the outcome though all sadly the signs are that the traditional patterns will apply.

It is also interesting why this case has raised so much heat among ordinary Thais at this particular time.

So your comment about those who bay for blood is well made, but the truth is you have also missed the main point as the dead victims families would tell you.

we wont interfere in the cambodian legal system but if they don't get a move on and give us a favourable result it will affect diplomatic ties. surely a threat to diplomacy is interfering in their legal process.

When will Thailand grow up, accept their people did wrong and accept the punishment that goes with it.

I would have thought little Kasit would rather approve of delayed legal proceedings, since his own terrorist activities have yet to come before a Thai court.

It is now for you to reflect (since you seem to have no idea) why there is so much anger about this case.Of course the girl's rights must be respected but your posts are ridiculously out of balance.It's not really about class envy at all but rather a widespread rage that the elite in this country get away with crimes and abuse through the exercise of influence and money.Whether this is relevant here or will be a factor in this case remains to be seen.So far so good.

So basically this incident, that you admit has gone (handled) good so far, should be justification for anger DIRECTED AT THIS MINOR because other people of influence of money have got away with things in the past?

In fact, things have not only gone good so far in terms of the handling of the events in the aftermath but because of the name she was born with she has already had to endure death threats, her name being released by police as well as photos being published (both illegal when a minor involved in a crime). The victims family are already receiving token payments and am sure there will be much more to come given this family does appear to have the resources as opposed to a poor person.

I have no idea how rich this family is but it is simply a matter of fact that the rich often have the ability to buy their way out of problems all over the world. It is not unique to Thailand.

Personally I find it illogical, ignorant and disregardful to those killed and injured to try to make this girl the focus of anger regarding issues that have happened in the past or the family she was born into.

You still don't appear to get it.The significant issue is why there has been so much anger and rage at this particular incident, and above all why now.I don't think there would have been such a virulent reaction even ten years ago.It is I concede partly a reaction of frustration at the culture of impunity in Thailand, but not I think directed at this particular poor girl.The one interesting thing Ban Tomo mentioned was a wish to see what a commentator like Chris Baker would say.I'm guessing that Baker might also wish to consider why this incident has raised so much passion and why now.One point not I think stressed in these threads were that the victims were themselves middle class.I doubt whether a van full of Isaan peasants would have stirred up similar outrage among the Bangkok middle class.Oddly enough I checked some Facebook pages of some Thai friends/acquaintances.The ones who are ranting abuse at this foolish girl seem to be the same ones who were screaming violent and racist abuse at the Reds earlier this year - don't quite know what to make of that.

Incidentally I don't pay much attention to the girl's family showering preliminary "compensation" around and turning up at victims funerals.Not bad and not good - just not relevant except to burnish the defence case if accusations made - absurd in my view - of lack of empathy.You can bet that if that's what it took in those days (it wasn't) Rose and Jo Kennedy (that corrupt gangster) would have done the same if that was needed to keep Teddy out of the slammer.

Rexalex, shunima, Nisa - your calm and balanced postings, the civility of your disagreements, are so appreciated. So much of what I've read in this thread is just sad. Twenty-two years and a fair number of miles into my life in Thailand, with Thais, and still I have often to cringe at the utter ineptitude of so many, both Thai and non-Thai, both hi and loso, who have every preparation to do (and say) so much better than they have here. As a foreigner who's had the privilege of receiving a master degree from Chulalongkorn, and the very personal royal blessings that come with that, and also of living and working for several years among the subsistence rice farmers of the Emerald Triangle, I have some experience of both worlds. Thai civil society is at such a delicate stage of development right now, and this tragedy has the potential to become something of far greater proportions, and to result in grave damage to the place many of us love deeply. It seems to me to merit a higher level of discourse and I'm grateful for your contributions.

Could you expound please on the portion of your post I have highlighted? I think it is an interesting comment that is worthy of some further detail.

Just curious, do you not understand what he/she is referring to or are you bating him to speak more so you can debate this?

I only ask because it seems to be the most intelligent well thought and from the heart posts I have seen in this thread. To expound on it would only seem to take away from its perfect and non-biased concerned. Sometimes things are just so eloquently stated that expanding on it only causes it to lose its meaning or find ways to pick it apart.

Personally I thought it complete balderdash - sloppy,emotional and devoid of any real meaning - and <deleted> is the "emerald Triangle"?

And as for you, I think you have made your point very clearly, namely that the girl concerned should not be condemned or prejudged because of her background.I agree and I agreed the first of the numerous times you made it.

It is now for you to reflect (since you seem to have no idea) why there is so much anger about this case.Of course the girl's rights must be respected but your posts are ridiculously out of balance.It's not really about class envy at all but rather a widespread rage that the elite in this country get away with crimes and abuse through the exercise of influence and money.Whether this is relevant here or will be a factor in this case remains to be seen.So far so good.

I see a glimmer of hope for the young lady who caused the accident. She has a mother who has a lot of courage and a fair amount of compassion.

Agree. The family and the girl appear to be doing the right things and what they reasonably can at this point. So, far everything I have seen indicates this is a good family with a daughter who used very bad judgement resulting in horrific consequences..

And if found guilty should be punished accordingly.Agreed?

Keep in mind this is Thailand where 95% of the population are Buddhists and don't have the same thirst for revenge or eye-for-an-eye mentality and are much more forgiving and understanding than much of the western societies.

Always good to start the New Year with a cracking first class joke - since Thailand's culture is notoriously murderous and vengeful.

Where do these people get their naive ideas?

But she may get jail time because of all the haters who are making this into something they are clueless about and are somehow already convinced she is not only fully responsible for the accident but that she and her family set out, or at the least could care less, to kill 9 people because they could get away with it due to their last name. Yet, common sense tells us the further thing away from a typical 16-year old's mind is consequences or that these things will happen to them.

You cannot be serious and I should be careful on the evidence of your post about flinging around "clueless" epithets..As yet the facts are unclear.If however after due process the girl gets gaol time, that will be the considered decision of the Thai justice system, and has nothing to do with the "haters".If she is not the party to blame, she will be set free although we already know she was driving illegally.The question of whether the killings were unintentended is completely beside the point, whether the driver is 16 or 66.I do feel a certain sympathy for this girl and many attacks have been unfair.Your comments frankly don't strengthen her case, actually the opposite.

I have seen numerous comments by the haters about her good looks, the way she stood in the photo, her name, her skirt, her parent's occupation as well as numerous imagined assumptions about her upbring, thought process and so on which to any person with common sense are coming out of jealousness and not any thoughts or concerns with the Thai Justice System.

Really I haven't seen any such comments.Did you make them up?

I have seen a lot of concern however at how wealth and privilege in Thailand often evades justice.Whether this is a factor in this case is hard to say (let's see how the investigation pans out), but it's clear most Thais won't tolerate poor behaviour by the elite anymore.To his credit the PM has emphasized the law is blind.

I detest censorship, don't get me wrong. But when my innocent and valid comments are censored on Huffington Post and New Mandala and all these places in league with guys like Pravit and Thaksin and Amsterdam...who are all simultaneously bleating concerted cries demanding the end of the repressive Thai media censorship (whilst they ruthlessly censor the portals on which their cries are published)....well, I think it's probably evident these are not the people who have any legitimacy to be making what might well be an (otherwise) valid argument.

So (considering the quoted extract from your last post) you have decided to abandon reasonable argument and joined the ranks of the crazies?

Yes Jay, that is correct.

I have thrown myself onto the altar of insanity when I refuse to accept as valid / legitimate, the coordinated bleating for the 'end' of oppressive censorship which isn't *really* existent (definitely not in any way they claim, that's for sure - and definitely never applied as unjustly as they (themselves) apply censorship to avoid having to respond to pesky considerations they're much rather just ignore.

I expect imminent sectioning and buxom nurses and delightful medication...one time.

Sectioning not appropriate really and I would suggest stick with the nurses and delightful medication.Happy New Year.

It's not like reckless Van drivers are unknown in Thailand. The girl looks like she's for certain guilty of driving without a licence, but neither that, nor her parents' station makes her at fault for the accident. Let the investigation play out.

No reasonable person would disagree with what you say and one would have to be crazed to believe anybody's status makes them "at fault".However the context behind the wide spread anger is that people of this "station" in Thailand get away with motoring crimes on a regular basis through influence (to use a charitable expression).What's fascinating is that the climate is changing and even the PM has felt it necessary to point out the law is blind.Thais seem no longer prepared to tolerate the abuse of a privileged background.Still I suggest we make a diary note to check the status of this incident in say 12 months time.How the investigation plays out, to use your expression, will be fascinating.To date amidst the welter of speculation, much of it very foolish, nobody - apart from the police officers responsible - really has the faintest idea of the relevant facts.If I could single out one particularly stupid criticism of the poor girl it would be that she hasn't shown sufficient empathy for the victims.

[/font] I detest censorship, don't get me wrong. But when my innocent and valid comments are censored on Huffington Post and New Mandala and all these places in league with guys like Pravit and Thaksin and Amsterdam...who are all simultaneously bleating concerted cries demanding the end of the repressive Thai media censorship (whilst they ruthlessly censor the portals on which their cries are published)....well, I think it's probably evident these are not the people who have any legitimacy to be making what might well be an (otherwise) valid argument.

So (considering the quoted extract from your last post) you have decided to abandon reasonable argument and joined the ranks of the crazies?

And Jon Russel has a good post up about the happenings: http://asiancorrespondent.com/45000/social-networks-get-ugly-in-thailand-malaysia-and-indonesia/

I tend to agree with much of what Jon Russel says here including, and I quote:

"It has been suggested that disillusion with the system – and principally how her family connections may help her escape punishment – and lack of faith in the media to accurately report the news – an article The Nation suggesting that the girl’s age would acquit her of charges hardly helped – are chiefly responsible for the reaction and it is easy to see how and why people are emotional about the events, but the ugly side of social media paints Thai society as a savage, revenge-seeking mob."

It is this perceived culture of impunity that drives much of the anger, but it is a destructive and unhelpful process.I was equally disgusted by the ugly way the social media was used after the civilian deaths earlier this year.

Just because the girl comes from a certain family doesn't mean the laws and views need to be applied differently and it seems few people are waiting for facts before assuming she is going to get off without any punishment. She may be a selfish girl who cares little about this incident but she may also be suffering greatly now and for the rest of her life because of it ... how can we know what is going on in her head then or now?

Not to disparage what you have said, as I agree with most of it. If I had been the one driving and caused such horrific devastation I doubt I would have behaved any differently than the 16 year old girl, and we can all be careless and make mistakes. There but for the grace of God go I and all that. However, don't get overly generous here. I think it is extremely unlikely this person will suffer any serious consequences for her behavior. We can wait to be sure, but please don't start trying to convince any of us that someone like this is going to receive the same treatment that your or me or the average Somchai would receive in this situation. She may or may not have the moral character to feel bad about what she has done. We will probably never know.

But I can essentially guarantee that neither she nor whoever authorized her to drive that vehicle will be severely punished for that reprehensible act. There is a 2 tier justice system in this country, like it or not. And if she isn't personally devastated about what she has done, it means that there will be no justice for the victims. I don't like it, but that is the way it is. You are mistaken if you think this is not true.

That is something that should be mentioned, because such a cultural reality is a blight on this country. It is not an overreaction by a bunch of curmudgeons on Thai Visa.

Very sensible post indeed.

Your second para is so accurate.I wonder whether TAWP will be indicating his agreement on this occasion.

Funny, I think that the army shooting protesters was exactly what was needed at the time - the opposite of disgraceful, it was commendable. I suppose that's the freedom that democracy truly offers, but is unmentionable to a Red Shirt.

The kind of sickening and psychotic thinking behind this post in an ideal world would be very rare.Unfortunately in Thailand it isn't as evidenced by the clearly psychotic social networking response (particularly on Facebook) after the army's violent clearance, e,g the "Enjoy red shirts bodies" page.Some details follow:

http://publicintelligence.net/ufouo-open-source-center-thai-social-media-anti-red-shirt-campaigns/

It was obvious to many here last spring that most foreign journalists didn't understand things close enough to give accurate reporting.

It was obvious at the time and increasingly clear since then.

Obvious to you and those who think like you possibly.Most longer term residents (particularly those who have worked professionally here over many years) took a more nuanced and informed view.

I spoke to a Cambridge friend at the BBC who confirmed there had indeed been complaints from foreigners in Thailand.He said it was strange that many of them seemed to have been penned by semi literates who had difficulty in pulling their thoughts together in a rational argument.

My own view is that while there were some legitimate complaints about foreign reporting, it was on the whole quite fair.Much of the displeasure seemed to be because it touched on some home truths that the supine Thai press tended to ignore.Still I agree the Bangkok middle class, Thailand's "useful idiots" didn't enjoy the scrutiny.

I think even Thaksin obsessives realise this government would rather have k. Thaksin stay away than return to Thailand to be apprehended. It's only when k. Noppadon or k. Prompong suggest k. Thaksin will go see some commssion or another that the government starts it's spin again to keep k. Thaksin hopping around, unsettled. No surprise what so ever.

You state a rational position with which I agree.

However on this very forum (the usual suspects of course) there are those who maintained he is bound, for fear of extradition, to hop in a panic from one third world hell hole to another.It's a dreamworld they inhabit, fuelled I agree by the likes of little Kasit, because long ago they lost the ability to think rationally about Thaksin and his influence.

Mind you, some civilised countries choose the next best option: 'no visa'.

That's a very valid point.

Still generally on this subject the public has been fed a pack of lies by little Kasit and others.Many Thaksin obsessives on this forum were taken in.

May be it 's time for me to start to learn English. Can anyone explain to me why PM Abhisit 'admitted' that k. Thaksin is living in Dubai? Did the PM try to hide him there?

Nothing to admit to. He simply stated that it is known Thaksin lives there.

The interesting tidbit is that he stated that the extradition treaty is not good enough in Dubai,

which may have quite a bit why Thaksin has chosen Dubai.

That's possible.

It's also possible that Abhisit was acknowledging extradition is unlikely anywhere given the primary political motivation of any request.He's not going to acknowledge that openly but unlike many who have ranted about this subject the PM is an intelligent man who understands these matters well.No civilised country would extradite Thaksin.

Here's an open question: Who's the biggest liar in this quartet?

Amsterdam, Noppadam, Thaksin or Jatupon?

I know it's a tough question, so don't bother wracking your brain for an answer.

Anywho, the more I hear about this 'leaded' report (particularly with Jatupon's name attached to it), the more it smells like sewer gas. How hard would it be for an insider like Jatupon to get some documents which looked official (from DSI or some related agency), and simply doctor them up a bit to suit his agenda? His agenda being to besmrich the government by any means, with no concern for truth. Have you ever doctored or fudged a document? I have. It's the easiest thing to do, with scissors, a smidgen of glue, some white-out and access to a copy machine. What's the worse that could happen to Jatupon if charged? ....not worse than the legal charges he would face without the parliamentary immunity he already flaunts.

But the awkward fact remains.Unarmed civilians were shot in the streets of Bangkok by the army.Most fair minded people recognise that the army acted generally professionally in a difficult but necessary task.However the deaths of civilians (and others) needs to be properly investigated. Politicians and generals need to be made accountable.This has not yet happened nor in my opinion is it likely to.

One can reflect on these points and consider their implications.Alternatively one can rant hysterically (forged documents, pleaaaase...) about Amsterdam,Jatuporn,Thaksin etc... anything other than contemplate the reality rather than the means by which it became generally known.

The fact that you believe the DSI chief over Reuters says enough I think.

Snarky comment...? And how did Reuters know for sure they had received the report from a genuine member of the DSI?

Just another case of reds distorting the truth to spread hate.

I suggest you re-read your post.

You make a highly speculative and unsubstantiated comment, and then proceed to draw a conclusion from it.

Analogy? I only say I do not condemn people or current organisations for the wrong done almost a generation ago.

As for ISOC not having changed, your opinion to which you are entitled

(totally of topic, but 'easily the best armies'?. You're a friend of Rich Lott I guess )

You miss the point.ISOC essentially hasn't changed.The others you mention have completely.

Who is Rich Lott?

I am quite interested in the comparative strength of the military in WW2.Although the Russians made the greatest contribution I think the German army - possibly just ahead of the Japanese army - was man for man the highest quality.There are some troubling questions about the British army performance (and even more troublingly the abysmal Australian performance) and Max Hastings has written interestingly about both these subjects.Americans began poorly but quite formidable at the end.Rommel thought the New Zealanders were the best troops he had to face.

No offence, but stupid question. Of course I'm aware of what the ISOC in it's previous incarnations has done, just google/yahoo a bit and you can read about it. I try to ignore nothing, not even provocative remarks.

Ah so the question is stupid.The vehemence (and silliness) of that comment suggests I have struck a raw nerve.

The ISOC is an organisation with blood on its hands, and still has the same repressive and if necessary murderous profile it always did.I would have thought that was a point you might have mentioned in your generally benign remarks on it.But perhaps you hadn't started googling then.

Well at least you started to reply to the contents of the post.

Just as I do not condemn Dr. Weng and a few others for being communists in the 70's, I do not want to hold 70's/80's repression against the ISOC of today. I've even forgiven the current generation of Germans for what happened in my country in 40-45. That's how benign and forgiving I am

Analogy doesn't really work I'm afraid.Germans as with the Japanese have abandoned their martial past (easily the best armies in WW2).Thai commies have become standard harmless lefties or metamorphised into capitalists.As for ISOC nothing has changed and it remains committed as ever to a repressive role and defending the indefensible, attack dogs for the greedy elite (I would have said entrenched a year or so ago but clearly its days are numbered).

No offence, but stupid question. Of course I'm aware of what the ISOC in it's previous incarnations has done, just google/yahoo a bit and you can read about it. I try to ignore nothing, not even provocative remarks.

Ah so the question is stupid.The vehemence (and silliness) of that comment suggests I have struck a raw nerve.

The ISOC is an organisation with blood on its hands, and still has the same repressive and if necessary murderous profile it always did.I would have thought that was a point you might have mentioned in your generally benign remarks on it.But perhaps you hadn't started googling then.