BAF

Drive a motorcycle where possible. Praise to the heavens I can do that in LOS. I wouldn't think of it in USA. Way to many reckless drivers & hit & run artists. Thaialand may have a few, but I think relative safe (outside of BKK) compared to USA's loony-tune drivers. Another advantage of living in Thai.

Ok, back to the topic: 1 liter of diesel is € 1.15 (USD 5.86 per US gallon) in Italy and my Opel Corsa diesel automatic car does 18-19 kms per liter (43.5 MPG) with the A/C on.

Benzina (gasoline/petrol) is € 1.35 per liter (USD 6.88 per US gallon)...

Too true, I too watched 'The great global warming swindle', certainly an eye-opener. For those of you who haven't yet,

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=44...=global+warming

Co2 emissions following temperature rises, not vice-versa, scientists jumping on the band-wagon because its the only way they can get funding etc, an hour and fifteen minutes but nonetheless very interesting viewing.

Thanks to robenroute for having mentioned it and thank you for the link, VERY interesting.

Overcome by a touch of hysteria are we?

The 10 million figure is a ridiculous postulation.

If someone can't cut the current system then byebye.

The 30 day stampers are hardly a great loss.

The Thai economy is hardly captive to these low life bottom feeders.

Several posts in this very thread should have made you realize that every one of us is someone else's "low life bottom feeders"...

It's obviously proven to be too hard (or too easy) a concept for you to grasp.

What about the other concept of the totally laughable idea of a 3rd world country (without any meaningful form of welfare offered to its citizens and with NO WELFARE AT ALL offered to its destitute guests) refusing folks who are several times richer than its own average citizen and who can LITERALLY only GIVE and not TAKE (money, expertise etc) from the country as "unwanted, miserable, low class tourists" (actual wording from a top brass delineating the new policies)?

Which is fair enough.

What though is not, is your generalizing rants that are so wrong and simplistically contrived that it is not worth answering them.

Obviously, that must be why we have been exchanging posts after all...

The sad part though is, that with the amount of money you have available, you could without much difficulty, have a great life here, give your family a secure future,

You obviously think you "know better than me" and I think I know "better than you"... We both have made our choices with our families. You are living with them in a 3rd world country, I am not.

and without distractions, such as having to work in a job you don't enjoy, like the vast majority of humanity, could travel, learn and communicate a lot of the realities you encounter. Because you are privileged enough not having to depend on working for an income.

That's one of my points actually, despite the alleged goal of those "new and improved" laws and maigo6's and mdeland's dreams of them actually making our life in LOS "easier and better", there is no legal way for a wealthy young foreigner to legally stay long term in Thailand unless:

1. working a job he doesn't want and deosn't need

2. opening a stupid business he doesn't want and doesn't need and recognizes as the stupid business proposition without economic sense that it is

3. getting married AND most probably having to fake a "fixed" monthly income

4. I am probably forgetting other legal and less legal ways and loopholes (BTW, wasn't this new and improved law supposed to also cure loopholes and exploitation of the "spirit" of the law......?)

Now you life in Italy, a place many people would dream to live, and from the rental income you have you can still afford a not too bad life there without having to work. But no, you have to go into nursing so you can one day secure citizenship in the states. Well, but there are many things going wrong too, such as a very insufficient social service net, that, maybe not as bad as in Thailand, does still leave many people without adequate health service.

So what then, if the states don't turn out "the best country available"?

Italy is indeed a very good place, overall, and I can say that I also live in a very good and enjoyable location but... Italy isn't "exotic" and exciting to me and the US are the sensible, responsible and "safe" alternative to get my fix of "adventure" and excitement as an half responsible and mature married man.

"insufficient social service net" and "health care" you say? That's the only real risk I see and a very easily solvable one = pay the insurance like millions of Americans are paying. Same "solution" as in LOS actually, with the "small" difference that for that you get top class health care, better than in Italy and probably the absolute best money can buy (and I am talking as a professional here)...

What if it still doesn't turn out OK? We are an 11 hours plane ride away from home sweet home, funnily enough it's practically the same distance as Rome-Bangkok...

I fear that as long as you carry your attitude, no place will be sufficient, and you are going to miss out on a lot of good things in life while wasting a major portion on being bitter.

You seem convinced, or you are simply trying to make it sound as if I am a restless, never satisfied, sad chap at the forever lasting search for the "Holy Gral"

I may disappoint you saying that almost every place I have visited/lived in has been "sufficient" and has given me many good and different things which I have enjoyed to the fullest at different stages of my life.

I am also acutely aware (and after my travel all the more so) that I have been VERY lucky so far and I assure you that whatever I seem to you I am anything but bitter and certainly NOT loosing out on the pleasurable things in life...

Anyhow, what do i care, even though the difficulties that come with living here, i do enjoy my married life here (yes, i know what "love" is). I don't close my eyes to the injustices here (if you read some of my many posts - you can see that many of my posts deal with these subjects). I hope though i am a bit more mature and fair in describing these injustices here.

After all it may simply be that I am still at that stage in your life when you want to scream for all to hear that you are not buying it and that BS still stinks even when served with tea biscuits in exclusive lounges...

BUT rental and investments incomes AREN'T acceptable income for the NON IMM "O" requirements...

what rubbish! this is a case were moderators should step in and point out misinformation. next thing will be a new thread by a newbie "PLEASE help! WHY is investment income not acceptable?"

Yeah, waiting for the mods or whoever else more informed than you and me to point out the rubbish...

I have had no input, influence or say of any kind in the Thai regulations regarding income required to obtain a visa. While I fully support the regulations and their enforcement, the laws, rules and regulations are wholly Thai. Don't go blaming me.

I am not blaming you for the regulations, I am giving my opinion on and comparing you to the makers of those laws since you share and "fully support" their views...

Under this "logic" all it takes to make you a worthless and unwanted "low quality" farang wannabe scum resident is a richer (than you) farang with your same mindset who sets the standards to suit his wealth.

Firstly, not my logic, your logic.

MY logic?!?

I've asked you at which level the bar is set too high?

You have replied when it's above your very own...

May I refresh your short memory?

----------

So at which level does it become outrageous for you?

At the level which you personally are no longer able to afford?

Yes, that would be one definition of 'outrageous' and I suspect outrageous to a lot more people than just myself.

----------

Also your own personal use of the abusive terms above.

And since you "fully support" the spirit of those laws...

Sorry to have assumed too much, it seems you support the spirit but not the... form(!). OK...

What do you think Thailand is, GuestHouse, a 1st world caring and undiscriminating social welfare state?!?

When have I ever suggested Thailand is an undiscriminating social welfare state. Quite the contrary, the absence of undiscriminating social welfare is one of Thailand's most commendable aspects.

May I (again) refresh your short memory?

----------

"The bottom line is if you can’t meet the minimum requirements you may well become a burden on the Thai government, so hats off to the Thai government for taking measure to ensure that you do not"

----------

Now, how can you possibly become a burden on the Thai govt if not in a welfare state scenario?!?

Are Cambodian beggars or illegal Burmese workers without a pot to piss in a burden on Thai taxpayers' (if such thing even exist...) money?

So come on BAF, tell us, what's her name and how much did she take you for?

Such "arguments" and getting personal at such a level are a clear indication of one thing only: you have no other argument left and aren't able to reply to my posts and arguments but in this way.

And, GuestHouse, if you are used to relate passionate discussing of Thai things on a Thai message board to cheating women and lost/stolen money, seeing your post count as opposed to mine maybe I should ask you (oh, and torito too, since it seems you are "writing his ideas" as well) "what's her name and how much did she take you for".....?

Nobody said that Thailand is a paradise, but maybe that is what you expected. Yes, Thailand is a developing nation with huge problems. The smallest of them though are wealthy westerners not being able to use their brains and money to set themselves up here properly.

If you have all that money and you still can't figure out a way to live here easily and comfortably then I have to assume you inherited the money since you clearly don't have the brains to have earned it. Actually, I don't believe you have anything like that amount of money, since the rest of your story doesn't make much sense either.

Contact Sunbelt Asia, they'll require proof of these claims, but will be able to use such proof to obtain visas for you without a hitch.

[...]

Given your low opinion of Thailand begs the question, why are you concerned that they might not want you?

Wake up and smell the Durian guys, re-read the thread and tell me exactly where and when (please quote me) have I said that I am trying to finding ways to stay in Thailand!!

Jeez, do you guys bother to read the posts to which you are replying or you just convulsively hit the reply button and scrap together and half off base response??

All I'm doing is replying to the core topic of this thread saying that yes, Thailand does seem to want us out. Their laws and immi regs prove that.

They are chasing away folks who are GIVING to the country and its people, not TAKING from them. But that isn't, clearly, what interests them, despite your and their claims to the contrary ("high quality folks" and the rest of such crap). I am also arguing that even if that was their aim (chasing away the undesiderable = the poor, in Thais' and many on this forum's eyes) that's unjust and stupid (even economically stupid) for the reasons outlined. And please re-read my bit about reciprocation and solving ours and their problems...

P.S. since you guys seem to get off tracked rather easily, here is the gist of the reply: I am NOT trying to secure a visa to stay in Thailand, as a married man I have no desire to live in Thailand, I lost the reasons for which to live in Thailand the moment I got married.

If you made a great living here, then i really wonder what you are on about with all your winging.

A great living entitles you here in Thailand to much more than back in the west - excellent health care in top hospitals, comparatively low taxes, excellent private schools with outstanding facilities for yuor children, luxurious housing, and a government that actively supports your stay.

It seems we really are on different wavelenghts... A great living was for a single guy with responsabilities with no one but himself!

Unless you a multimillionaire (in which case you could have in the West a much better hedonistic lifestyle than in a 3rd world country) you aren't going to make, in Thailand, a great living in the terms you are spelling out here!

Let's see:

"excellent health care in top hospitals" = CRAP emergency services. In a serious emergency you have very good chances to die or to get seriously "damaged" before getting to a good hospital (and that is if you live in Bangkok). No real auto-ambulances, moto-ambulances and eli-ambulances with competent and highly trained staff and no 911 (113 and 118 in Italy) type of service and efficency.

People aren't even used to get out of the way of screaming ambulances in the "Land of Smiles"..!

If you get to one of the FEW good hospitals alive and not further injured by the work of the "voluntaries" who have "rescued" you (often = sold to the hospital) you have to face inconsistent service and, above all, no accountability for medical errors and no protection from the laws nor effective legal ways of recurring and/or seeing your (nonexistent) customer rights enforced.

"comparatively low taxes" = since only fools and deep pocketed speculators with a high tolerance for risks, IMO, keep their money in 3rd world banking systems/stocks etc I don't care about this one since my money would safely remain OUT of Thailand.

"excellent private schools with outstanding facilities for yuor children" = I just have to laugh at this one "Excellent"? There is nothing excellent about most Thai schools apart the very few you find (again) in the few biggest cities. Maybe the excellence is in the way they ruin your children's brain with their antiquated learning methods and the way in which they pad your children's brains with mostly WRONG factual datas and handicap your children with Thai cultural notions and norms that will disadvantage and hinder them later on in their life.

"and a government that actively supports your stay" = ??? You are either trying to take the piss, dreaming or referring to those multimillionaires who I don't know what they are doing in Thailand...

"luxurious housing" = the only one amongst the things you have listed which is true. Even if I must say that I have mostly been living outside of the few bigger cities where you are able to find real luxurious housing, living in relatively cheap "luxurious housings" was part of my great living in Thailand

If you made such a great living here in Thailand, i really have to wonder though why on earth you have to enter the 'nursing' profession in order to get to live in the States. Generally, nursing is not exactly the sort of job in developed countries that earns one a great living, and if you had been able to make such a great living in Thailand than i wonder why you lack any other skills to go to the states. There is a certain discrepancy in your description.

I will just be working part-time since, like stated, I don't need to work (it doesn't mean I am "rich", by Western standards at least, but with my level of spending I am, let's say, "comfortable").

Nursing isn't my tool to earn a great living in the US, it's my quickest, easiest and surest tool to be able to get citizenship.

If they gave me a GC as easily as working part-time as a nurse without the need to work, I wouldn't.

Interesting also that making a great living here in Thailand gave you the free time to travel all over Thailand's villages to make such profound statements on village culture and society.

Being able to much more than comfortably live wherever I wanted to in Thailand and to freely move at my whim effectively pursuing "those widely available pussy and cheap booze" was an integral part of that great living, ColPyat.

Now, either you exaggerate a little here, or you just had it all and flunked it away, which would explain your bitter posts.

And if you "actively" tried to avoid marriage, then why did you marry? Seems that more things went wrong with your life than what Thailand had done to you, if marriage forced you to forsake a life of hedonism that you chose for yourself.

You know, there is this strange orrible thing called love... I guess you have never had the misfortune to stumble on it...

For great that my lifestyle and my living were, they are even greater now. I didn't think it was possible but it seems it is...

I never came to Asia to find "normality, stability and safety", and the obvious risk is that things might go wrong one day.

And neither did I, ColPyat.

That's why I left as soon as I got married and with the prospect of raising afamily and hence had my old priorities replaced by the drive to seek "normality, stability and safety".

Can't believe I'm still having to repeat the same elementary concept...

But then, i will have nobody else to blame than me, and would rather shoot myself than making the whole of Thailand responsible for my own decisions to suit my own mistaken self worth.

You may blame me that i might be irresponsible towards my wife and son, but then, if i would have made the sensible decision - i would have never met my wife, and my lovely son would have never arrived.

I still might return to the west with my family one day, things such a school fees and rising nationalism here is a worry. But that is not the fault of the entire Thai male population - this is the natural problems of a developing nation.

The world doesn't turn around myself - and most Thais do have far more problems than we have in their own country, without the option of going somewhere else when things turn nasty.

And many Thais have much less problems in our home countries than we have in theirs, and still with the option of going back to their home country if things turn nasty...

So WF what?

Sorry if i sound harsh, but i feel you are a bit too bitter, and maybe, a few years down the line, you realize that your opinions are more than a bit influenced by your own present situation than by facts.

Are you confusing me with the OP or what?

I could be living in LOS with my wife faking a 40k monthly income, I don't because of that "obvious risk is that things might go wrong one day" which you yourself admit, because I am responsible and don't want to put my family at the mercy of the ruthless Thai govt and society should any thing "go wrong" (you see, I am "rich" enough not to have to) and because Thailand has no appeal to me as a married man.

Trying to live a normal family life there you get all the negatives of a 3rd world country like Thailand (corruption, discrimination, classism, racism, poor infrastructure, dangerous health care system, bad schooling, dirt, foul odors, noise, no laws, no enforcement, no rights, no cultural life, no real friends, no deep integration with the fabric of society, awful weather, crap food etc etc) without getting to enjoy any of the positives (widely available pussy and cheap booze)...

I think most of us will be getting our visa information from more reliable sources than the eyes clouded with anger OP. Remember a year ago when the visa reg changes were supposed to cause this mass exodus? My town has been inundated with new residents since then, and so it goes. There's quite a history of "henny penny the sky is falling" delusions over the years amongst the more confused in the farang population.

I thought we had already touched on that "resident" thing mdeland...

Or are all of them that "one day at a time at most" kind of folk of yours who just like to call themselves "residents" for a laugh..?

All of them, you included (and you before many other of them actually, from what you have told us...) could be gone at the next monthly or three monthly or annual begging for a visa.

So at which level does it become outrageous for you?

At the level which you personally are no longer able to afford?

Yes, that would be one definition of 'outrageous' and I suspect outrageous to a lot more people than just myself.

So you are nothing more than another one of those "setting the standards" on themselves...

Under this "logic" all it takes to make you a worthless and unwanted "low quality" farang wannabe scum resident is a richer (than you) farang with your same mindset who sets the standards to suit his wealth.

Pathetically stupid.

But get back to the ‘actual pitiful’ sums that Thailand requires foreigners to have in order to meet the minimum financial requirements for a visa.

They are reasonable minimum financial requirements to demonstrate the ability to meet minimum needs of keeping yourself, provide yourself with a home, and luxuries like health care.

It is not at all unreasonable for Thailand to set these limits, the limit are extremely reasonable and have not changed in real terms for years.

BTW, I have more than 1 million Euro worth of properties in Italy (from which I get rental income) plus about € 350000 in cash and short term investments and my monthly disposable income is several times 40k Baht BUT AFAIK rental and investments incomes AREN'T acceptable income for the NON IMM "O" requirements...

Why? They want you out.

Where has gone the "investment visa", by definition designed to attract wealthier and more desiderable types?

Have they upped the requirements? 5 million, 10 million baht? NO, THEY HAVE SCRAPPED IT.

Why? They want you out.

The bottom line is if you can’t meet the minimum requirements you may well become a burden on the Thai government, so hats off to the Thai government for taking measure to ensure that you do not

What do you think Thailand is, GuestHouse, a 1st world caring and undiscriminating social welfare state?!?

It's a 3rd world cesspool with more than half its pop still at little more than subsistance farming level, it's a country which (being optimistic and with acid drugs help) provide VERY FEW social security type of services for its citizens (AND NONE FOR FOREIGNERS) and has VERY FEW safety nets available to its citizens (AND NONE TO FOREIGNERS).

I can see it now what the Thai govt is really scared of: endless hoards of skint foreigners living on the (non-existent) Thai dole and claiming (non-existent) Thai free housing, schooling, healtlh care like the Thais actually do where they are granted them: IN OUR HOME COUNTRIES.

Are we talking about the same country GuestHouse?

The OP revealed the falicy of his own thinking in his very first line.

This country has made promises, contracts, and implied contracts with the foreigners

Thailand has made no promises, no contracts (implied or otherwise).

Oh... no... this country simply keeps retroactively changing the laws (and their interpretations and actual applications) under which many foreigners establish themselves and their families in Thailand in the first place...

There are however minimum income/age requirements to be allowed a visa to live in Thailand - And let's be honest, the minimum income levels are pittiful.

Several times the Thai average is "pitiful"?

So at which level does it become outrageous for you?

At the level which you personally are no longer able to afford?

The transition from living in a safe, comfortable welfare state to the typical day to day life in a land like LOS is difficult, if not impossible, for many farangs. The guarantees they were used to back home don't apply there. The frequent changes of government policy wouldn't be relevant in lands with a safety net. It pays to be aware that LOS and other Asian lands have made no provision for lasting farang security. I have everything I need in this cold northern land, except the warmth and comfort of a long leisurely break in LOS, which I can easily finance by staying where I am to earn for it, so I have the best of both worlds. IMO, my way is best.

My point is that I need living in a "safe, comfortable welfare state", its "guarantees" and its "safety nets" ONLY as a married man raising a family.

So, "my way" is to live in the West as long as I am a married man raising a family and to go back to a LOS-like 3rd world country if/when I go back being a single guy looking for "warm leisurely breaks"...

...with the difference that those "breaks" wouldn't be "breaks" but pleasant everyday reality like they have been for 4 years of my life.

I am sorry, but i am not exactly impressed. There are people with far more years of "deep interaction", who did not leave when the period of 'i am sick of third world countries' set in.

You have grandly missed it.

I left ONLY once (and ONLY because) I got married since I knew that no normal life is possible in Thailand (and in practically ANY other 3rd world country).

Were I still a single guy I would still be happily living in Thailand and happily enjoying the only kind of life 3rd world countries like Thailand are great for.

Thanks for making my point - 4 years on the fringe, convinced to know everything, and not able to make a living here, and bitter because of it.

Yawn.

What is this supposed to mean?

I thought you were smarter than this.

I WAS "making a living" there, and a great one at that.

I was also ACTIVELY trying to avoid the situations (ie falling in love -> getting married -> raising a family) which would necessarily see me back at valuing and seeking normality, stability and safety, in other words, going back to the West.

If you are meaning that you have managed to find in Thailand normality, stability and safety for your children ("making a living"?) , then good luck to you.

And your children.

BAF- Your posts are stunning! You are so certain that it's all about you and that your views are the only true view about Thais.

Since I focus on facts and arguments I don't feel the need to personalize the thread like you do evidently having nothing else to offer.

This thread is all about Thailand wanting us out or not.

The rest of us, for example, who doubt that "most" rural Thai men are drunken lazy good-for-nothings are "blind day dreaming apologists."

And I do have said that rural Thai men mostly do their share of the work in the villages.

My point was that their share is less than rural Thai women's share.

Are you confuting that or not?

Have you even considered how many working age males in the average Thai village you've visited are away working for the day/week nearby? How many are working elsewhere in Thailand? How many are working in another country?

Have YOU even considered how many working age FEmales in the average Thai villages I've visited are away working for the day/week nearby? How many are working elsewhere in Thailand? How many are working in another country?

Have you really interviewed a sufficient number of rural Thais in sufficient depth to form a meaningful view re most rural Thais?

And anyway, scientific researches, numbers and stats to work on, are very difficult to come by in these type of countries and their reliability, when they exist and you get them from the authorities, is mostly of the "laughable grade".

Have you considered how deeply you are insulting the family members, loved ones and friends of other posters?

???

I thought this was a discussion between adults...

Now you've added to your sweeping, simplistic generalizations even further. You can only have a "normal" life in a country like the US; certainly not in a thrid world country.

I said I can't have a normal (to me) life in any 3rd world country (like Thailand). I can anywhere in the West.

If it sounds so out of the world to you well, we have different concepts of normal family lives. I'm glad your family is doing great in Thailand.

And who cares what happens to Thailand because you won't be there. Wow.

WOW, you have managed to almost completely turn upside down what i've said

I DO care because I COULD be there!

And why should I feel a moral obligation to wish Thailand well anyway?

In case you didn't know, countries compete with each other.

We are the only fools to talk so much about helping others beating us (and actually helping them sometimes)...

As pointed out above, in time you may see that most expats everywhere go through bitter stages, and some never escape such bitterness. Right now, it's all about you and how, with your vastly deeper and otherwise superior knowledge of Thais, you know how bad "most not all" Thai men are. Wow. Well, you won't see me generalize about Italian males from your posts. But wow.

I haven't any special point to make about Thai men, believe me. I have just been confuting others' replies to one of the OP's points since I felt they were wrong.

...And Italian men are more lazy/less hard working than English men

I am sorry, but i am not exactly impressed. There are people with far more years of "deep interaction", who did not leave when the period of 'i am sick of third world countries' set in.

You have grandly missed it.

I left ONLY once (and ONLY because) I got married since I knew that no normal life is possible in Thailand (and in practically ANY other 3rd world country).

Were I still a single guy I would still be happily living in Thailand and happily enjoying the only kind of life 3rd world countries like Thailand are great for.

I am still looking at Thailand as my "Plan B" in case I and my wife parted ways.

And since there isn't any indication that it could possibly be any time soon, I take all of these news about new regs, restrictions, laws, coups, FBAs etc as very good news because they are what are going to give Thailand a much needed kick in the ass and will (hopefully) make it once again a good and "welcoming" playground for my possible future needs...

Until Thailand changes (or at least even begins to want to change) its 3rd world culture, it's bound to stay, deservingly, a 3rd world country.

My personal interests and wishes for the future of Thailand are largely coincident with the Thai ruling classes' ...

No wonder that people get a slightly skewed idea about life for the average Thai when most interaction with the natives during a relatively short stay was with whom you can meet during the "adventure" destinations in a developing nation, where you get lots of "available pussy and cheap booze".

Reality for most Thais is rather different though.

Careful to assume any thing. I got pretty fluent in Thai (my native language is Italian, see how good my English is? This is the English I picked up in my little over a year stay in the US and my Thai is almost as good, very basic reading/writing skills though) and I was young, fit and very "adventurous". I have been seeking and enjoying those "available pussy and cheap booze" in many different places and situations ALL across Thailand and Thai social classes, I have 4 years of deep interactions with all kinds of Thais in all kinds of places (and I haven't made any farang friends in Thailand since, for various reasons, I have frequented them VERY little). As you know we don't fit in any of their social classes and are thus free to move across them as much as our education, money and smarts allow us hence getting to know and interact with very different kind of peoples, probably more than we could do in our home countries and certainly much more than Thais themselves could ever dream...

Call me what you want but I believe I have a much better idea of the average Thai's everyday life and Thai culture (and I remember you that the average Thai, by the sheer force of the numbers and stats, is a villager, not the small -and still of moslty peasant origins- Bangkokian and some other smaller "big city" middle class) than most of the blind daydreaming Thai apologists on these boards.

For the urban working classes it is mostly very hard work in factories, many hours of OT, both husband and wife working. And in farms people do hang out and do nothing, because in the the dry season there simply is nothing to do. When though wet season starts people work very hard, from before sunrise until after sunset, and that goes on until harvest.

When it's farming time (or building a house or ...) they all farm together but when it's over women have something to do and men just drink and gamble (women do that as well, simply don't do ONLY that).

Elsewhere, the men would be taking care of the house (I mean maintenance, upkeeping and upgrading stuff etc) but here it simply isn't "part of the culture"...

They all live in dumps. Villages are often dirty dumps when with some care they could be much better and more liveable places WITH NO MONEY REQUIRED, JUST SOME WORK during the idle times.

Obviously in a country like Thailand, with such enormous social inequalities, you will have a huge underground economy, and yes, you will have slums, desperation, and large sectors of society who have given up all hope.

Go back to to the days of the industrial revolution in the west, and you can read about very similar conditions in descriptions of those times.

NO. Men's and women's roles have always been much different in the West than typical and traditional Asian (and particular SE Asian) roles even at the time (not so long ago) when we ourselves were poor, developing and male dominated societies.

For example, it's never been a so integral part of any Western culture (as it is Thai/SE Asian) to let women do HARD WORKING men's jobs with men laying around drunk in the background, or to have women figthing wars with the men, on the front line.

You see something very similar, for example, in some parts of South America yet I have never witnessed there "so many young women working as construction workers and garbage collectors as in the Land of Smiles"

Yes, i have already stated that i do agree with the point that presently the government is rather xenophobic, no debate on that point. And i am not blindly in love with Thailand so i don't see anymore the many serious problems this country has. And i do accept that the new regulations regarding visas make undue pressure to lower income mixed culture families, it is so bad that many families are split up because they cannot get visas to the home countries of the foreign partner.

But i want to clearly distance myself from the not very intelligent sweeping generalizations made here in this thread. Reality is a lot more complex. Often here, as shown, people who lack the ability of adapting do project their own failures on Thailand, and extrapolate from this position to judge the whole people.

Complain about the new visa rules, but please don't make unjustified judgments on large sectors of Thai society. Their live is not exactly easy either.

Distancing oneself from what one believes untrue generalizations is one thing, distancing oneself from "sweeping generalizations" just because they are "sweeping generalizations" and regardless of their trueness is entirely another.

These evil "generalizations" are nothing else than the observation and the description of the "average", "typical", "normal", "usual", "general".

They aren't meant to cover all cases and to describe everybody. They mean MOST, not ALL.

"Thais are xenophobic" (BTW, a true generalization IMO).

It doesn't mean each and every one of them. It simply means most of them (maybe the 50.001%).

Go to Burma, Laos, or Cambodia.

I did, many times.

That's why I wrote "Men's general laziness and exploitation of women is hardly Thailand's exclusivity anyway. I have witnessed it in many other 3rd world countries around the world."

They are extremely similar cultures to Thai's and most of what has been said about Thai women/men's work ethic apply to those countries as well.

Still, IME Thailand is the worst offender in this regard (and that was the meaning of my "in how many countries have you seen so many young women working as construction workers and garbage collectors as in the Land of Smiles"?)

I didn't mean to say that it happens ONLY in Thailand but I realize that this is maybe what you are confuting (it's confusing because ColPyat quoted only part of my post and not the following "Men's general laziness and exploitation of women is hardly Thailand's exclusivity anyway. I have witnessed it in many other 3rd world countries around the world.")

To you and Colpyat: in how many countries have you seen so many young women working as construction workers and garbage collectors as in the "Land of Smiles"?

Care to list a few of them?

In many under-developed and developing countries. India especially, far more than here in Thailand.

Is India (on which I can't comment since I have no experience of it) your only entry on that list or can you offer some other example of those "many" under-developed and developing countries?

You know, it's to see if we can track a pattern... For example, in piss poor under-developed and developing Eastern European countries YOU DO NOT see young women working as construction workers and garbage collectors as you commonly see in Thailand...

So, what does this tell you? What does the fact the you don't see it happening in certain under-developed and developing countries?

And what does the fact the you see it happening only in (certain) under-developed and developing countries?

P.S. Can someone with meaningful Indian experiences comment on this "India especially, far more than here in Thailand"?

Hey BAF.....ok thanks for the clarification. Nice to hear a European speaking well of the US-a rarity these days for sure.

Most of the Europeans talking rubbish about the US do so just for ideological reasons and have ZERO actual experience of the US and the Americans.

however the safest or best place to raise a family??? Huh???

Although a lot depends on where you live, most places are as safe as most places in any other Western country.

As to the best place to raise a family, it's still the country where your children will have the best opportunities to make something of their lives.

If they have the will and the capabilities and if you give them a good support, I see nowhere else where they have a better chance to succeed in whatever they want to.

The present gov. is an embarrassment and a crime...and future probably no better....

I don't like many things about the current administration but that said, show me the exemplary govt they should be following...

I don't see much better around.

Believe me, live for a while anywhere in Western Europe and you won't see your govt as so instrusive and bad as you do now

As a born and raised Cali boy, man that place has gone to the dogs....and living there as a resident is a whole lot different than on the tourist visa-not like here at all!!!

I won't be doing any thing much different when I'll move back there.

and that is a big move for your wife or is she in Italy with you now???? Has your wife spent any time in USA??? Is she ok with limited Thailand visits and being away from her family??? Really I just wonder about that as many Thai's "Kittung Ban" when they emigrate....

She knows the US and, more recently, we have been in France and Germany. She prefers Italy for the people, the food and (compared to Germany and France) the weather. Italian lifestyle is, in many ways, much more similar to Thai's than American's is.

She is a very atypical un-Thai Thai (to be precise she is 75% Thai and 25% Japanese) and she doesn't miss Thailand, she misses just her parents. She has visited them last summer and they had visited us in Italy the year before.

She is very well adapted here (speaks Italian, works, has many Italian and some Thai and Japanese friends, is best friend with my sister who has her same age, has a very good relationship with my mother etc) and that's why she would like not to move to the US.

Without getting into my conception of a higher power or the fundamental nature of the universe, I am not sure I have an entitlement to live anywhere for longer than one year at a time. I tend to take things one day at a time at most. Living in the immediate present is the best. Today, here; maybe tomorrow, not here. I don't live in fear or resentment over the reality of the need to adapt to circumstances as they arise.

Living "one day at a time at most" isn't what has given my home country free high quality health care and free high quality schooling nor if my father had been living "one day at a time at most" I would have had the education, the care and the opportunities which I have had.

Thank you but I gladly leave your "conception of a higher power and the fundamental nature of the universe" and your living "one day at a time at most" to you and to your lucky son (who, BTW, is surely going to have "incredible opportunities" in the land and the culture you see fit for him to grow and get educated in...).

Now, he also goes on about Thai men and insinuating that they are lazy, yet he doesn't want to get a job, which, money aside, sets a good example for his son.

I don't see the logic.

And yet is so very simple for someone who is not ignorant of the reality of the average Thai's everyday life and is not a blind daydreamer desperately trying to defend every thing Thai...

The OP is saying he already has enough money (through past working/inheriting or whatever else) to provide for his family while the children of those lazy Thai men laying drunk around their villages are going around barefoot...

Get it?

BTW, I am not saying that ALL Thai men are like that (and neither is the OP), maybe not even MOST Thai men are like that, but certainly very many of them are.

In my experience and in my opinion, the average Thai woman's work ethic is undoubtedly stronger than the average Thai man's (and neither of them is impressive...).

The reciprocating sh@t comment is a bit over the top IMO....and in the US you may be on the recieving end-as an immigrant....especially with your Thai wife....racism and xenophobia are not limited to LOS...

I know very well the situation for a foreigner in the US and how it compares to many other places. The US is one of those countries I have lived in.

I have lived on the West coast (and travelled around several WC states) on back-to-back 90 days permits of stay on arrival for over a year.

As I have written in the "Thailand is Down..." thread, the United States of America is, for me, the greatest country on earth (or the "least bad", if you want to put it that way).

Thailand (and anywhere else outside of the Western world) is nothing else than a (dangerous) playground, it isn't a place where the values and principles in which I believe are normally taught, believed, shared, practiced or even understood...

Why have I lived 4 years in Thailand and want now to move to the US? Because the US is the best country to live a "normal" life as a married man and to have a family while Thailand is (was) one of the best playgrounds for a single young guy looking for cheap and widely available p.ussy and cheap booze AND with an almost perfect cultural setting (the same one which is holding it back as a 3rd world country and which many blind daydreamers are praising on this very thread) to enjoy it all.

I am also confused...you state you don't need to work but are moving to America to work????

I will just be working part-time since, like stated, I don't need to work (it doesn't mean I am "rich", by Western standards at least, but with my level of spending I am, let's say, "comfortable").

I haven't been working during my previous 1 year stay in the US, I have just enjoyed living there as a "long time tourist" pretty much like I've done for 4 years in Thailand.

Anyway good luck with the move and your new profession.

Grazie

'Where were the men', asked the British? At that time, they were performing the socially sanctioned act of making merit by living as monks in the temples. Not all men were monks, but many were.

So, just how many of them were monks? You make it sound as if the British couldn't find them because MOST of them were living in the temples...

The British were very hard-pressed to convince the Burmese that England had the sort of progress that Burma should emulate.

The Burmese were shown pictures of Windsor Castle and other structures to prove the superiority of British civilisation; nevertheless, the grey walls at Windsor did not impress the Burmese who thought that the glittering gold of the Shwedagon Pagoda was far superior to anything Britain could produce.

Today the UK is one of the rich fat countries refugees (with Burmese amongst them) are flocking to and Burma is the isolated forgotten 4th world country whose starved citizens are trying to escape from to go slaving their lives away in a neighbouring 3rd world country such as Thailand where the illegal under-the-minimum wages they are handed out by their Thai chiefs are more than they can hope for at home...

The OP only has to look around a bit more carefully to find the men working.

And why is it that you haven't to look around any carefully at all to find women working?

For example, I have not seen too many female tuk-tuk drivers, truck and taxi drivers in Thailand.

Of course: when compared to farming and construction working, they are the "comfy" ones...

93 out of 45,000 TV's feel oh so maligned and unappreciated by the Thai government.

And 54 out of 45,000 TV's feel oh so welcomed and appreciated by Thailand...

I think if the Thai govt really wanted foreigners to leave you would not see the phenomenal growth we are seeing in the farang population. Compare the numbers of farangs living in Thailand decade by decade over the last fifty years here. Better yet, check out the increases in the last three. This last year or two here in Hua Hin the farang population has probably doubled. Much of this is due to the new visa regs which encourage a one year visa and the sense of security and belonging that comes with that as opposed to the old "run to the border" ridiculousness of years past.

What "population"?? What "living"?? Virtually all of them are nothing else than "long term tourists". How many of them (you included) have PR or any other "right" (paid-for concession) to stay for any longer than 1 (ONE) year at a time?