pastitche

I may have missed something in the 35 pages here but I don't think that anyone has defined what the alleged infringement of the law is. "Involved in politics when banned" is a very vague term. There must be a clearer definition in the legislation as to what the phrase being used here means. I thought that the law meant that while banned, a person could not be a party leader or party executive. I assume that someone out there can tell me why I am wrong in thinking that Thaksin is not either of these

It's not just not being allowed to be a party leader or executive.

It's basically, not allowed to be involved in politics. That would generally include not being allowed to campaign.

I would respectfully suggest that this is no more than your opinion; as I said before "involved in politics" is vague and is too all-encompassing to be acceptable in any legislation as an offence. What I asked was whether there is a clearer definition of what the offender has to be shown to have done for an offence to have been committed. This thread has been going for a very long time with many posters claiming that they are supporting the rule of law but apparently none can say how that law has been broken

The Illuminate in here will never accept the Thai peoples decision,no matter what u say.

So in your eyes, following the law = not accepting Thai people's decision.

The statement made is succinct and does not appear to require rephrasing or expansion

I may have missed something in the 35 pages here but I don't think that anyone has defined what the alleged infringement of the law is. "Involved in politics when banned" is a very vague term. There must be a clearer definition in the legislation as to what the phrase being used here means. I thought that the law meant that while banned, a person could not be a party leader or party executive. I assume that someone out there can tell me why I am wrong in thinking that Thaksin is not either of these

The big problem is that there are more "Have Nots" than "Haves" in Thailand. As long as that perceived gap exists, the poor majority will support anyone who delivers anything that resembles a better situation than they are now experiencing. If the rich want to stay in power, they will have to give up something or risk losing it all. Unfortunately, the rich and powerful want to not only hold on to it all, but want more.

Looking at recent history, the revolutions in Russia, China, Cuba, etc. resulted when the majority of the populace was poor and believed they had nothing to lose by joining the revolution. Their target was easy to identify and attack. America has prevented this problem by keeping its poorest citizens fat and lazy with food handouts and access to over a hundred cable channels. They might not be that happy, but they now have something that they don't want to lose. They have also convinced the majority that there is a chance for them to enter the higher echelon of society, not realizing that it is nothing but a glass ceiling.

The point is, that as long as there is hope that one can become part of the ruling class, there will be a strong resistance to destroy the regime. Without that hope, expect chaos...lots of chaos.

Does that mean that there are no "Have Nots" in the south?

Why do you ask? There is no mention in jaltsc's post of either north or south

Not only harsh but also you certainly show yourself to be the fool that you that you say you are and truly opinionated which I presume is the word you had in mind.

Everybody i spoke to here in thailand voting for Yingluck

Well cheers for you! I gather your private poll means that the people you choose to speak to represent opionated Thais of all classes and walks of life. Or are you just another d... f... who, hadn't it been for European social security would have spent your retired life in misery? I am harsh, yes, but a fools post deserves a fools answer. Sorry.

I googled and Turkey and Greece do not allow alcohol sales on election days.

TheWalkingMan

Two more places I have no desire to visit.

I doubt either have much spare cash for booze at the moment

I had the same experience years ago in Tahiti on a short break there - it was very disappointing to find I could not have a drink the day after I arrived but this really should only affect tourists. Anyone living here should be aware that on election days, alcohol will not be available

Are some foreigners scared?

your dead right and with reason but not for our own safety but for future of Thailand and our families here. Would you not be scared of Hitler Gaddafi Mugabwie and what they can and do do Taksin is in same mould I assure you of that

I hate the fact that I have to preface most of my posts by saying that I am not a supporter of Thaksin or PTP but I do not want the ravening dogs of TVF Dem supporters attackng me. But.......

I really do wish that posters would stop likening Thaksin to Hitler - Hitler was leader of a regime which systematically and with industrial efficiency murdered 6 million people. No matter how bad you think Thaksin is, he is not in that category. Nor, indeed did he reduce his country from prosperity to poverty as did Mugabwe. Gaddafi - in what way is Thaksin a supporter of external terrorism, which is NATO's real reason for their actions against him, notwithstanding other humanitarian excuses?

/

In the House which was dissolved last month the PTP had 189 seats, Dem's 172, BJT 32, CPPP 32, CTP 25 (give or take one or two). With the number of seats increased from 475 to 500, let's assume a split of 12,10,1,1,1 over the parties named. That make PTP 201, Dem's 182.

Somehow we must be looking as BIG losers if PTP aims at 270 - 300 seats, Dem's in a positive mood at 200. Maybe we need another 100 extra seats

"As usual my 2 cents worth of personal opinion...."

"let's assume.....'" is there some reasoning behind your assumption that the ratio will be as you suggest?

Monitoring the Thai Land for 4 decades it is unbelievable to witness so much non sense mostly to the detriment of the first PM acting as a real CIVIL SERVANT to benefit THAILAND not selfishly to himself neither to any one in his entourage and certainly not playing games, shuffling cars perpetually, as so many did previously once elected.

It is boring NOT to have the eyes wide open to SEE that PM Abhisit is walking on eggs in front of the evidences available that should put in jail all the culprits whom have used so much unrestrained violence to kill more than 90 Thai all of them innocent for being there at the wrong moment.

Mr. PM Abhisit has learnt in UK from the PM Mrs.Thatcher days when herself had to fight every one around, Irish terrorism included, to enforce her policies to grow Great Britain domestically and Internationally.

This is a pleasure to be able to understand PM Abhisit speeches translated in English ( smile ) expressing COMMON SENSE, PATIENCE, ACTIONS, DEDICATION and a LOT of RESPECT for his enemies.

In Thailand Our Majesty the King is The Highest Master of ALL Ceremonies deserving the Highest respect with every one assisting of course with the protection of The Royal Thai Army.

Let the people who want to work do their job and the talkers to shut up.

A return to the Thaksin days can only emulate an elite of corrupters to enrich themselves once more certainly NOT to enrich those manipulated called his followers.

Put up of shut up said Ronald Reagan.

Enough is enough VOTE Abhisit for all the Thai population well being and do NOT give a chance to the losers whom are looking for their own revenge.

end

An interesting(?) but disjointed reply. I accept totally your respect and support for the monarchy - but Thatcher?

Unless they changed their stance, I think the Amnesty didn't include those responsible for the deaths of 90+ protesters.

I think you'll find the reds and their shady backers were responsible for most of these deaths. You have to look at the bigger picture. Even before the demos took place the reds made many threatening noises about bringing empty bottles, burning the city and so on. Seh Daeng made it clear that he had 300 armed men at his beck and call and so it goes on. The red propaganda machine is very powerful and includes organisations like Freedom House who are hardly independent being linked, as they are, to Thaksin through Robert Amsterdam. Its a huge con trick on the Thai people to lay the blame at the door of the Government. I even found a red supporting website who claimed there were hundreds of deaths. There is no end to their lies and manipulation and I genuinely feel sorry for Khun Abhisit to have all this stuff heaped on his shoulders. He is probably one of the best prime ministers Thailand has ever had. A decent man. anti corruption and so on. But Thaksin's Global forces are difficult to counteract. When those who know nothing post gibberish on Farang websites, well that doesn't help either. Open your eyes and see how the powerful are manipulating you.

I think seriously that, given your previous poets and this one, you need to increase your medication

"We will win the election in the normal way," Suthep said.

Ahh, so its lose the popular vote, drum up charges against PTP, dissolve the PTP and then take over the government through the parlimentary process and continue ad infinitum

Look Jon, if you had any idea what democracy was about and indeed, what Global forces are behind Thaksin, the reds and so on, then you would not make statements like this.

Go on then, tell us about these global forces.....

I just come back from a rally of Yinluck in Thoen. 8000 people, most not from the amphoe. She looked tired. Short speaking and than disappeared. (A misused woman by her brother, my impression).

8000 people, most from elsewhere? How can you know that?

Misused by her brother? Your impression was also shared by the few people from the amphoe?

Whatever Thaksin is or isn't, he is a product of Thai society. Perhaps he is the superman of corruption, but is only a creation of/ reflection of, the very same society. If his party/ clone wins and is able to hold on to power, it is simply the society's reflection, the society's child, returning.

Granting amnesty is really no different from the "Zero accountability" or "impunity" stuff that already exists.

Bravo! And the opinions of those who would recreate Thailand in their prayed-for image matter not at all. Perhaps we should contemplate our significance here

Before responding to what has been said, can I make it clear that I am not a supporter of either of the major protagonists in the Thai election; I do not believe that it will impact my life in any significant way.

What troubles me in this incident and so much else is the fact that there is so much doubt in my mind that any side is telling the truth. The first report where a "signalled" possession of a firearm morphs in the second report to effectively an armed gang who would whistle etc..... sounds too much like the army protecting their masculinity. After all this is an army senior officer who is not going to admit that his guys did not have the balls to face down some civilians; where are the press and witnesses?

Like so much of what appears on here there is no evidence on either side but the story has immense propaganda potential (for both sides- the army can say the redshirts are lawless,the redshirts can say we will protect our people from intimidation - so why do we Westerners who have always had an investigative press accept one or other version without question?

As far as I understand this incident, in one report it was said that the parliamentary candidate "signalled that he had a gun"; in the other the Army spokesman said that there were seven(?) people threatening the two soldiers with guns. Which of these versions of events is true or believable given the credibility of both the army and the redshirts and the press?

<br />I can only imagine the reactions if instead of food from the UK coming to Thailand ... this was food going to the UK from Thailand.<br />

Quite recently the EU did ban a number of vegetable imports from Thailand for unacceptably high levels of pesticide.

<br />I imagine that most of the members of this forum are foreign expats living in Thailand. Does it matter to any of you as to who the PM or ruling party is and why? Serious question as I'm planning to retire here very shortly. Tks<br />

<br /><br /><br />

IMHO, it really wouldn't make much difference in your day to day life who the PM is or who the ruling party (or coalition) is. However, if PT does win or put together a coalition, they will probably do their best to bring Thaksin back. This move could very well trigger something that would look a lot like a civil war... which probably would matter to us expats!

exactly I guarantee if Mr T comes back their will be civil war and if he does not the reds will again try and cause havoc only this time they may not be alloyed to go around with guns grenades and mobs attempting to burn burn burn The only hope for Thailand if he comes back is another coup which I for one would support 100% if it meant not letting a bunch of total thugs take over the country and I will probably also leave with my Thai wife and children. I have already stopped bringing any more into this country and will slowly sell our assets here except the house which amount to around 100 million baht. I know lots of others who are waiting to see. Where to move to thats problem. Forget Cambodia or Vietnam maybe Laos or Singapore

If the reds are the the ones with the guns and grenades and cause havoc but through their political party, PTP win power, who do you think will start this civil war that you guarantee?

Surely not the Dems, or do they have a paramilitary wing that no-one has heard of, maybe the middle-aged ladies of PAD?

It's a bit unfair to make illogical statements like yours to an innocent poster who will probably have a totally pleasant life, anywhere in Thailand where most of the people have little interest in the apocalyptic politics that so obsess many posters here

Why oh why has no-one recognised that here might be a real analysis of this sad country's problem?

Thailand offers free electricity and water? Please tell me because I pay quite a lot each month....

If you "pay a lot" you don't qualify. Yes there is a minimum usage amount and below that Thais don't pay anything. I could actually switch to truly free water as I have a well ... but I think pumping it out of the well would cost as much monthly as I am paying for city water (less than 100 baht/mo for my water bill)

OK thanks for that, what about the free electricity? My a/c could do with a govt subsidy

LITTLE more complicated than that. The majority of Thais are simply pig sick of being treated like 'untermenschen'. They are learning that they too are 'Thai subjects;'(not citizens, exactly the same as the wealthy, but with very less 'get out of jail free' options).

Know what? Hope they drag the bugger back in. That should stir things up a bit.

HUH?

The majority of Thais are no such thing ---- a minority of Thais being paid by a corrupt ex-politician on the run from the law could be described the way you suggest though! ....

Most Thai citizens are both happy and proud to be just that. Thai citizens.

I am not sure where you are from JD so you may not be aware that in fact the members of the populace in a monarchy are not citizens but subjects

about equal wealth distribution : how many people of the north east region pay taxes ?

I guess most come from middle class working people out of Bangkok... normal that they get a big piece of the pie ?

They all pay taxes. Each and every time they make a basic purchase to eat, to have a roof over their heads or to obtain the basic necessities. It's called the VAT. Taxes are collected from the poor via the VAT. Thailand doesn't have a VAT credit program to offset these taxes for the poor. Other countries do. A poor Thai purchasing 200 baht of items at the 7-11 pays the same tax as a wealthy Thai. The opportunities for tax evasion are greater for someone of means than for a subsistence farmer that pays his VAT on farm supplies.

If your intent is to highlight personal income taxes, please note that one has to have income first in order to pay taxes. When a great many of the population has to survive on less than 250 baht a day, there isn't anything to tax.

Please note that on a year base the first 150,000 Baht earned is tax-free. This excludes any deductions (wife, kids in school, etc., etc.) which may make your tax-free bracket 200,000 or more effectively.

Hmmm last time I looked going to a 7-11 was a convenience. The roof isn't taxed by VAT the other basic necessities aren't either. SOME other countries have an offset for sales tax --- MOST do not. Other countries aren't Thailand but when Thailand offers free electricity, and water etc ....

Granted everyone in theory pays an equal tax on beer .........

Please note that many of the basics in Thailand are either officially untaxed or unofficially untaxed. This includes things that would be taxed in other places like prepared food from markets etc.

Thailand offers free electricity and water? Please tell me because I pay quite a lot each month....

So tell me do you believe in the concept of a minimum wage?

Typical stuff by Phua Thai, promise absolutley anything and find a way not to deliver after you have your position.

Offer an election promise of 300B per day or 15,000B per month skilled salary, with absolutley no idea how they are going to deliver, pay for, or carry out the initiative. Why not just offer everybody in marginal seats free land.

Its a wonder that their supporters actually believe any of the crap that comes out of PT politician's mouths.

Quotes from the above article sum it up in reality:

However, politicians often tend to make unrealistic promises to workers about high wage rises. This is especially the case during general election seasons when grassroots voters express growing concern over price rises.

Low wage earners naturally want to see their income rise substantially, but a sharp and unrealistic increase does not always fix the problem of the rising cost of living.

Manufacturers tend to react fast to a possible wage rise by raising the prices of goods. A prospective wage rise can also have a psychological impact on the market, and can lead to further price rises even ahead of the actual wage rise.

It is not possible to dictate the optimum wage level for the future, but politicians will always offer the highest number they can. Such irresponsible promises only put greater pressure on the Wage Committee.

You have posted this on two threads. I think that the quotations are quite apposite and am pleased that you appear to believe as I do, that irrespective of the result Thailand will still be ruled by a self-seeking and self perpetuating plutocracy, from whichever camp. But I cannot be sure that is what you meant.

1) The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections.

• Lord Acton, The History of Freedom and Other Essays, Section III: Sir Erskine May's Democracy in Europe p. 76

There are many components absent from the Thai version of democracy. Not the least of these is the respect for individual rights. Think on how this relates to Thailands situation.

2) We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

• Louis Brandeis, U.S. Supreme Court Justice ~ quoted by Raymond Lonergan in, Mr. Justice Brandeis, Great American (1941), p. 42

Who provides wealth for Thailand if the rich elite do not? Could the rice farmers and those who sleep in their wooden houses with their Hang Song by their side do it - Or is this election all about whether Thais want the present dictatorship or Thgaksins dictatorship to return? If it is then i believe there is nothing for westerners to debate on this forum.

3) Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Widely attributed to Benjamin Franklin

Further evidence that there is a line of thought which says that there is more to democracy than mere numbers.

I would tend to agree with your quotations and I assume that your conclusion is that Thailand is to be ruled by a self-perpetuating plutocracy, whichever party gains power.

1) The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections.

• Lord Acton, The History of Freedom and Other Essays, Section III: Sir Erskine May's Democracy in Europe p. 76

There are many components absent from the Thai version of democracy. Not the least of these is the respect for individual rights. Think on how this relates to Thailands situation.

2) We may have democracy, or we may have wealth concentrated in the hands of a few, but we can't have both.

• Louis Brandeis, U.S. Supreme Court Justice ~ quoted by Raymond Lonergan in, Mr. Justice Brandeis, Great American (1941), p. 42

Who provides wealth for Thailand if the rich elite do not? Could the rice farmers and those who sleep in their wooden houses with their Hang Song by their side do it - Or is this election all about whether Thais want the present dictatorship or Thgaksins dictatorship to return? If it is then i believe there is nothing for westerners to debate on this forum.

3) Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote.

Widely attributed to Benjamin Franklin

Further evidence that there is a line of thought which says that there is more to democracy than mere numbers.

Maybe it is time for Thailand to try a totally different system - anarchy

Should the Democrats claim victory, ... As Pheu Thai leader, Yongyuth Wichaidit would then be destined to become the opposition leader. Pheu Thai candidate Yingluck Shinawatra would take her seat as a first-time MP on the opposition bench.

If Pheu Thai wins, Yingluck will become Thailand's first female prime minister ... . Yongyuth would likely enjoy concurrent appointments as a first-time coalition lawmaker and a new Cabinet member with the interior portfolio.

So if PTP wins, Yingluck is PM. If they lose, she's doesn't become the opposition leader??

In other words, she's just a figure head. She can't do the job.

I am disappointed in you whybother, you normally provide sound arguments for your conclusions. To take an opinion columnist's unsubstantiated statement that the PT Party leader would become leader of the opposition and conclude from that postulation that Yingluck can't do the job does not make sense. That she may not have the expertise might be true and that parliamentary precedent suggests that Yongyuth would,in the event of a Democrat victory take up the parliamentary leadership, she is the kingmaker's anointee and ... when has there ever been a candidate for PM who has never served in parliament?