BAF

"The point is that when "adjusted for quality" many goods and services are more expensive in Thailand (and getting ever more so!) and when "adjusted for price" the quality is simply not comparable. Thailand doesn't seem to be closing the gap, it seems to be widening it."

This is NOT true. It is only the Western goods and Western services which have increased in price. Stick listed international schools, fancy nightclub, import clothing, import western foods as his basis for the increase in price.

I was very surprised at the International School being $15,000/year. If this is the case, I would expect to see a flock of them opening and driving down the price.

You seem to be confusing Western goods and Western services with goods and services which Westerners are interested in (and still the Thais are using more)...

What I call Western goods and services are those catering mostly to Westerners or provided mostly by Westerners.

"Fancy nightclubs" (where staff and ownership are mostly Thai) are a Western SERVICE?? And international schools (where the Thai "labour" is still prevalent) are a "Western SERVICE"??

BTW, the customers of both are mostly Thais... (as mostly Thai are the customers -and the providers- of BKK's public transports and internet access to name two of my examples)

Regarding imported clothing and imported Western food (real "Western goods") yes, they are more expensive than in the West (always been in my experience) and the gap is widening.

Now, while it's understandable that imported goods cost more than in the place of origin, there is no reason for such a large gap and, above all, for the widening gap nor for the prices asked for Western food prepared locally with mostly local ingredients and local labour. How do you explain that?

If it really was only Western goods and services to go up the average Thai living in Bangkok has nothing to worry about anyway, right?

Ask the Thais around you and report back here...

The fact is is you want farang stuff it's going to cost you, blame that on globalisation

???

You mean "before globalization" "farang stuff" used to cost less (let alone being available at all)?

PS: Never quite understood the mentality of some people coming to a country like Thailand and wanting like for like in their home country. If you want Western food and Western accomodation then stay in a Western country.

If you were living in Thailand full time would you be eating those 25 baht meals all (or even most) of the time? Are you eating those 25 baht meals all of the time even on your short stays?

And aren't you staying in a 1800 baht hotel on your short stays anyway? How much Thai is that hotel?

The Thais themselves wouldn't (and in fact those who can afford to, aren't) live like the average Thai does if they had the money...

Well, the price of most things rises with time, inside of Thailand and out (in my day, a chocolate bar was a nickel, etc...) -- the question is -- are the prices rising more in Thailand than elsewhere?

No, that's just part of the question in this thread. The other is: is the quality of the goods and services in Thailand raising as well as the prices?

Don't forget that many goods and services are already more expensive in Thailand than in the West (for the same level of quality).

An example to clarify what that means: in Italy the price of broadband internet access has been decreasing in the last few years and the quality has been improving (more speed, even more reliable etc). Now, letting aside that, for several reasons, broadband internet access in Thailand is already MORE EXPENSIVE than in Italy (for a MUCH WORSE service), are you seeing its prices, in Thailand, increasing? Are you seeing the quality of the service comparably increasing? How do you correlate the two things?

The point is that when "adjusted for quality" many goods and services are more expensive in Thailand (and getting ever more so!) and when "adjusted for price" the quality is simply not comparable.

Thailand doesn't seem to be closing the gap, it seems to be widening it.

P.S. I am paying € 19 (baht 777) a month for a (REAL) 4 Mbit ADSL connection and the only time the service has been down in the last 2 years (2 days for a planned work on the network) the provider has offered me free dial up backup.

Another example? An "integrated ticket" in Milan costs € 1 (baht 44) and a ticket grants you a trip on the subway starting from whichever station and ending to whichever station PLUS 75 minutes of unlimited trips on any surface mean of transport in the metropolitan area (bus, tram etc). That's MUCH CHEAPER than BTS + MTS + buses in Bangkok!

From the replies so far, it's clear most of the posters fail to get Stick's points (with which I mostly agree).

First of all, it's pointless comparing accomodation prices since he clearly said that's one of the areas where Bangkok is still a bargain and secondly he hasn't talked only about prices and how they compare to first world countries, the most important bit is the level of quality you get for what you pay and I heartily agree with him that while prices are quickly creeping up the quality of the goods and services you get isn't (or better said, isn't as much as the prices are. FAR FROM IT).

And to get firmly back on the ground the feet of those of you saying that's a sign of the Thailand's development and its shifting out of 3rd world status (LOL): the latest official Thai govt stats say that for Q1 2007 the average Thai wage still is THB 7709 (USD 258, EUR 188, GBP 127)...

Personally, in all of my travels and stays in 3rd world countries, I have never found them to be as cheap as one would expect when talking about goods and services of a quality/level comparable to that of the 1st world countries.

For example, saying that Thai food can be dirt cheap is irrelevant since we are comparing the price of Western food in the West and in Thailand (and BTW Thai food in Italy isn't prepared and sold on the pavement and Thai food in an average Thai restaurant in Italy cost LESS than comparable Thai food in a similar environment in Thailand with the added bonus of the protection of the laws regarding the cleanliness and preparation of the food and the general customer protection laws you get in Italy and NOT GET in Thailand).

In my case, eating Italian food in Thailand (I don't like Thai food at all) is much more expensive than in Italy and the quality isn't usually really comparable (apart for a few top end and costly places).

Even in the areas where I agree that Bangkok is still very good value (accomomodation) you don't really get exactly what you get in the West.

A villa like the one I have in Italy would cost me in Thailand more than in Italy (besides the fact that I can't own one in Thailand...) if I wanted it of the exact same quality.

An apartment like one of those that I am renting out in Italy would cost me, in Bangkok, less to buy but more to furnish to the exact same standard and even when the total sum is in favor of Thailand (like in most of the cases I think) what you have isn't really the same. I mean, in Rome or in Milan I can drink tap water (although I still don't) and if my apartment was on a low floor I could keep the windows open and not get the pollution, smells and noise I get in Bangkok (and since I know how ThaiVisa works, let me clarify: I would still get pollution, smells and noise in Rome or Milan but in Bangkok they are on a whole different level...). And that's not to talk about things like Thailand's zoning/planning laws (or lack thereof) and their enforcements (how do you like a Thai karaoke opening "next door"?) or the legal resources you have at your disposal to resolve disputes with neighbours etc ...

Labour is what really is dirt cheap in Thailand and what, for the most part, makes many other things cheaper but, alas, even in this case what you get isn't exactly what you would get in the West. The cheap labour is, in Thailand, unskilled labour. Getting in Thailand labour of the exact same skill level as in the West would cost you more or less like the West and, in some cases, much more than the West (think about some expat packages...).

In the low end of the spectrum you can make up with numbers for the lacking quality and skills (think about "low tech" labour intensive factories) but that's not always possible and that means that all you can aim for is the "low tech" market anyway...

In summary, 3rd world countries like Thailand are a good to great bargain depending on how much you are willing to compromise and by giving up a "bit" of quality you can, in many cases, save a comparably bigger "bit" of money. The problem with Bangkok in particular and Thailand in general is that, like Stick pointed out, they are rather quickly becoming less of a bargain (compared to the other similar 3rd world countries) by raising prices much faster than raising the quality of the goods and services you get for the money they ask.

This isn't just an issue to consider for tourists, longer time stayers, retirees etc this is an issue (THE issue, I would say) for the "big business" as well, Thai and foreign alike.

We are slowing beginning to see its effects on the Thai economy...

P.S. Yes taxis are very cheap but how often do you find yourself, in your corner of farangland, having to deal with a "broken meter", with a driver refusing your business or with having to WALK to a different place to avoid the local taxi mafia and their "fixed prices" stationing outside "strategic" places? You have to think about the whole package (BTW, taxis are often "luxury cars" in the West, by Thai standard) and yes, I can agree that many (most?) would prefer Thai taxi prices even with those "added bonuses". Then again, this is another one of those areas where Bangkok is still good value. Can't think of many, frankly.

BAF - In answer to your question as to how you can stay long-term in Thailand and not work and living off your existing 'wealth', etc etc:

I think the simple answer is that you cannot!! There are no visa options available for someone of your age.

Hi simon43, yes that's the answer. I have shown and detailed my situation and my (and my lawyers') understanding of the current immigration laws. That was just a rhetorical question which I asked to the Thai apologists confuting my arguments and I am still waiting for their answer...

Let's try once more :

I'm still waiting for those Illuminati to show me how I can fully legally move to Thailand on a the long term basis needed to build one's own family's future.

My half decent immigration lawyers tell me the ONE applicable answer is working (slaving) here and that "long term basis" translates in "1 (ONE) year extensions"...

I am also married to a Thai lady with a young family and business. I own businesses and do not have to work. I am under 50. I found myself in a similar crazy situation.

My solution was to sign up for a Master's degree course and obtain a student (ED) visa. There seemed to be no other way So I now study 2 days per week and 'relax' for the other 5....

Yes, all we have to resort to are tricks and loopholes (which they are trying to close down with their seemingly almost weekly changes of laws, regs and interpretations anyway)...

The only real solution (it's been for me anyway) is to leave, especially since I value the stability and safety of the environment in which to base my family's future above my personal enjoyment.

Third world countries are no place to build one's family's future and raise one's kids and the Thai immigration laws are just one piece of the puzzle...

hey BAF , great thread you've started over here ! Unfortunately there are some threads that do not produce any proper answers, and this truly turned out to be one . What bothers me is that you've got 1 VERY VALID POINT, that everyone chooses to ignore .

Hi asiaworld, thanks for reading and for your comments!

Yes, of course the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade can't but ignore my points since they are totally unable to properly address them with an arguments based point-by-point reply. This thread is a magnificent example of that

NO ONE of the Thai apologists who have posted here has gone beyond "the first level" of the discussion: they have asked questions or have made some points and then invariably left the answers/replies they got TOTALLY UNANSWERED only to ask some other unrelated things or make some other unrelated points and repeat the useless and time wasting process.

Following through the discussion and actually trying to get deeper into the arguments would have meant to eventually bring to light and to admit the underlying Thai xenophobia, racist and classism driving the Thai immigration laws (not to talk about the economic stupidity of it all, at least for the bulk of the Thai society)...

The more common situation that interests TV posters more is where children are Thai citizens by virtue of being born to a Thai mother whether on Thai soil or abroad, a category of eligibility that was only introduced in the early or mid 90s - before that a Thai woman had to remain not legally married in Thailand to her foreign partner, if she wanted Thai nationality for her children, and tell the district office that the father of their child was a Thai man who had unfortunately disappeared before she could note down his ID card details.

Do you know this for a fact? Any online reference you can point out?

That has been my hypothesis all along and the wording by which the 1992 Thai Nationality Act is presented in many law firms' and official websites is consistent with that (i.e. said 1992 Thai Nationality Act has much changed the previous situation and granted Thai citizenship in a lot more cases than previously).

Anyway, isn't it interesting to see how in Thailand very rarely old pieces of laws are amended to conform to the new and conflicting bits..?

Now, this 'one man' comment. One man called Gulu Lalvani proposed that the marine tax here should be dropped from 40-300% (depending on item) to a flat 0%. In return he would build a property development with a marina.

The tax was dropped in Feb 2006 as I recall.

Lots of things can be done by one person. So find that person and see how you go. Or would you prefer to continue to complain to some sympathetic ears none of whom are going to do anything about your issue? I suspect i know the answer.

You are a genius! Pure genius, let me tell you.

And please let me thank you soooooo much for have solved all my problems with just a couple of milliseconds activity of your brain cells and a few strokes on your keyboard!

I just wonder how's possible for the UN to so shamelessly and unforgivably continue to ignore you to solve all the rest of the world's problems..!

Now, how much is a marina? I think the one Lalvani enticed Phuket authorities with came pretty cheap at just around 6 billion Baht...

Your pipedream of getting a gang of militant farang to somehow force Thailand to improve treatment of you farang is simply not realistic because there are some farang doing just fine already and not wanting to open the flood gates, plus, most people are lazy and would rather complain.

...and some others would simply go on denying and justifying any problem until it bites them in the rear. Probably even after.

Clearly the treatment you feel you will receive here, makes you not want to come here. Enjoy USA and that nursing; sounds like Heng's advice for planning is in fact occuring; and you are planning to go there - enjoy :-)

It has ALWAYS been occuring. I haven't left Thailand with a few clothes and a couple of dollars in a backpack, we have flown to our new home in business class.

It's the ones wasting their lives working and "investing" all they have in Thailand and building their families's future in the stable instability of the Thai mess the ones you and Heng should be giving this advice to...

P.S. I will make sure to enjoy it

- 3rd one; markedly different. Presumably this is the one you don't like.

Dismissing this like just something BAF is interested in means, besides other things, ignoring the plight of families risking to be split and children to be forced out of their homecountry/abandoned.

It's distustingly inhuman. It's the 3rd world.

A sadder side of the place, Thailand supplies many mailorder brides to desparate western men;

Let's throw in a bunch of desperate western women... do we?

we don't necessarily want to allow free access to those men to come back, given the horrendous divorce stats, and general 'loser status' of the husbands concerned

Funny you say that, many folks back in the first world would think of ANYONE voluntarily choosing to live in a third world country as a "loser"...

- we won't exactly get the cream of society coming here with an open door policy.

True, I hear if it wasn't for Thailand's open doors policy Gates and Buffet would have already made the move...

(just to be sure, are we still talking about a corrupt, dangerous, dirty, noisy, polluted developing country with motocys racing on the potholed sidewalks and unsecured high voltage wires hanging a few feet over your head?)

There are limits to comparing developed and developing countries - hel_l even NZ has to play around with their immigration formula the whole time to get the type of people they want.

You mean New Zealand doesn't grant PR and citizenship to spouses and parents of New Zealanders?

(and while you are replying keep well in mind NZ's size as compared to Thailand...)

Plus of course, many Thai people don't want Isaan overrun with landowning foreigners for typical nationalistic PR reasons.

Oh my God (well, if I had one)...

I seem to remember that resembles one of the points I have been trying to make but am not too sure. Will have to check on that...

Sounds like Italy has a recipe for idiocy with their immigration policy; then again, it is considered to be a nice gateway to the EU for illegal immigration

1. EU policies not Italian policies (after a few dozens repetitions I am 8,3% sure you will get the general idea)

2. Illegal immigrants = the ones breaking those policies inspirated laws

3. Nice gateway? Yes. Ever opened a world atlas and seen how Italy is positioned with respect to the sources of much of that illegal immigration and the rest of the Western Europe? No, I guess...

- supposedly Italy has 500,000-800,000 illegal immigrants living there, and 2.7 legal ones (ref. IDOS, Eurispes).

Yes, I seem to remember reading very similar numbers posted several times in this very thread by a very smart, handsome and well informed chap whose name now escapes me apart that it begins with BAF...

Niiiiiiiiice role model.

Yes.

For someone who doesn't understand that illegal immigrants = the ones breaking those policies inspirated laws.

Mind you, like USA no doubt the illegal immigrants do all the work that Italians are too good for, same as most places. trouble is, such a model won't work here; we already have dregs of society to do all the menial tasks. We need decent people!!!

You mean like European millionaires who don't need to work?

you state about getting into Italy:

It was about the whole of the EU and there are very similar situations in all of the other Western countries.

- first one the same except of course, for longer stays you need to apply, kind of like how my family have to apply to go to Italy :-)

BS of course, as I have already said several times (replying without reading the posts you are replying to is trolling. If you don't understand what you read you are excused though...): to the countries Thailand gives free 30 days permits of stay on arrival Italy/the EU give free 90 days permits of stay on arrival.

And applying for longer stays in Thailand (Tourist Visas) doesn't even get you to those 90 days (besides costing you money and time)...

- second one much the same; there are requirements here, different to in Italy and definitely more restrictive, but in essence same concept; stay 3 years working and pay tax, apply for PR and (AFAIK) get it so long as you have been paying a decent amount of tax on income usually not less than 120,000b a month and have 3 years of continouus work permits/visa extensions;

Where do you see similarities?? In Italy/the EU you are not required to earn 15-18 times the average Italian wages, the requirement is to be above the poverty line and it's a little MORE, not LESS like in Thailand, if you have family.

Moreover, once you get your PR after your first 3 years in thailand () do Thailand allow PRs (and citizenship later on) for all of the foreign components of your family you may have with you (for example, children from a previous marriage)?

the lottery is a smoke screen; if you can tell me that there are 100 Italians applying so you cannot...

The 100 PRs per nationality limit as opposed to the 2,800,000 legal migrants today in Italy (a country of roughly the same size as Thailand) should make you realize Thailand's racist and xenophobic stance towards immigration but that seems out of your reach, never mind.

Since you have a Thai wife, I presume you can read and write Thai since it is a very simple language, far less difficult than the complex and beautiful language of Italian

It was the other way around, I have the Thai wife I have BECAUSE I could speak good proper Thai to a good level (I also speak Thailand's major dialect to a decent level).

I can't read and write Thai and while spoken Thai IS a very simple language (once you get a grasp on the tones) written Thai is a crazy nightmare learning which was, for me, not worth the effort nor the time (the exact opposite of spoken Thai, worth every last second I spent learning and improving it).

I have countless times witnessed group efforts of uni students brainstorming to properly write a joint written work in proper Thai or spending indecent amount of time to write simple things down in Thai (with no formal requirements) which would have taken an English or an Italian a twentieth or less of the time...

Thailand is only interested in people working,

So how come non-working pensioners have the easiest time of all..?

so no coming in with a massive wad of cash these days and buying a big house.

??

Ah... got it! You mean buy some Thai a big house.

After another 2 years, you can in theory apply for citizenship, not that easy, and probably all up 7 years is a more likely time frame than 5. I know plenty of western men who have done exactly this. Strangely enough most not married.

Wasn't it at least 5 years on a household registration card to ask for TC and at least 2 years processing time? 3+5+2= you are looking at a theoretical 10 years process... NEVER even HEARD or READ about someone getting it so "quickly" and if you are going to tell me that any of your plenty Western male friends has got it in less than (at the very least) 15 years I won't believe it.

Not that I believe you know plenty of Western men naturalized Thai anyway (we may have a much different concept of "plenty" of course)...

You mean Steve, that Thailand doesn't want a bunch of "conjugal tourists" marrying their first tee-rak they meet on Soi cowboy and getting Thailand PR and then citizenship?? Kinds sounds quite clever public policy to me. I guess, they are then forced to move back to the partners country.

Win-win I guess, and Piggy Muldoons comment about raising the average IQ's of both countries does comes to mind.

Doesn't Thailand exempt foreign women married to their Thai men tee-rak they met on a beach bar somewhere from PR requirements making it much easier for them to get citizenship?

"Win-win I guess, and Piggy Muldoons comment about raising the average IQ's of both countries does comes to mind."

Discriminations ain't pretty were they're aimed at you, are they..?

problem is Heng, BAF likes to have things his way. He isn't a businessman nor does he understand economics by the sounds of these things.

And yet who is the one who, at 30, doesn't need to work to make a living..?

Remember, he comes from a state where things are subsidised and many government services, are handed to you on a platter, for free. Its nice for first world countries to afford this, but for countries like Thailand, it is a little bit harder.

I am not asking for any social welfare kind of service/benefit/help from Thailand, not even the very small ones Thailand hands out to its citizens.

I pay my own way and please quote whatever I wrote which may have made you think otherwise.

You see, the problem with people like BAF, is they moan that Thailand won't let them in. But even if they could waltz in here and the visa laws were to their liking, I'm afraid a graduate a political science degree and is training to become a nurse would be lucky to earn, well, 15,000 baht per month. So he'll then be complaining that salaries in Thailand should reflect those in the rest of the world.

How many times have I to repeat that I already have properties, money and a monthly income and do not want to work in general and in 3rd world environments in particular?

(But oh, I forgot, BAF has a million euro of land in his portfolio with an income of 2000 euro per month!!! You'd figure, he'd be able to afford a half decent immigration lawyer himself with that money.)

Since you keep thinking you know better than my half decent immigration lawyers why haven't you answered the following?

I have long detailed my situation.

I'm still waiting for some of you Illuminati to show me how I can fully legally move to Thailand on a the long term basis needed to build one's own family's future.

My half decent immigration lawyers tell me the ONE applicable answer is working (slaving) here and that "long term basis" translates in "1 (ONE) year extensions"...

15K is hardly the stuff to build futures on. But, then I guess that is why the government has a 40K per month/per family rule for foreingers to live here with their wives, to ensure that people who are here are able to support themselves.

I don't know what that 15k is (your salary?) but I thought around Euro 300,000 (Baht 13,800,000) in the bank plus Euro 1,000,000 (Baht 46,000,000) in properties plus Euro 2,000/3,000 (Baht 92,000/138,000) in monthly rental/investment incomes should be enough to survive in a country where the average wage is around 7,000/8,000 Baht per month. Of course, I am no businessman nor do I understand economics...

The thing people like BAF tend to forget, is that we really live in a borderless world these days. But to survive anywhere, you need the skills that the market demands. Someone like him, even if all the visa rules were in his favour, wouldn't be able to make a living in Thailand. Doesn't speak the language

The same crystal ball you're using tells me you can't speak English but your Martian is quite good and your Venusian is passable (must work on the grammar though)...

and doesn't have the right skill set. He also doesn't appear to have the right disposition to live in Thailand, or at least, to be succesful here. He also has a neo-colonial attitiude of Thais as backwards inbred so-and-so's whos rules and regulations are not up to scratch for a civilsed European that he thinks he is. Pretty insulting to say the least.

Immigration-wise, I am saying they don't care about splitting families (they are not even granting any more 1 year extensions to foreign single parents supporting a Thai/half-Thai child!) and discriminate against foreign males (women married to Thai Men have it easier).

Is any of this not true?

I suggest BAF look at the experiences of one of our members - Rainman, a swiss guy who earns all his income offshore and yet manages quite well here. He hasn't found the situation staightfoward, but moving to a new country never is easy adminstratively (I've moved to the UK as an Australian), and not straightforward as BAF likes to beleive!!.

Never said it's straightforward to move to a Western country, I have said that is more straightforward (or much less comlicated if you prefer): "laws are clearer and fairer, enforcement is much more consistent".

And, in case you are married or supporting a Westerner (and in some other cases too), it's infinitely more straightforward.

Right. Move to Thailand, get a job, pay tax, apply.

How many times have I to repeat that I already have properties, money and a monthly income and do not want to work in general and in 3rd world environments in particular?

You don't even have to be married, actually, like you do in Italy.

How many times have I to repeat that you don't have to be married in Italy, you can do your "move to Italy, get a job, pay tax, apply" thing OR IF you're married, just apply.

Sitting on one's butt in Italy bleating about injustices won't get our complaining friend anywhere, I'm sorry to say.

I already knew what I am asked to do to try to get PR in Thailand (it's you -well, you too- who tried to fool readers into believing someone could get PR without having to work in Thailand, it seems you have now dropped it...).

I am asking you experts why should I be forced to work in order to be allowed to live with my wife in her homecountry when I ALREADY have properties, money and a monthly income which put me amongst the wealthy?

A simple enough question it would seem to me, yet no one of you seems able to answer it.

All you do is repeating "come to slave here" or "there are alternatives" (without of course mentioning them).

He needs to make some tough life choices that may include actually going to live and work in Thailand if he wants any kind of legal status there.

I think I am still going to happily leaving you your "tough choices" life in LOS, thank you very much for nothing.

I have enjoyed for years a very fun and "easy choices" hedonistic lifestyle in LOS as long as I managed to stay single.

Once I got married and the time for long term plans came, it's been bye bye Thailand.

Not because I didn't want to stay, because Thailand didn't want us.

I take it this thread is no longer moderated.

We have started with the menace of closing the thread down because we were listing too many negative aspects of Thailand and we have now ended with a free flow of OT and ad personam (me) posts all the while (on another thread) I got a warning from samran for having used the term "drivel" talking about mdeland's (another "prominent" Thai apologist) repetitive posts where he got replies to his posts addressing his arguments and he failed to follow on on them only to repeat the same unchanged arguments later on...

Is this a technique you are taught somewhere? Because you all sure are using it here.

Many guys here have got replies and answers to their many questions/arguments but haven't bothered to follow on on them and just kept repeating the very same arguments/points over and over without addressing my counterarguments which invalided/disproved/explained them.

Examples in my following replies...

Jing jing laew, mai dai hai bai nai. Mai me krai ma delete arai leuy.

Someone had.

The posts have now miraculously reappeared but I have copies (pre- and post-) to back this up.

Anyone interested can PM me.

How do you say "double standard" in Thai?

sorng madtatahn

Surprised you haven't learned that, being that Thai language and people are so simple.

Several posts (dbrenn's and samran's) in the dbrenn's thread have just "mysteriously disappeared"...

Can you translate this into Thai as well?

Permanent residents in Thailand have absolutely no restrictions on where they live. Where did you get that impression.

Even foreign tourists have no restrictions on where they travel, yet for hill tribes people born in Thailand:

Blue identity cards = restrict all movements outside the surrounding province. To travel out of the province or district, permission must be sought from the district head. If the duration of the travel is more than 10 days permission must be sought from the Provincial Governor. Offenders of this restriction face a heavy fine and a jail term.

Green cards with a red border = allow movement only within their immediate district (again, offenders are subject to heavy fines and jail terms)

Pink cards = holders must seek permission from the district head if they travel out of village or sub-district. To travel out of the district, they must seek permission from the governor. To travel out of the province, permission must be sought from the Permanent Secretary of the Ministry of the Interior.

People with no card may not travel at all. People with "full cards" aren't subject to any of the above restrictions.

Those hilltribe people are issued with Alien ID's only available to Burmese, Loations and Cambo's. They are not permanent residency cards.

What you say applies only to part of the estimed 550,000 hill tribes people (born) in Thailand.

As I have already written thrice: they can find themselves in different legal status.

Holding "blue cards" and those Alien IDs is just ONE of them. (Blue cards don't allow them to ask for PR and/or citizenship as I clearly said).

There have been hundreds of cases of hill tribes girls holding PRs smuggled to Japan to be exploited in the sex trade there who have later seen themselves denied back into Thailand because Thais said they lost their PRs and they should have "waited" (to be smuggled I presume...) to apply for Thai citizenship first anyway...

In some of those cases it took UN intervention and up to six months negotiations to get them repatriated and hosted in NGO shelters.

It's the very lack of Thai citizenship which facilitates their being smuggled to Japan, Cambodia, Mynamar and so on.

legal aliens for the purposes of citizenship, means PR. Nothing else. If both of the parents don't have PR, then the child isn't eligible.

Is this what you meant by "cutting me off at every turn"..?

BAF, post #52 (47 posts BEFORE your reply): They can find themselves in different legal status, ie holding "full cards", "blue cards", PR etc Under certain conditions (like holding "full cards" and residing 5 years in the same place) some of them can get a quasi-Thai citizenship but it doesn't allow them to freely move within the country and, above all, it can be stripped off them at the govt's will and the same ones holding this "Thai" citizenship could see themselves deported (against international laws and conventions) to wherever the Thais please...

"Thai children with foreign fathers" really doesn't apply to most hilltribe peoples in Thailand. Many hilltribe children don't have citizenship and are therefore not Thai.

You may want to read my posts and magically (re)get your answer...

...still, I know you're too busy pondering to bother reading my posts before replying to them so the brief synopsis is: the law object of this thread is worth discussing and worth bearing in mind since the hilll tribes' situation (actually, situationS as I have partly listed the different predicaments they can see themselves into) show how Thais can and do use laws similar to this one (if not this very one since we still haven't clear which situation it refers to) to deny or strip one's Thai citizenship off...

The table I posted shows that, from 1992 on, a child born to 2 legal aliens within Thailand can claim Thai citizenship (even if the marriage is unregistered).

Hey all you Pollyannas! There are tons of laws on the books, all over the world, that are crazy, and not enforced.

For Example

Instead of getting your panties in a knot, I challange anyone to produce evidence that someone HAS ACTUALLY LOST THEIR CITIZENSHIP due to this regulation.

If you can't, then why don't we all just shut the hel_l up on this non issue.

No one has ever lost/been denied his Thai citizenship right?

Can you say "Hill tribes"?

Can you count up to half a million?

I guess the answer to both counts is NO since this objection has already been made more than once in this very thread and has already got its answer...

Not manifest, but there... Wow, what a concept! Quite philisophical. I'll have to ponder the "there-ness" of the non-manifest and get back to you.

They may not be applying that law but the law is there.

Get it?

Still pondering..?

Right. Move to Thailand, get a job, pay tax, apply. I did it, and now I am a Thai citizen, and it's not all that hard. You don't even have to be married, actually, like you do in Italy.

Sitting on one's butt in Italy bleating about injustices won't get our complaining friend anywhere, I'm sorry to say. He needs to make some tough life choices that may include actually going to live and work in Thailand if he wants any kind of legal status there.

I see you're still posting your OT and personal stuff here... And this thread has been let become an OT mess and a discussion on the poster instead of the post. Quite a difference from the treatment I got replying to you on your thread and the moderating there.

How do you say "double standard" in Thai?

Sorry - I think you're mistaking Japan's laws for the impression of Japan's laws. (Except for getting Japanese nationality - which I will admit is a long and winding path - like Thailand's.).

i.e. Land in Japan on a first-world passport and you get 3 months on arrival. (no visa required).

Once you have a job, you can get your visa status changed without leaving the country.

And once you have a work visa - you can use the Japanese lines at immigration. (My wife has ILR in the UK - but she can only use the UK line when we're travelling together).

OK - The requirement to have a foreigner ID card is just the equivalent of the Japanese own ID card. It's basically so that you're required to notify the local authority when you move into an area, so that they know about you - and more importantly, who your employer is so that they can collect the local income tax.

The biggest hassle with Japan is the bureaucracy. Getting the paperwork approval for the work visa takes too long (and you need your original degree certificate), and getting the foreigner ID card takes a few weeks - and given you can't get the foreigner ID card until you've got the work visa, it can be a bit annoying in that you can't open a bank account until you get the foreigner ID card.

Add in that there's no 90 day reporting, and Thailand's rules are far more xenophobic than Japan.

Yes you are right bkk_mike, I admit I was especially thinking at their naturalization laws when I wrote that.

Amongst my wife's friends here where we live there are 3 Japanese women (my wife is part Japanese herself) who have followed their husbands working in the local Honda factory.

I was very surprised when one of them told me once about having, back in Japan, some kind of govt officers visiting her and asking her and her husband if they knew and what they thought of one of their neighbours (they didn't know him). It turned out he was a gaijin (farang) in the process of getting Japanese citizenship (BTW, AFAIK Japan doesn't allow dual citizenship).

In other words, Japan is apparently using the exact same medieval practices Thailand uses in these matters! My wife hasn't had any Italian govt officer going around our neighbourhood asking them if they thought she should get Italian citizenship...

Anyway I agree, Japan is overall better than Thailand on the counts of racism, xenophobia and discrimination (especially on the legislation and its actual enforcement). How better, I don't know Japan well enough to judge (but apparently you do and I have no reasons not to believe you).

Wow, you've done your research guy, my hat's off to you!!

Are you in the process of writing a thesis?

Yes... but it's on nursing

It is in my opinion indeed unfair.I am in the same situation and have come to terms with it,( but certainly hate it ) and also others who are not in the slightest bit bothered about ones own plight ( and who can realy blame them? ) I keep in mind the following.

You're born, you take shitt. You get out in the world, you take more shitt. You climb a little higher, you take less shitt. Till one day you're up in the rarefied atmosphere and you've forgotten what shitt even looks like. Welcome to the layer cake son.

And thats life, deal with it or don't. Good luck.

Hi englishoak, don't worry while it may seem like I am obsessed with this story, outside of Thaivisa I have completely different things on my mind

I am getting this second degree in nursing because we want to move to the USA (where I have already lived in the past).

I don't have to work but getting a part-time job will allow me a very easy (especially as a nurse) visa and green card and I plan to get PR and citizenship as soon as the required years pass. I am preparing for an exam and that's why I have some free time to post on Thaivisa...

We have "moved on" and been done (short annual visits apart, and last time it was her parents to come to Italy) with Thailand the day we left.