LivinLOS

Thanks, will try to grab an in.th later today. 

I actually want an or.th as am considering a non profit but I need to research that whole topic deeper as to how heavy the costs of such a venture may be. 

On 4/5/2024 at 11:46 AM, Mike Lister said:

For UK citizens, income that arises in the UK is taxable in the UK. If that income falls within the Personal Allowance then it will be zero rated. But if the State Pension should exceed the PA, (a political bombshell for whoever decided to make that happen), it will be taxable in the UK, under existing rules. 

Only income that comes from a fixed UK asset. Eg rental returns, forestry income, etc etc are always taxed at source as they arise from a UK based physical asset. UK employment depends on multile factors (location and residency at the time of the engagement, permanent establishment of the employer, etc but again is not 'always' UK (despite what the UK tax man tries to imply and make people believe) i have paid 100s of employee payrolls per week, 1000s of men a year, all UK employees, and the income tax was not paid in UK. 

Once a P85 is filed for non residence, you simply obtain an NT tax code and pensions (not armed forces or civil servants) are then not UK taxed. 

A successful application to HMRC would result in a change to your tax code, with an ‘NT’ Tax Code, applied as a non-resident. Your pension trustee would receive confirmation from HMRC of the change and income should be paid gross, without any tax deducted.
https://www.forthcapital.com/articles/uk-pension-income-for-expats-where-do-you-pay-tax-and-what-is-an-nt-tax-code

 

On 4/6/2024 at 5:39 PM, topt said:

 

 

I am surprised no one else has pulled you up on this as, unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying, potentially you are completely wrong......

 

Private pensions are taxable in the UK for a non resident irrespective of filing a P85. The only way you avoid tax on a private pension paid in the UK is if you take it offshore or the combined amount is less than the personal allowance. The state pension may be zero rated but is added to the total of income so effectively counts for your total tax base.

 

Any property rental amounts are also taxable and again a P85 has nothing to do with it.

 

You could start here - https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

 

P85 detail - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/get-your-income-tax-right-if-youre-leaving-the-uk-p85

 

Please show me I am wrong........

 

First file P85.. Second get NT tax code (based on that fact).

Then UK pensions are tax free.. UNLESS its an armed forces or senior civil servant pension. Pension income is NOT 'domestic source' income like rental returns etc, it is not arising from a fixed UK asset.

 

How can I receive my UK pension overseas without paying tax in the UK?

Non-UK residents can apply directly to HMRC to obtain an NT code.

What is an NT code?

The NT stands for “nil-tax” and means that an individual is exempt from paying income tax on that specific income. In the case of non-residents this is because they are liable for tax in another country and, as per existing double-tax agreements between their country of residence and the UK, they are exempt from tax in the UK.

https://valiant-wealth.com/how-will-my-uk-pension-be-taxed-if-i-live-overseas/

I have a need for a Thai domain name, the in.th would be acceptable and is for individuals. 

Various info pages say you must provide an ID to prove address, I have yellow book, Pink ID and of course a driving license, held for decades. 

Can a non Thai citizen register a domain as a person this way ?? I appreciate the co.th domains need either a domestic company or a regsitered trademark here or overseas, I actually prefer not to use a co.th anyway. 

Anyone done this ? any feedback ? 
 

20 minutes ago, spambot said:

With the proviso - UK government state pension remain liable to tax in the UK no matter where you are resident. 

No it is not.. I am unsure why people repeat and believe this, the information is easy to check online. 

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you-retire-abroad/tax-on-your-state-pension

https://www.gov.uk/tax-uk-income-live-abroad

When tax is not due or is already deducted

Non-residents do not usually pay UK tax on:

• the State Pension
• interest from UK government securities (‘gilts’)

If you live abroad and are employed in the UK, your tax is calculated automatically on the days you work in the UK.

Income Tax is no longer automatically taken from interest on savings and investments.

1 hour ago, spambot said:

Mnnn - Good info.

 

So for example with £175,000 inside a savings account on 31 Dec 2023 - Then remitting 65k Thb / month (Approx. £17,500 / yr) to a Thai Bank for Visa ext. This essentially provides 10yrs of remittance that is free from taxation - Am I understanding you correctly?

Yes that should remain cear under the jan 1 2024 prior savings rules.. 

5 minutes ago, Presnock said:

 

plus no 90-day reports either.

 

 Still needed but it becomes a 365 day report 😉 it becomes once per year if you dont travel. 

3 hours ago, JimGant said:

I'm just curious -- what are the sources of your remitted income to Thailand? If largely current year private pensions, then, yes, assessable income. But not assessable are govt pensions and social security, from current or past years

That may be the case for USA expats, thier DTA states it and I think from memory canada also.

This is not the case for UK expats, and most EU countries whose DTAs I looked at, actually many scandivanian expats choose to pay taxes here at a lower rate than in thier home countries. 

In the case of the UK pensions only remain UK domestic source income for non residents on armed forces pensions and some civil servant pensions. The rest, both state and private pensions stop being UK taxable after a P85 filing. Paying taxes 'back home' is user error, not the correct use of the system, of course th UK doesnt exactly remind folks fo that and even incenivises not doing so (index linking, healthcare access etc). 

7 hours ago, jayboy said:

 

All employed foreigners in Thailand pay tax and always have done so and that is not up for debate.I speak as someone formerly in that category.The more pertinent question for this forum is how many retired expats without Thai generated income and resident more than 180 days have filed returns and paid tax - that is up to now.The answer is almost none though a tiny minority may have filed returns for reasons best known to themselves, and sometimes quite unnecessarily.The Thai Revenue Department in practice had no issues with that.The situation has changed now and though the practical aspects are still not fully clear we have a reasonable understanding of how matters will play out.

For 4 years I filed zero returns, to the absolute bafflement of the revenue dept.. 

My reasons where I had bsuiness activity in UK and europe and was having to file in UK, Netherlands, and Ireland, I still do in 2 of those.. I needed be sure my home country filing was fully up to spec so that if demaned I could show it there, I had good earnings in each of those countries and claimed non residence there for tax remissions. To claim tax relief on large sums there but not have a home country tax return I could show was a much bigger risk than just forcing them to take the zero return. 

I admit it was odd, they appeared to never having seen anyone file 0 without Thai employment, work permit, and domestic source income.  

18 hours ago, NorthernRyland said:

I've never heard of anyone being taxed who isn't working here.  In theory you're correct though, we've all had tax liabilities since the beginning but then why didn't they even tell us? It would be easy at immigration for them to say, btw, you have a tax liability and need to talk with an accountant, get a TIN etc...

 

If they start making noise about this at immigration then I'll pay attention but until then I appear to be in the same position as always, just like the rest of us.

Because up to Jan 1st if they said thay all you had to reply was 'no this is savings from last tax year' as they cant look into your overseas bank t prove your liability, you had none. 

Now that changes, this year is pretty easy to argue the same, but as year by year goes by, the credibility of that argument becomes weaker.. In 2030 if you want to say you have lived off only savings, not investment returns for the last 6 years, proving that gets harder and harder.. 

Of course all this likely falls into the 'too hard' category.. But everyone now needs to be concious of it.. 

People using income, pension or otherwise for extensions are much more at early risk. They are the low hanging fruit on this. 

19 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Funny reply...

Mike, just a question regarding someone posting that we need to show the RD that our remittances are non-assessable. First, we should not need to show anyone anything, unless we're audited right? And, we are tax residents only if we meet the 180 day in-country threshold, right? If we are tax residents, then we are supposed to self-assess our remittances to determine if any of them are assessable income. If the remittances are non-assessable because of the DTA, or becuase they were from prior savings or prior assets, or they fall under the 120k threshold, then we do not need a TIN and we do not need to file a tax return. I guess there's always a slight chance the TRD tax man comes knocking at our door, if so, then and only then would we need to show him our remittances were non-assessable. Seems pretty straight forward to me. Isn't that pretty much correct?

Yes.. The issue revolves around what can be proven to be non-asseable and also how Thailand treats taxes paid where they should not have been. 

If nothing else this recent tweak of the rules has shown how few expats have a clue what they should do when they stop being resident of thier home countries and many have been paying taxes for years even decades for no reason at all. 

19 hours ago, Badrabbit said:

I did go to my local Revenue office, they told me "if you pay tax in your home country you won't pay tax here" 

That will depend on if you 'should' pay tax in your homne country.. 

If you filed a P85 when you became non resident of the uk, you shouldnt be paying taxes there. 

20 hours ago, JohnnyBD said:

Just a question, do we really have to show anyone anything, unless we're audited? First, we are not tax residents if we don't meet the 180 day in-country threshold. Then, we are suppose to self-assess our remittances to determine if any of them meet the assessable income criteria. If we fall under the 120k threshold or the remittances are not assessable income because of the DTA or they were from prior savings, or prior assets, then we do not need a TIN and do not need to file a tax return. I guess if the 1 in 100,000 chance the TRD tax man comes knocking at our door, then we will need to show him that our remittances were not assessable income. Isn't that pretty much correct?

Yeah pretty much.. 

Before they did not ask because a simple 'its last years savings' was the solution.. 

New they can ask and you need a better reason.. Theres still plenty of potential reasons, and a total lack of clarity about whch ones they may accept, how they view taxes paid elsewhere and tax credits, etc etc. But the possibility of needing to justify them is on the table, and if there is undeclared income in thier eyes, its 200% with the penalty. 

Guys who use the income method for extensions are signing a possible liability and handing it over, I cannot imagine that in a few years time a future government doesnt decide it just doesnt want that free tax revenue. 

7 minutes ago, Mike Lister said:

Not true, there is no difference between inbound funds remitted today and inbound funds remitted prior to 1 January 2024, they were both equally as likely to be assessable to tax or exempt, or not. 

 

The burden of proof does not change either. The obligation remains with the taxpayer to identify those funds correctly, determine their assessability and to decide whether a tax return should be filed or not. 

 

There was never an automatic assumption that the funds remitted last year were exempt and not earned in the same year, only the possibility existed that they were. Similarly, there is no automatic assumption today that the funds remitted today are assessable, they could just as easily be exempt under DTA rules, exempt because they were earned prior to 1 January 2024 or exempt because they were fully taxed overseas and no Thai tax was due.. 

You seem to be purposefully not understanding the issue.  

In the past inbound funds could always have been claimed to be prior years savings, and as Thailand had no ability to determine that or not it was all ignored. 

Since Jan 1 inbound funds no longer can be written off as simply offshore savings from past years, and hence all inbound funds are potentially taxable here unless we can show them to be one of the multiple reasons why not eg correctly taxed under a DTA, prior savings, etc etc etc etc 

Without the loophole they fall into default taxable unless justifed not taxable, with the loophole as anyone could claim anything was prior savings and untaxable they simply didnt ask. 

If they choose to implement this is anyones guess, my gut is it is far too hard a task for regional tax officrs to be skilled in understanding 67 DTAs, sources of income, what is domestic sourced income etc.. But tax clearanes for extensions of stay renewals ?? Things that add friction and cost money ?? maybe.. 

32 minutes ago, gravity101 said:

 

OK. I'd rather believe my tax accountant thanks. I stopped filing 12 years ago when i no longer needed to work. Not a bean from them about filing. I think your scaring folk. Exclamation marks included.

https://msnagroup.com/thai-personal-income-tax-penalty-and-surcharge/

 

Quote

A penalty is imposed to a taxpayer by the assessment officer in the event of filing a wrong return or failure to file the return. The rate of penalty is 100% in the case of an inaccurate return and 200% for failure to file a return. The penalties may be reduced by 50% if the taxpayer submits a request in writing and the assessment officer is of the opinion that the taxpayer did not intend to evade tax and cooperated with the officer during the tax audit.

Believe what you like, those are simply the facts 

57 minutes ago, tandor said:

it was clearly stated in all the YouTube and Podcasts that whatever funds were in your accounts prior to January 1st 2024 would not be assessable.

 

And this may now need to be proven.. That what has changed, the shift from not needing to prove anything, now becomes needing to establish it is NOT taxable by showing that it was prior savings, DTA covered, etc... 

There are plenty of reasons why an inbound transfer isnt taxable income, but now they may demand that it is proven that it is not taxable income, a task we have not in the past had to do. 
 

1 hour ago, Mike Lister said:

That's not true at all, not even close.

 
All inbound funds are 'potentially' income and may need to be justfied (DTA covered, prior tax paid, savings prior Jan 1, etc etc) to prove they are not. 

Before Jan 1 inbounds possibly were 'savings' under the old loophole and Revenue had no way to really dig into it, so never bothered. 

The onus on the burden of proof now changes, if they choose to enforce the rules stritctly. 

1 hour ago, NorthernRyland said:

 

Something just occurred to me. If the ONLY change is this loophole is being closed then does that imply we've all been evading taxes all these years UNLESS we used the loophole? Obviously most of us never even knew about the loophole so what's really changing? Seems like we're in the same position now as we ever were.

Yes.. Anyone bringin in income the year they made it had a tax laibility in law.. The fact is as Thailand had no way to know what was income and what was prior years savings, they simply ignored what they could not enforce. 

Now the loophole has been removed and all inbounds are considered income unless hown otherwise, they 'may' start enforcing it 

1 hour ago, tomacht8 said:

8. Large sums should be transferred right at the beginning of the year so that it is clear that they cannot be income for the current year.
9. You can transfer tax-free cash gifts to Thai family members amounting to 20 million baht per year. However, you have to be careful to what extent gift allowances are covered by the tax authorities in your home country.

8 only worked this year from prior savings.. Next year the savings you bring in on Jan 1 were prior years income you didnt declare... That idea doesnt work year after year. 

9 is 100% the way, you can gift your spouse / wife 20 million baht per year tax free, she can recieve the money and spend it in Thailand and as it was a gift under 20 million doesnt need to be included on a tax return as it isnt a liability.. Easy solution. Of course this doesnt help the 65k a month income for visa people. But it is a huge loophole that can be used for our benefit currently. 

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

But he will also have Thai exemptions and allowances...maybe go work out how much will be due on some real life European pensions that are not exempt under that country's DTA. (hint:  In most cases, even when assessable, will be minimial liabilty)

 

PH

But there IS a liability (150k is the first tax free band) I hope your pension pays more than that a year.. 

So now it needs filing, in Thai.. and calculating, and any under declaration has a 200% penalty attached.. 

Its the work this generates as much as the tax. 

2 hours ago, Phulublub said:

Depends on the source.  Most US and UK Government pensions, for example, are non-asseable.

 

PH

 US social security yes.. Private pensions and most UK pensions no. UK armed forces pensions and 'some' civil servants also remain uk taxed. 

1 hour ago, Phulublub said:

In truth, many will be from countries with a DTA that minimises or eradicates any liability to any tax payments here.

It is impossible to accurately comment on the combination of every person, every DTA and every source of income.. 

But in general strokes DTAs most often allow you to either claim back or obtain a tax credit, from the jurisdiction you no longer reside in, so tat you may remit it to the jurisdiction you do reside in.. They do not simply allow you to 'keep paying it back home' or 'pay it where you want to'.. 

Expats that live in developed countries, move around the EU, etc etc know this, because it is enforced to file returns and clearly how to pay taxes and claim credits. Expats here have long lived in a loose developing world model that appers to be coming to an end. Even if the shoe doesnt drop this year or next, how many years do you think it will be until one of the more anti foriegner governments comes up with the bright and no doubt vote winning formula of 'why should these foriegners that live here not pay when Thais have to' (even though only 4m Thais in a 67m population pay income tax). I cannot see how 'make them pay thier fair share, they are rich' wont be an easy sell. 

It might blow over, it might not happen this year, but you better believe over the years it will.. Plan accordingly. 

2 hours ago, gravity101 said:

Correct. My accountant said absolutely do nothing and never voluntarily submit a tax form especially if you never have. Worst case scenario is pleading ignorance and at worst is back payment. Accountants words.

Any assessed undeclared income is subject to a 200% penalty !!

Thats how they do it.. Its your job to file, if you dont file and they determine you should have, its 200%. 

2 hours ago, Basso53 said:

My Thai wife will be compulsorily retired without pension from her long time job at a International school this year. I bring in 65000 pm for O extension; hopefully I can then claim her as a dependant?🙏😁🤔

Yes Thailand accepts a marriage dependant and has increased tax bads for married people.