kriswillems

Situation:

Most young married couples have no way to have a calm life in Thailand, no matter ho much money they have.

1. The family needs to 40K month

2. Average Thai income is <10K

3. Farang has to work to get >30K

4. Thai government doesn't like farang to work in Thailand

5. Farang need a work permit which he can not get

6. Farang can't find a legal job (unless he's an expert or experienced English teacher)

7. Family gets less than 40K official income

8. Farang is kicked out

9. Families are broken

Solutions:

1. Let farang to be corrupt (just like Thai people) and pay tax on income he doesn't have.

2. Runs to the border every 3 months until you're 50 and travel to singapore once a year.

Contrasts:

* Old bar-hanging single guy of +50 years is allowed to stay in Thailand just showing 800,000 baht on his OWN bank account, while his neighbours living 50 metres further, a young and happily married couple with children, are kicked out and seperated.

* Not even one western country treats foreign partners in such an inhumane way as Thailand does.

Ok I'll give my own view of life here and about the rules.

I'm also young and married.

Its so stupid they make me&my wife lie about our personal income just to prove them we have 40K a month (which we have as we make our own biz).

But &lt;deleted&gt;?

If you're running a bussiness making 40 K a month (as you say in a parentesis) what's there to lie about?

Frankly, it beats me why people, in their working age, makes such a fuss about a requirement asking them to make a monthly income of lousy 20 K per person. If they can't make even that little ... how good can they be?

The chance a Thai person gets 40K/month is pretty small.

Tell me what the average Thai income is, substract that number from 40K and you know how much the average foreigner needs to get. It's for sure more than 20K. Then take into account that for 95% of all jobs a foreigner can not get a working permit and then you'll understand the fuss.

Advise Please I am uk citizen with income from my uk based company. I came here early sept on 60 day tourist be with thai girlfriend to start plans to marry now everything agreed for marriage end of feb 07. (Intended to do border runs to stay) have done 2 runs to border my last run due mid december. Been advised non immigrant "b" are difficult to get so i am wondering what next ? Maybe KL for 90 tourist or non imm "o". Have set up home here and dont need or want all the hassle of wasted time energy and money of going back to uk to get non imm "o" . How easy is it to get single entry 90 day visa in KL ?

If you're working in Thailand you should be having a non-immigrant-B and work permit. If not this is my advice:

I would travel to KL when your last (of 3) 30 day stamps expires. There you can get a single entry tourist visa which can be extended by 30 days (you'll probably not get a non-immigrant-o because you're not married yet at that time).

After the 90 days expire you can go for a multiple-entry non-immigrant-O visa in KL because you're already married by then.

You could also have the official marriage a bit earlier to avoid one trip to KL.

Married people have very often no other possiblity than staying with their wife or husband in Thailand. Very often the Thai person needs to take care of his/her parents. Children are expected to do this. Or maybe she/he is homesick and wants to life in Thailand. So, the foreign husband/wife is forced to life with them in thailand.

As I belong in this bracket, young married couples, I can tell that it is really difficult to plan anything in Thailand for the future knowing that it is very difficult to stay permanently. Even buying a house is a battle when deciding as it is very clear that it is not going to be a conjugal property. Relocating to another country is always an option for us when the kids are old enough.

For now, taking care of my wife's old dude is one priority so I have to sacrifice a while.

I am also in this situation. The uncertainty about what will happen with us in the future and the total dependency on the 40K/month is also driving me crazy. The old 400K rule was much better. The cultural differences already make an inter-racial marriage hard and the new and harsh visa rules will only result in more broken marriages.

If you think about your time in Thailand as a sacrifice you'll have a very hard time to stay together, because it's not sure yet that your wife is going to do the same sacrifice when you'll be returning to your home country. I've lived one year in Thailand and I'll be returning next year. I know the problems that are waiting for me. I think the best attitude is to think about your life in Thailand as being permanent. Humans can't build happiness on sacrafices (even if they are temporary) and false expectations.

I'll reserve a certain budget for building a life in Thailand. I'll do my very best to make something out of life there and don't waste my time. I'll keep a spare budget to return to my home country if Thailand is really going to kick me out (which might very well happen someday).

They will need to make 40K/month or they will loose their one year extension, no matter how much money they have.

I really believe most people with the money to stay will find a way to stay. The 40k family income opens up the spouse income which should prove very beneficial to many couples in the age of both partners in a marriage normally working (which is what I see in middle class Thai society these days).

Sure they will find a way, they have no other choice, but it will be hard for them.

I especially think about the couples living in the less rich parts of Thailand where 40K is still a lot of money. I also think about those couples that are not highly educated and do low paying jobs. Before many of those couples could stay in Thailand based on 400,000 baht on a bank account. Now the foreign partners will be forced to do expensive visa runs and fly out every year to get a new multiple entry non-immigrant-O visa.

If you compare the new Thai laws with the visa laws of most Western countries you'll come to the following conclusion:

- For tourists Thai law is fair and even very flexible because tourists have the possibility to stay practically the whole year in Thailand based on tourist visas.

- For retired people Thai law is exceptionally flexible and open

- For young married couples or young people taking care of Thai children Thai law is very strict

Tourists staying here on 30-days stamps always have the option to return to their home country. Many countries have limitations on the number of days a tourist can stay in their country. I think that is logical. A tourist should be a tourist and not a permanent resident. Thailand is certainly not an exception.

People older than 50 are allowed to stay in Thailand if they have more than 800,000 baht on their account. Not many countries allow foreigners to stay in their country because they are old and have money. So, I think Thai law is very good for this group.

Married people have very often no other possiblity than staying with their wife or husband in Thailand. Very often the Thai person needs to take care of his/her parents. Children are expected to do this. Or maybe she/he is homesick and wants to life in Thailand. So, the foreign husband/wife is forced to life with them in thailand.

Not all Thai women are married with old foreign men (older than 50) and there are also many couples of which both husband and wife are young. These couples will have a very hard time since the introduction of the new law. They will need to make 40K/month or they will loose their one year extention, no matter how much money they have. Most countries allow permanent residence based on marriage, Thailand not. So Thailand is certainly an exception and is in my opinion Thai law is not humane for married couples.

Yes it's possible but you would probably need to leave your car on the Thai side. Going with a "visa run bus" is probably cheaper and you'll have less problems with the totally corrupt cambodian border officers.

Sunbelt,

The information of the gross sales tax I got from this WEB-site:

http://www.thailand-accounting.com/tax.html

Operators whose gross earnings from the domestic sale of goods and services exceed Thai Baht 600,000.-, but are less than Thai Baht 1,200,000.- per year, can choose between paying a gross turnover tax of 1.5 % or the normal VAT. However, operators paying the gross turnover tax may not offset this tax by charging VAT to their customers in any step of production

This web-site sates the same:

http://www.asiatradingonline.com/taxvat.htm

If your wifes turnover is 350K and you're paid 15K/month, you'll never reach the 40K common income limit required for a visa. If you've 70% expenses on 350K your wifes net income is 105K/year or 8750 Baht/month. Your common income would be 23750 Baht/month, so less than 40K.

So, there's a very high chance your turnover would need to be higher than 600K/year. And if the 2 web-sites are correct you'll be paying gross turnover tax of 1.5%.

Is the information about the gross sales tax outdated?

Yes this information is out dated (gross sales tax no longer exist). By the way, 7% Vat in fact starts at sales of 1,800,000 in the year.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

Thanks Sunbelt. I am impressed by your wide knowledge. It's very hard to find up-to-date information on the internet. Next year in July I'll be moving to Thailand. I'll need to get a WP (for working in my wifes business) and I need to get a 1 year visa extention. My wife will be self-employed with a turnover of 1 million baht. I will arrive in Thailand with a multiple entry non-immogrant-o visa. Do you also offer legal services in Chonburi province or can you advice us another office that can assist us (with WP application and 1 year extention?).

PS. even a thai government web-site still talk about the gross turnover tax:

http://www.boi.go.th/english/how/taxation.asp

or

http://www.thaigov.go.th/en/non-resident/v...7&M_CODE=49

Sunbelt,

The information of the gross sales tax I got from this WEB-site:

http://www.thailand-accounting.com/tax.html

Operators whose gross earnings from the domestic sale of goods and services exceed Thai Baht 600,000.-, but are less than Thai Baht 1,200,000.- per year, can choose between paying a gross turnover tax of 1.5 % or the normal VAT. However, operators paying the gross turnover tax may not offset this tax by charging VAT to their customers in any step of production

This web-site sates the same:

http://www.asiatradingonline.com/taxvat.htm

If your wifes turnover is 350K and you're paid 15K/month, you'll never reach the 40K common income limit required for a visa. If you've 70% expenses on 350K your wifes net income is 105K/year or 8750 Baht/month. Your common income would be 23750 Baht/month, so less than 40K.

So, there's a very high chance your turnover would need to be higher than 600K/year. And if the 2 web-sites are correct you'll be paying gross turnover tax of 1.5%.

Is the information about the gross sales tax outdated?

so assuming your wife makes 40,000 per month and she pays 2000 baht per month tax, she could even deduct 30,000 per year in spouse allowance? meaning zero tax..

Thais and foreigners pay the same income tax.

If one of the two partners has zero income the other partner may use a 30000 baht spouse allowance (else not). The income tax would be then:

(((40000*12) - 60000 -30000 -30000 -100000)*0,1)/12 = 2167 Baht/month

In other words, the spouse allowance in not subtracted from your tax, it's substracted from your income. You'll still be paying tax although a bit less.

Most countries have a double taxation agreement with Thailand. That means that you either pay tax on your income in your home country or in Thailand but not both. Most double taxations agreements and the details of which tax needs to be paid where can be found online. It's complicated and if you're talking about a lot of money it might be smart to seek for advice of an expert.

PS. In some cases the double taxation agreements is more a disadvantage than an advantage. This is the reason why some foreigners keep an official recidence in their home country, and they pay tax in their home countries just as if they would be living there.

the formula to calculate the personal income tax can be found on:

http://www.rd.go.th/publish/6045.0.html

If you're an employee and your partner works too and you get 40K/month, you'll be paying:

(((40,000 * 12) - 60,000 - 30,000 -100000)*0.1)/12 = 2417 baht/month

The new police order is certainly not a good thing for young married couples that have not been using the 400K rule before. It's very hard to guarantee your income will be 40K/month until you're 50.

Going is on visa runs is not much cheaper than paxing tax on income you might not really have.

Airline ticket to singapore : 7000 Baht

Multiple entry o visa: 5000 baht

3 visa runs: 6000 Baht

All together: 18K baht + a lot of worries.

Suppose you can only prove 20K it might be smart to find another 20K and just pay tax on that. For instance your wife could give some rooms of the house for rent and she might be getting 20K from that.

Just an example:

Your wife is making 20K /month as an employee.

Your wife gives property for rent (for instance to her parents) and gets 20K/month from that.

You're not working.

She'll be paying 18800 baht tax/year.

You'll not be paying any tax.

You'll get a 1 year extention.

There are many solutions to get 40K/month (even if you don't really have it). The best solutions are those solutions where each of the partners gets an amount of about 20K/month.

Thailand will become the only country in the world where are corrupt in order to pay MORE tax.

Today I applied for a one year extension at The Immigration Office Phuket. I am 53 and have a child with a Thai nationality.

Had a multiple non O and the in December I have to leave or get an extension of stay.

Have read some forum messages that when you are 50+ and have a child with a Thai Nationality that you dont have to show funds in the bank or having a 40K/month income.

The Immigration officer told me that I do have to show funds on a bankaccount or a proof of income.

So the one year extension was refused.

But he seemed to have a hard time with it, he was reading the new rules again and again.

So what can I do, try to aply again in Bangkok or are the rules correct understood by the immigration officer and if they are that means a flight to KL.

The text is very confusing. It says that that Thai children may take care of their foreign parents if the parents are older than 50 (No income required). But most people read this sentence the other way around: "A foreigner older than 50 can take care of his Thai children". The latter interpretation is not correct. Maybe the officer was also confused. Many people on this forum (and i was one of them) misunderstood this part of the new police order.

So the solution for me is that as I have 1 year non 'O' nultiple visa based on mariage. (from my country).

that will expired on january 2008. is just to go for the lowest option 350K and get the work permit.

then few months before I'll go and update it for higher income and I will qualified to apply for mariage visa at bkk (as after the update we'll have together income of 40K a month together..) .

that way I save the expenses of 17K a year that not necessery for the current situation that I have visa.

Good way or wrong?what do u think guys?

For your rather small business I would use the following numbers.

You could be paid 25K per month

Your wife would need 15K net per month

Her gross sales would need to be 50K per month (taking 70% deduction)

You would be paying 11K income tax per year

Your wife would would be paying 5K income tax per year

Gross sales tax would be 9K per year

Total: 25K

In sunbelts example income tax was 17K and gross sales tax 15K.

Total 32K

Thank you Sunbelt! You've made my day.

- My wife is self-employed

- My wifes gross sales exceed the 350K (it's about 1 million) but don't reach the 1.2 million.

- So, we don't need to register for VAT.

- We'll be paying a gross sales tax of 1,5%

- I can get a working permit if her province (SriRacha -> Chonburi) allows it, which should be the case according to Thai law. With this work permit I can assist her (being a personal assistant).

- We'll not be paying much tax, neither on her income (because we get a 70% deduction for expenses on her income) nor on my income (because 15K/month is not high).

But there's one problem left: the one year extention of the visa.

We need to get a common income of 40000 baht/month.

I would get 15000/month (from working for her).

Does this mean that the shop needs to make a 25000/month profit? Or 25000/month gross sales?

Or can I get a one year extention based on my employment?

Article 6. Regarding considering issuing the work permit under Article 4 to foreigners who apply for permission to work for a natural person employer who is not one having the character under Article 5, permission may be granted according to the following criteria:

(1) Foreigners working for an employer earning an income from business operation in the past year cycle or from the current year: for every Seven hundred thousand baht earned by the employer, one foreign employee may be employed but no more than maximum three foreign employee may be employed.

(2) Foreigners working for an employer who has paid taxes to the government in the past year cycle: one foreign employee may be employed for every fifty thousand baht income tax the employer paid. Maximum foreign employee hired may not exceed 3 persons.

(3) Foreigners working for an employer having Thai employees: one person may be permitted for every four Thai employees, the maximum being three persons.

Article 7. The criterion under paragraph one shall be reduced by one half in the case where the permit applicant alien has a Thai spouse in a lawfully registered marriage and in open cohabitation.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

This is very good news for me.

I've 3 more questions.

- Is there any chance that a natural self-employed person with an annual income of 350K would not have to register for VAT (and just be paying 1.5% gross sales tax)? I believe that you've to register for VAT when your gross earnings are more that 1.2 million. But I don't know if gross earnings and turnover are the same thing. If gross earning is the profit from sales (selling price - selling price), we'll never reach the 1.2 million, but we might reach the 350K. If gross earning is the same as turnover we might reach the 1.2 million.

- Will a foreigner be able to get a work permit for helping in a shop in Thailand as a personal assistent? Would this WP allows him to fill the shelfs and transport the good that are sold in shop and install the shop in the morning? I would not be the actual seller. I would really be an assistent.

- May the foreigner be paid from the 350K or should the shop be making 350K, income of the foreigner not included, so 350K + 12*15K = 530K?

Get a work permit with the wife being the natural employer. The wife only has to have paid personal income tax of 25,000 Baht last year, or had a net income of 350,000 Baht in sales last year or employs 2 Thais and she can hire the OP. The OP salary could be 15,000 Baht per month and he don't even need to pay any personal income tax. He will just need to file the PND #1 ( monthly withholding tax every month) with zero tax owed. His job could be an Personal Assistant to his wife at the store.

Even if it was based on a company, the registered capital only has to be one million Baht ( married to a Thai), no Thais need to be employed and his salary could be even 15K per month(Not 40 or 50K per month)

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

This is interesting. Does your wifes business has to be VAT registered of can she just be self-employed with a total turnover less than the limit for VAT registration (I believe this 1.2 million baht turnover)? And while being self-employed can she hire a foreigner husband and provide a working permit for him? Or does the wife need to start a real company?

The net income of 350K in sales, may the salary of the husband be paid from that (giving a total net income that is lower) or does the shop need to get a net income fron sales of "350K + the income of the husband", leaving a total net income of 350K?

Although your wifes company can give you a working permit, which allows you to help her, you don't need to be working in your wifes business to get a 1 year visa extention. If you get a working permit you can only do certain tasks in her company (because you're a foreigner).

If her business makes more than 40K/month official income you'll be allowed to get a 1 year extention based on 40K/month, even if you're not working.

If you wife has a small business that is not registered for VAT with a small turnaround and low income (less than 40K/month) changing to a VAT registered business with a higher income and turnaround will probably cause a serious tax increase.

I've lived one year in Sri Racha.

The city is a bit too crowded for me and there's really not much to see for tourists. There's always a lot of traffic in the area around the mall and it's very noisy over there. The prices of the land go up very quickly (in sriracha and around) because many people that are working in Leam Chabang (harbour) live in Sriracha. About one year ago they made the city park a bit bigger and now it's a nice park. Near the city parc there's a small Island (Ko Loy), which can be reached by car which. It's a nice place to walk.

The shopping mall is the perfect place for a farang to cool down (I love airco). Everyone calls it Robinson, but there are also other shops, like TOPPS supermarket. There's another mall called tukcom which is like a small Pantip Plaza (they sell mainly computers, software and electronic stuff).

There are some very nice Thai restaurants in Sriracha and there are also some farang restaurants but I really don't like the farang food over there. I just go to eat eat pizza sometimes in the pizza company because I miss the taste of bread, but for the rest I eat only Thai food.

The cinema is on the top floor of the mall but they almost never have any good movie. If you move a bit outside the city centre the infrastructure sucks. At many places the water distribution system doesn't work during daytime and electricity and telephone lines are bad. You can get broadband internet at many addresses in SriRacha but there also many addresses outside the city centre where ADSL is still not available.

The sidewalks are terrrible in Sriracha. The sidewalks have a different levels in front of every house and people use them to sell things which forces you to walk on the streets (and this in dangerous). But I guess many cities in Thailand suffer from this problem.

Sri Racha people are not poor. In fact many of them are pretty rich.

If you would have (small) children, there are some very nice looking (Thai) schools in SriRacha.

There's a food market in SriRacha (near the big watch tower, a bit more down the hill). And somewhere between the Ko loy and the mall there's a night market. If you want to have an overview of Sri racha you can climb up the big gray iron watch tower in the city centre.

Sri Racha people are kind. They are used to see a lot of farangs and they don't want to get anything from you (they know farang from work, not from tourism). Public transportation is good.

If you can choose where to live in Thailand, I wouldn't advice you to go to live in Sriracha. There are much nicer places in Thailand.

I like Bangsaen. It's much more quiet (on weekdays) and it's a beautiful place.

There are passport offices at other locations in Thailand. Have a look at this web-site and better call first to be sure they didn't move:

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/1853.php

Hi,

I'm asking this question on my Dad's behalf.

His girlfriend needs to apply for a passport so she can visit him in Australia.

What is the process? She lives in Bangkok and is a Thai citizen. My Thai friend told me this:

"They need to bring an ID card and application fee which is approximate 1100 Baht.

Then go to the passport department which is on the 5th or 7th floor i'm not sure.

It's in Central Department Store, Bangna area."

Is this accurate?

This is correct. The passport service is in the parking lot on the 9th floor (not 5th). No need to make a passport photo, they will make one over there with a digital camera. The passport can be sent by mail. But I believe the price was a bit higher than 1100, although not much (maybe 1500 baht).

Almog_thai, have a look here:

The 1.2 million is turnover, not profit.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=91637

A shop with a income high enough for your visa (40K/month) will almost for sure have a turnover of more than 1.2 million and will probably have to register for VAT.

example:

shop is selling 150000 per month (VAT included) = 93457 without VAT

shop is buying 100000 per month (VAT included) =140186 without VAT

profit:46729 /month (VAT taken into account)

Assume the deductions for expenses are 70%

income tax: (140186*12*0.3 - 100000 - 60000)*10% = 34466 B/year

VAT: ((150000 - 140186) - (100000 - 93457))*12 = (9814 - 6543)*12 = 39252 B/year

Much more expensive than an airline ticket, if you ask me.

Almog_thai.

Let be reasonable. If you want to have an official income of 40K on your wifes name and your wife is self-employed, she'll will be the only self employed person in your village that will be paying that high tax. She'll not be able to compete anymore.

Almost all the small shops of self-employed people in Thailand have very high tax deductions and therefore a very low official income. Probably the tax revenue department also estimates their income to be very low. Just go to ask any shopkeeper of a small shop in Thailand how much income tax they pay yearly. You'll have a very hard time finding anyone that pays more than 5000 baht. And believe me, they are not poor and many of them are making more than 40K per month.

You can always go to the tax revenu office and ask to pay much more tax. They will not refuse. But please keep in mind that if the turnover of the shop is higher than 1.2 million, you'll be obliged to register for VAT (and you'll pay a lot!!!!).

All I want to say is that keeping things like they are and flying to Europe or USA (or wherever you're from) to get a new multiple entry non-immigrant visa is probably the cheapest solution for you.

Rainman,

My wife didn't need to have any income or money when she came to Europe. She got a residence permit without any question asked. Moreover she gets exactly the same rights as me over here. She can buy land, work without a working permit, get's free education, free healthcare and free support for unemployment, without paying 1 euro.

I am not going to pay tax on income that I don't make. Any income will be taxed, either in Europe or in Thailand. Some people are corrupt because they want to avoid taxes. I think that's not fair. But it's also not fair to force foreigners to pay taxes on income they don't have.

Further on my embassy is never going to provide a prove of income unless it's real income (and not just a transfer of my savings).

You're younger than 50, so you can't get a retirement visa.

You're younger than 50, so you can't get a non-immigrant-O visa for taking care of your child.

You're not married so you can't get a non-immigrant-O visa based on marriage.

You're working and you now have a non-immigrant-B visa, right?

If this visa would expire and you don't have a job anymore I am afraid that the only possibility that is left for you are tourist visas. Maybe immigration department could do something special for you, something out of the rules. It seems to be inhumane to send you out or to make you switch to tourists visas.

I feel really bad for all the people that are hit that hard by the new immigration rules. The rules not only seem to send out the criminals and non-tax-paying "english teachers/everlasting tourists" but also many of the good and honest fathers and husbands.