kriswillems

Right, you just have to remember it. Deriving the initial consonant from the tone is difficult, but it could help to reduce the number of possiblities. And even if you know the consonant, you're often still not sure how to write the words.

For instance: how would you write NAA (falling tone)?

Well, there's only one intial 'N" sound in Thai,so it should be น.

But even if you know this you still have 2 possibilities:

หน้า: face

น่า : should

ศ is much less used than ส, and is often used in words that don't have a pure Thai root. If you break up the borrowed words into parts and remember the parts it might help you to write other words.

โทร(ะ): far or remote.

ศัพท์: word.

If you remember these 2 words you already know how to write many other words (the Thai words for: television โทรทัศน์, telegram โทรเลข, vocabulary คำศัพท์, meaningless ไม่ได้ศัพท์,....).

Knowing which final consonant you've to use is even more hard, because Thai has only 3 final consonant sounds: "p t k" and there are many consonants.

There's a very good reason why Thai children spend so much time with dictation exercises and why many adult Thai people can't write very good.

kriswillems - I like the look of your 10 lines to get the tones right, but can someone give me some idea of how to tell a live from a dead syllable - the rules for no tone mark seem to depend on this somewhat.

Here is a bit bigger version of my tone rules (only 13 lines):

a life syllable ends on a n, ng, m, w sound or long vowel

dead syllables are all the rest (p, t, k sound or short vowel)

with tone mark:

follow the mark

exception: intial low class consonant -> take the next tone mark.

no tone mark:

-Live syllables

mid tone

exception: intial high class consonant -> rising tone

-Dead syllables

low tone

exception: intial low class consonant -> short vowel = high tone, long vowel = falling tone

A silent intial "hoh hiep" or "oh aang" are not pronounced but also count as intial consonants.

What I left out:

- list of consonants per class (low, mid, high).

- intial and final consonant sound of each consonant

- definition of long and short vowels

- the sound of all vowels

- vowels that change shape in closed syllables

- vowels that are not written

- group inheritance of tones

- special letters and letter sequences (from indic and pali)

The 3 last are rather complicated because there are exceptions.

If you know all this, you can read. Well, you too practise a lot and check you your pronounciation will a Thai speaker, but it's really not that complicated as you might think. Learning to speak takes much more effort than learning basic reading. It's really useful to learn to read if you're serious about studying Thai.

The tone rules look complicated, but they are not that complicated if you look at what different intial consonant classes have in common and think about the differences between the classes as exceptions.

This is how I remember the tone rules (only 10 lines):

with tone mark:

- follow the mark

- exception: low class consonants -> take the next tone mark.

no tone mark:

- Live syllables

mid tone

exception: high class consonants -> rising tone

- Dead syllables

low tone

exception: low class consonants -> short vowel = high tone, long vowel = falling tone

(If left out details as: the use of "hoh hiep" and "ooh aang" as initial consonant, the defintion of life and dead syllables, intial and final consonant sounds, inheritance of tones between syllables).

I agree with the remark of some people that there are exceptions in Thai language. The exceptions have to be remembered. Thai people also need to remember them. Besides the exceptions the Thai writing system is very logical. Learning to pronounce English correctly is much more complicated because you've to remember much more exceptions. German and Spanish are also phonetic languages, but in German or Spanish you don't know which tone you need to use when pronouncing the words, so Thai writing system is even more logical about this.

Thanks Expat_4_life

You've convinced me. I'll go to have a look in August. If I need to start at the beginners level, I'll just have to use my dictionary again (for knowing the Thai word behind the transliterations). Maybe I could do a beginners level course before noon (just to reverse) and an intermediate course in the afternoon. Nice to have someone on this webboard that can actually compare 2 schools.

I guess you need a bit of everything. If you're serious about Thai you should also learn to read (besides speaking, listening and grammar). I know it's hard, meaning that you need perseverance and you've to practise of lot, but it's not complicated. In fact, I think the Thai reading system is much more logical than English.

Learning to read you can do by yourself. You just have to remember the tone rules and the consonant and vowel sounds. You only need a Thai person to correct your pronounciation.

Learning to read first is like taking a shortcut on rough road. It's hard but, you'll reach your destination faster.

Thai people will compliment you when you can speak a bit Thai (even if it's not good). That's their culture and their way to be polite. If your Thai is getting better you'll see that you'll get less compliments and they will try to help you by telling they don't understand or if possible they will correct you (only if they feel you don't loose face).

Do you by accident use internet access via satelite? Satelite modems do "html prefetching", this means that they load several web-pages into the memory of the modem even before the user has clicked the link.

Satelite modems might get automaticly blocked by the server of thai-language web-page.

At this moment I am thinking about 2 schools because i read about 2 foreigners on this webboard that managed to pass the pratom 6 tests. These schools are:

AAA Thai language center

PiamMitr

I can already read an write and I would hate to go back to the "transliteration only" way of teaching. Do the teachers in these schools always use Thai script or are the courses based on phonetic script? Can you ask the teacher to (also) write everything in Thai script?

At PiamMitr Language School they use a phonetic system in the beginner level courses (first 3 months) after which they teach the reading and writing (months 4 and 5). So basically all transliteration is history starting in month 4. From this point onwards, Thai script only.

Since you can read and write already, I assume you will be in one of the intermediate or advanced courses where you will find all materials and instruction is in Thai script.

I passed the Pratom 6 test after studying at Piammitr. Now I am studying their more advanced course offerings. See you there.

Most people start learning a language by talking. I started by learning to read (via self-study and help of wife). So I can read much better than I can understand spoken conversations. I read at normal speed but I am slow in talking. So, probably I'll need to start at a level that's not too high. So, I would like to know if in the handbooks of the beginners level courses also show the Thai script (besides the phonetic script). The teacher that I have now (in Europe, only 6 hours per week), writes some things in phonetic script only. This is very annoying, especially because she doesn't put any tone marks on the phonetic script. So it's up to me to guess what she really wrote (I've to use the dictionary a lot).

I'll be moving to Thailand in August (house is sold, still have to work 3 months). Probably you'll be finished by then.

People that reach pratom 6 must be in my opinion pretty smart. I am surprised that so many people of Unity managed to pass this test. I can honestly tell that some people in my classroom never in their life will be able to pass this test. They wouldn't even pass a pratom 1 test. The difference in level is huge.... so the teaching method of unity should be really good...

At this moment I am thinking about 2 schools because i read about 2 foreigners on this webboard that managed to pass the pratom 6 tests. These schools are:

AAA Thai language center

PiamMitr

I can already read an write and I would hate to go back to the "transliteration only" way of teaching. Do the teachers in these schools always use Thai script or are the courses based on phonetic script? Can you ask the teacher to (also) write everything in Thai script?

can anyone recommend the best school in pattaya ?

There are many schools in Pattaya. Most offer only private courses. I've followed a private course a PLC school (Pattaya klaang, a bit up-hill, about 150 meters from carrefour). The teacher didn't put any structure into the courses, because she didn't have any experience teaching somebody that is not at an absolute beginners level. They had a coursebook for beginners but not for the next level. The teacher worked very hard and she tried to help me as much as possible, but she was unprepared for systematic teaching at a bit higher level.

Some people go to AUA in Pattaya. AUA has a good reputation but I've heard that the level in Pattaya is lower than at other places. In Pattaya you've a mix of people. There are foreigners with a doctoral degree that teach at universities, but there are also farangs that ran away from their own country because they were not "talented" enough to get a decent life in their own country. This mix might block the more talented people.

I would also like to know a good place to study in Pattaya.

I didn't find any good place until now and next time I think I'll go to BKK. Probably there are more expats and english teachers in the courses and less tourists. So, it should be easier to find a course that goes a bit further than an absolute beginners level.

It all depends on your goal and current knowledge of Thai language and your talent for studying languages.

Goal is being fluent in Thai:

- learn to read and write and speak

- start with reading

- you'll need more than 60 hours

Goal is basic conversation and you've no excisting knowledge:

- learn to speak only

Goal is basic conversation and you can already speak a bit Thai:

- learn to speak and spend a bit time on reading and writing too.

- you'll not be fluent in reading, but you can manage to understand some road signs.

If you've only 60 hours, the best is to leave some time between 2 schooldays. Don't stay in the school longer than 3 hours per day (you're brain will be cooked if it's a one-by-one course). If you plan to study at home, you could take a free day after every day with a course. That day you can reverse at home what you've seen in the course.

I followed a Spanish course for 240 hours and I was almost fluent in Spanish after that. I studied about 1000 hours Thai language (mainly self-study, but I am also in a course) and I am still at a beginners level. Most foreigners never get any further than a beginners level. 60 hours is really not much, but still much better than nothing.

Where did you sign up (which school)?A private course or a classroom course?

I got the phone number of a senior official in the capital from a website (the koh kong website, if I remember correctly) and when I was asked for extra money, I said no.

I also had a phone number of an important cambodian official with me. I downloaded the namecard from the internet, probably we both had the same namecard. I said I would call this person, the border officer called his collegues and they came all together to stand in front of the window and they laughed at me. They were totally not impressed. I still didn't want to pay and I was at the point where I wanted to copy their names. The father of my wife (a Thai person) got scared and he paid the 500 Baht for me! I really didn't appreciate that.

As you said, now I am older (34) and now I accept corruption in Thailand and Cambodia. I always complain, write a letter, or whatever, but I just pay. It's not worth the trouble.

They also scammed me that way. If you want to get a cambodian exit stamp they ask between 200 to 500 baht. If you don't give it, they just don't give you the exit stamp (I tried to refuse, they just laughed at me). I asked for a receipt. They wouldn't give it.

I complained at the cambodian embassy in BKK about it, also wrote letter, it all didn't help.

Corruption is widely accepted in South-East Asia as being normal and there's nothing you can do about it. We've to learn to live with it. Write a letter, file a complaint, maybe some day there will be one honest politician that actually cares. Until then don't get upset about it.

เ็ล็น takes the mid tone (sorry for nitpicking here, but all tones are equally normal) and has no tone marker in its spelling.

I didn't write เ็ล็น, I wrote เล็่น (with a small mai eek on top). If this word would excist it would be falling tone, just as เล่น.

It's almost not visible on a monitor, that's probly why you assumed I wrote เ็ล็น (which is indeed a midtone word).

I know เล็่น (with mai eek) is not a correct word, I just wanted to express that the vowel is pronounced short.

That's very interesting Richard. I am studying Thai from books, that means I learn to read and write first and talk later.

When trying to listen and talk I very often noticed that words are not exactly pronounced as I would expect. Most of the times that is because I got it wrong but sometimes I have no explanation.

What do you mean by /aw/? Do you mean เอา? Could you give an example?

If somebody has examples of an unexpected pronounciation of a words, please share the words with us

I just want to add that pronounciation of

น้ำ

is an exception in Thai. It's pronounced a with longer vowel than other words that end on ำ (for instance ย้ำ). Although pronounce differently all ำ sounds are officially long vowels.

Tones marks can also change the length of a vowel. For instance in

เล่น

This is pronouced as

เล็่น

Does somebody have on overview of the relation between the tone marks and the vowel lengths? Or is there an overview of exceptions?

The cops involved in this deserve to be in jail for life. Pigs like this are the reason why Thailand has so many problems. The police here need to be cleaned up with a purge by the military. The policehave always been the mafia. They deserve no respect from the people of Thailand.

The police and the army are 2 of Thailands most corrupt organisations and they are more powerful than any democratic political system. The democratic political system is only "tolerated" by the army as long as there enough money and power going to the army. Although there's some tention between the police and the army, they will never try to clean-up the other. If the army would clean up the police the next step would be cleaning up themselves, something they clearly don't want to do.

- อย่ากได้

- อย่าก

just want to point out the spelling of อยาก

hope you dont mind

cheers.

MiG

EDIT: to highlight the correct spelling

Right!

I don't have a Thai keyboard here so I copied "อย่าก" from the text of meadish_meatball. I didn't check for mistakes. อ is a (silent) middle class consonant, ก at the end makes it a dead syllable, dead syllables without tone mark that start with a middle class consonant always have a low tone, no need to add a ่ (mai eek).

Thanks for the remark.

I would like to add : อย่ากได้

And I would like to make an attempt to translate these words:

- เอา means "to take".

In a (simple) restaurant you would say "I take coffee" when you've made your choice.

I take coffee: ผม เอา กาแฟ

- ต้องการ means "would like to have + noun" or "would like to + verb", when trying to be very polite.

At your the home of your boss you would say "I would like to have coffee", or "I would like to drink coffee".

I would like to have coffee: ผม ต้องการ กาแฟ

I would like to drink coffee: ผม ต้องการ ดื่ม กาแฟ

- ต้องการ means also "need to" or "need to have", but it's much less strong than "must" (which is ต้อง).

- อย่ากได้ means "want to have + noun"

At the home of your close friend you would say "I want to have coffee", when he asks you what you want to drink.

I want to have coffee: ผม อย่ากได้ กาแฟ

- อย่าก means "want + verb"

At the home of your close friend you would say "I want to drink a coffee", when he asks you what you want to drink.

I want to drink a coffee: ผม อย่าก ดื่ม กาแฟ

the silent อ might or might not be considred as an initial consonant sound.

In cambodia they refused to give me an exit stamp unless I paid 500 baht bribe.

I refused and told them I would write about this to the local newpaper. I even had the namecard of the cambodian minister of interior affairs with me. But it made no impression on them whatsoever.

The Thai immigration officer refused to let me enter Thailand without a cambodian exit stamp.

I went back to the cambodian side and paid the 500 baht bribe and got the exit stamp.

The whole group of immigration officers just laughed at me.

They refused to give me a recuit for that 500 Baht.

I went to the cambodian embassy in Bangkok and wrote a complaint letter.

They told me I was not treated correctly, but they didn't seem to care too much about it (in fact I think they enjoyed that another farang could be ripped off).

They promissed me to let me know something but I never got any answer on that letter.

Cambodian officials seem to be even more corrupt that thai officials.

Thanks Meadish_sweetball, you gave me this advice before in another thread.

And your advice is actually pretty good.

At this moment I read about 1 page per day (easy language).

I translate all words I don't know and I try to understand the sentense structure.

I try to read the sentences with the correct tones and ask my Thai wife if she actually understands what I am reading.

For some reason my (Thai) wife is not very interested in helping me to study Thai.

I can ask her things but she doesn't really teach me.

Before I had the feeling I was blocked, but since I started reading Thai text, instead of studying from language books and web-sites, I am progressing again.

My goal is:

- to pass pratom 6 test

- be able to have a simple conversation on the telephone

- be able to understand Thai movies

- use Thai in every day life and work

- to be able to make a joke in Thai

I don't want to reach the level of an highly educated Thai, but I want to know the language well enough so it's not a blocking factor in my social life between Thai people or in my work.

In the middle of the year I move Thailand and I'll join a full time language course over there. The problem is that I'll be living in Sri Racha. The closest full time classroom language course is in Pattaya at AUA. I've heard AUA uses (only) transliterations and I don't want to ge back on that track, so I don't know yet where to study.

And my last experience with studying Thai in Pattaya made me think that the courses are aimed at people that go to Thailand for different reasons than me...

Livng in BKK (from Monday to Friday) only for studying is possible but I would prefer to stay at home in Sri Racha.

All suggestions are welcome.

1. I started with the book "teach yourself Thai"

Good book with clear explanations, well structured, but the transliterations are very strange. Focus on Thai script.

2. I used the books B.P Becker (Thai for beginners/intermediate learners)

The books are good and not expensive. The transliterations are better, but I would advice you to focus on Thai script.

3. I follow a Thai language (classroom) course in Europe (only 3 hours per week)

The teacher is very good! She used to be a teacher in Thailand, she is a very talented teacher (4 years experience teaching Thai for foreigners and many years teaching Thai children).

4. I followed a private course in Thailand (only 20 hours)

The teacher had only experience with teahing absolute beginners. The course was not structured. This was compensated by the fact that it was one-by-one teaching, which allows you to study at your own speed (faster than the classroom course).

5. I read the official Thai reading books from primary school

These books are great! But you need a Thai person to help you to translate and correct your pronounciation.

6. I listened to the Pimsleur courses (30 lessons)

They are good, but they stop at a low level or beginners level. Even if you know everything on the CDs perfectly your level is still very low. But they are great to start with.

7. I used the Rosetta stone program

It's expensive and I don't like it. It's really boring studying Thai with these CDs.

8. I read the maanii readers on the www.learningthai.com

Great!

9. I used other parts of the learningthai web-site

Great, not as good as the maanii readers.

10. For translations I use www.thai2english.com and www.sealang.net/thai

thai2english is better for english to Thai translations. For thai to english sealang is better. With sealang you can search on transliterations (IPA).

11. Talking to my 4 year old Thai niece

This is a great way to learn to be speak, because children never blame you when you make a mistake, they just correct you

In my case the courses where much more useful than self-study.

Studying thai completely by yourself (with books or CDs) is extremely hard.

First I used transliterations, after that I switched to Thai script. If I could start over again, I would skip the transliterations and immediately move to Thai script. I really had the feeling the transliteration were blocking my progress.

I started to study Thai in october last year (6 months now).

At this moment I can read, write (with errors) and have a simple conversation. I can understand a normal conversation.

I can hear the difference between the tones and can reproduce the tones and read them correctly (but slowly).

Things that are blocking me at the moment are:

- I am slow in speaking, reading and understanding

- My vocabulary needs to be extented

- I don't understand slang language

- I have problems understanding the structure of a sentence or I use the wrong structure

Until now I didn't find the magical trick that allows me to improve my Thai very quickly.

I know only this: the more hours per day I study, the better my language becomes.

Studying Thai language requires discipline, motivation and HARD WORK.

If you got your non-immigrant-O based on marriage you should be able to get a 60 day extention based on visiting wife. You can only get this extention once.

I am sorry about that Sunbelt.

English is not my native language.

I didn't mean to sound like that.

I understand you don't make the rules.

"sales of goods that the seller is not a manufacture", that's still a very big group, which includes the small shops that just sell things without producing them. Just by looking around at all the shops in my village I expected this was the biggest group. I am suprised that the 70% group is bigger than the 80% group. Thanks for the information.

I just tried to point out that under the rules as they have been explained to you it's almost impossible for a self-employed Thai person to support her husband because the high fiscal deductions if you don't prove your expenses.

For instance, a self-employed wife with with 80% deduction would need a turnover of 2.4 million baht (480000 * 5).

I believe the maximum turnover a self-employed person may have is 1.8 million. I might be wrong about that.

So this wife can't support her husband although somebody like that is usually much more rich than an employee that get's 480K per year.

A self employed person with 70% deduction would need a turnover of 1.6 million.

Further on this interpretation of the rules also means that "clause 10, number 1 on PND90" should be 420000 or more for an employee and 480000 or more for a self-employed person, which is a bit odd.

And I didn't even mention other complications when not taking into account the income before deductions.

For instance:

How about the income from rent? Should we consider the income before or after deductions? Or will it be before deductions for employees and after deductions for self-employed people?

And the income from interest on savings? Before or after deductions? And will this be treated different for self-employed people and employees?

If you look at some parts of the income before deduction and other parts after deduction everything very soon becomes totally unclear and very complicated, especially when self-employed people and employees are treated differently. The number written in clause 10, number 1 on PND90 would have no meaning at all, not for self-employed people, but also not for employees.

This subject is much more complicated than the 90 out of 180 calculation, and immigration doesn't even seem to get that correct....so, to be honest I don't trust much about what they are saying (to you or to me) because their interpretation might change from day to day.

Have a look here:

http://dungtrin.com/

http://multimedia.dungtrin.net/

You can download the PDF files and read along with the mp3 files.