BAF

Personally I was being sarcastic to the thread in a manner of stating various things found in TV forum.These subjects can be found in the news clippings as well as the general threads,some are personal observations.

Either way I was not Thai bashing,and as I stated,I would not use these similar behaviors towards others be they Thai or Martians.

And you have even been so kind as to have the Thais keep in foreign banks just THB 400,000 to 800,000 when to really reciprocate their requirements we should make them keep in no interests deposits the equivalent of 50 to 100 times our homecountries' average monthly wages (AS THEY DO).

How does EUR 150,000 of Thai money in a no-interests EU bank account (for at least 3 months prior to application, of course) sound for a 1 year extension based on being married to a EU national?

How does EUR 300,000 of Thai money in a no-interests EU bank account (for at least 3 months prior to application, of course) sound for a 1 year extension for an over 50yo retired Thai?

Explain this then. Australia requires everyone, except New Zealand citizens, to get a visa. At present, it will cost out about $20. Why hasn't everyone retaliated against Australia? From experience, after the Irish and NZ passports, the Australian passport is one of the easiest in the world to travel on....

For the same reasons for which we are not retaliating Thai immigration laws..?

Anyway, the ETA visa is recognized as equivalent to visa free by the US and the EU since it's "automatically" granted to us and the AU$20 is the processing fee asked by the official Aussie website not the cost of the visa. Besides the official website, also travel agencies and airlines can issue ETA visas and each of them can ask for whatever processing fee they like or not charge anything at all (they don't have anything to pay to the OZ govt). With some of them Aussie visas are in fact free.

So, as an Italian a 3 months stay in Australia visa-wise costs me: AU$ 20 to AU$0 - EUR 12,5 to EUR 0 - THB 540 to THB 0

A 3 months stay in Thailand visa-wise costs me: AU$ 125,5 - EUR 79 - THB 3400 (which are the costs of the EUR 35 the Thai embassy in Rome charges for single entry tourist visas + the THB 1900 extension. And this is not counting the hassles and inconvenience of getting the extension itself).

So even if I had (stupidity, ignorance, laziness, urgency) to pay the full processing fee for the online OZ visa, an equivalent Thai visa (for which I still have to go twice to the Thai embassy in Rome and twice to an Immigration office in Thailand) would cost me almost seven times as much.

That must be why everyone hasn't retaliated against the Aussies...

You made a lot of valid points that small minded people do not want to see nor can realise.

When the US decided that too many Italians where coming to the US and not returning to Italy, they created a ridiculous visa fee.

Italy retaliated in kind, and all the Catholic (I want to see the Vatican Americans), and loads of tourists where so outraged at the tourist fees they had to pay, that the US govt. quickly abandoned the visa idea.

Equality can only be gained by matching fire with fire.

Yes, yours is a perfect example.

In 1920 the US started to ask a $10 visa fee from each and every foreigner wanting to visit the USA (it wasn't just a thing with Italy, it was unrelated to overstayers and the Vatican had no role). Their move was in retaliation of other govts' visa fees and the US hadn't been asking, up to that time, any visa fee.

Many foreign governments unjustly hit by the $10 fee quickly retaliated themselves and the end result was the visa free agreement with Germany, Italy, Belgium, Denmark, Esthonia, Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, Japan and Russia, a reduced fee (from $1 to $4) for France, Bulgaria, the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Czechoslovakia, Jugoslavia, Austria, Chile and Spain, a reduced fee of $6 for Turkey and the $10 fee for the rest of them.

So the system quickly found a balance and fee were abolished for those countries not taxing American tourists and reduced to levels corresponding to those of the other countries still doing so.

Blah, Blah, Blah, Blah.

Allow me a pretty general yawn then.

As usual, that's all the smiling blind daydreaming Thai apologist brigade can produce.

Maybe this Thai men who stand outside in the poring rain have to quite smoking, then they can stand inside like the rest of us......

Well, that's all dbrenn could came up with to make the Thais appear like poor victims: "queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa", as if it's something unique to Thais dealing with Western embassies and never mind that, for example, the visa section's waiting area of the Italian Embassy in Bangkok is thrice the size of the visa section's waiting area of the Thai Embassy in Rome...

In that other thread I didn't want to sound like I was ranting and have my post deleted so I ignored dbrenn's "poetic license" but still... LOL!

BAF,

I think you make a lot of good points and agree with you.

TNX voa

Someone (like dbrenn, who seems no more interested in a reply) may ask: "Try asking a Thai man who is queuing up outside a western embassy in the peeing rain just to get a tourist visa how fair he thinks the the immigration policy of the west is."

Now, what we first have to do, is to realize that the vast majority of those asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are women. Try looking for the official stats about Thai immigration in your homecountries and most likely you will find that, like in my own homecountry, much more than 50% (in Italy it's around 75-80%) of the Thais residing in Western (and not only) countries are women.

Try asking yourself why and you will see how genuine a tourist those folks asking for tourist visas outside western embassies are and how much of Thai money are they going to spend as tourists in our homecountries...

Next: how fair it is that westerners can come to Thailand whenever they choose, in many cases visa free, and stay as long as they like by exploiting loopholes in the system. Thais have an awful lot of trouble just to be granted a visa for one short trip to the west. How fair is that?

A. How many Thais want to come to Western countries for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant? How many Westerners come to Thailand for genuine tourism and how many to work/live as a dependant?

B. How many of those Thais (legally and illegally) working in the West send back home the money they make in the West? How many Westerners (legally and illegally) working in Thailand send back home the money they make in Thailand?

C. How many Thais touring/working/living in the West exploit the countless benefits, grants and welfare state type of services the Western countries offer to their citizens and foreigners? How many Westerners touring/working/living in Thailand exploit the almost non-existent benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to its own citizens and the pratically zero (as in nothing, nada, zilch, nawt, zip) benefits, grants and welfare state type of services Thailand offers to foreigners?

D. To the countries Thailand grants easy access (basically 1st world countries) the West grants easier access (for example, free 3 months permits of stay on arrival for Americans). Besides, Thailand (like everyone else) has different visas and immi regs for different nationalities and some of them (not from Western nor 1st world countries) have an easier time than us.

E. All people write about are always Western tourist visa, what about Western PR laws, Western citizenship laws and how they compare to their Thai equivalents?

There are very good reasons (reply to the points A, B and C and you may see them by yourself) for which tourist visas are easier to come by for a 1st world country's citizen than for a 3rd world military junta country's citizen...

Life isn't fair, is it? Well, I don't say it is but excuse me if I believe it should be and we should do what we can to make it fairer or as fair as possible. BUT, there is nothing we can do to change Thai immigration law so there is no point getting your knickers in a twist over it, right?

WRONG, there IS something we can do. And whenever that's been applied it's been proven it works.

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

Reciprocating Thailand's (among other things) immi and ownership rules it is (or should be...) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)?

imagine administering 189 different sets of rules and regulations based on 189 bilateral treaties with 189 (or however many) countries in the world.

I leave imagining it to you, I don't have to imagine anything since I've been studying matters like these for 4 years (apparently well enough to get a degree).

It's painfully obvius you ignore the HUGE MOUNTAIN of national and international laws, conventions, regulations, agreements, pacts, treats, stipulations, bilateral and multilateral, UN and non-UN patronized ALREADY regulating international relations.

Something like reciprocating Thailand's immi laws would add NOTHING to the already existing complexity dealing with countless different particular situations, policies etc etc etc varying from country to country.

I mean, the EU can't even harmonise their mobile phone tarriff rates and you are proposing this?

What are you talking about? It's not the EU which grants citizenships, it's still its single members who each grant their own citizenships.

As for harmonisation (or lack thereof), isn't this another area where the EU has still lots to learn from Thailand (a single country) where the vastly different and conflicting local interpretations, applications and enforcements of the national laws are nothing less than proverbial?

BTW, I bet that if faced with such a measure from the EU, Thailand wouldn't be spending so much of its politicians' and bureaucrats' time debating and legislating on matters like what time closing the bars (another thing they seem unable to "harmonise" and yet spend a lot of time on)...

All countries should do what is in their best interests.

And that's precisely why I believe we should be RECIPROCATING Thai immi laws.

Some countries' citizens are being abused and deprived of some of their basic human rights (like, for example, that of being able to peacefully live with one's family) and some of those same countries' citizens' wifes (we can't write "spouses") and children are being discriminated in their "smiling" homecountry because of their husband's/father's race.

I apologise if these are trifles to you.

If that means accepting immigrants because immigration is a good thing for the economy, then so be it. Who really cares what the other guy is doing?

Because the "other guy" is economically exploiting your society and, at the same time, economically and socially screwing you in his homecountry, that's why we should care.

Reciprocating Thailand's immi rules it is (or should be) very clear what Thailand would lose but what exactly do we stand to lose (provided they wouldn't quickly do an about face when realized we are serious about it)?

If we had 189 countries settling for some muddling mediocre status quo, we'd all be up the creek without a paddle.

You may be right after all, Thailand maintains different sets of (amongst other things) labor and immi rules for different nationalities and for different sexes and IT IS "up the creek without a paddle"...

Anyway, as one with dual passports, I'm not too worried. I'm confident my Thai one is safe. And at the moment, it is just as important to me to have the Thai one as it is the Australian one.

Who ever said you should be worried? AFAIK it has never happened to half-farangs but, just in case, don't push too hard your luck with some (real) Thai more powerful than you since they have the legal means to practically do as they please with you and your quasi-Thai citizenship...

In other words: of the two, your farang passport is the "real deal", the "sure thing", and your Thai passport is the toy one.

rant deleted

You guys are thinking way too much this afternoon. You are worrying about stuff that isn't going to happen. Drink less coffee, hydrate with fresh water, and walk in the morning or afternoon and enjoy a bit of nature. Your child is not going to be stripped of his Thai citizenship.

And you guys are thinking way too little.

A. I'm not worrying about anything, I don't have half-Thai children nor am I half-Thai myself.

B. No one has ever said some half-farang quasi-half Thai is going to be stripped of his quasi-real Thai citizenship (to my knowledge that's never happened except for the tribes up north for whom nobody here seem to worry or fret about much...)

C. Isn't this a Thai based discussion board? What are we supposed to be talking about if not Thailand, its culture, its society and the values and principles it's based on?

P.S. Ignore point "C", I forgot for a moment that we all are supposed to join the smiling blind Thai apologist brigade...

Correct - I was assuming that the poster was a man. PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies.

Not correct, PR as a prerequisite for citizenship is not necessary for ladies married to Thai men.

The intent of the law being, of course, not that of discriminating in favor of foreign women but that of discriminating in favor of Thai Men.

Discrimination being the key word. After all, this is a 3rd world military junta country we are talking about...

They are only as "smart" as what they are allowed to get away with from an apathetic and uneducated population. This will change for the better... I hope.

They are only as "smart" as what WE allow them to.

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

One should never "assume" anything, especially when dealing with foreign matters. (As we say in the army, "assume" makes an "ass" of "u" and "me")

Just because the rules are one way back home, doesn't mean every other country in the world follows the same rules.

But isn't it funny how the laws, regulations, their interpretation and their application/enforcement (especially those dealing with the most important matters like, for example, the basic human rights) are consistently identical or very similar across the Western countries and, equally, across 3rd world military junta/banana republic countires..?

Obviously, Thailand has it's own set of rules regarding citizenship. However, I hardly doubt they are going to fill massage parlours with female undercover policewoman, hoping to catch a couple of luk kreungs so they can deport them.

Sure, but they have "covered their asses" and established the umpteenth provision to make themselves able to pretty much do as they please.

So, if you want to keep your acquired Thai citizenship (you know, the one identified by the different starting number on your "Thai" ID...) you better keep (as always in Thailand) your head down and don't make an annoyance of yourself for those with any real power...

The Kingdom obviously had reason to make these regulations, and at the time, they probably did it with the best intentions of the Kingdom in mind.

Those reasons are called XENOPHOBIA, RACISM and SEX BASED DISCRIMINATION.

I may be wrong here (I probably am), but the way I read it this only applies to a situation where a person is born to two foreign parents and has acquired Thai nationality (as it says) "by reason of his having been born within the Thai Kingdom of an alien father". I don't think it applies to situations where you have acquired Thai nationality by being "A person born of a father or a mother of Thai nationality, whether within or outside the Thai Kingdom".

I believe the quoted sections refers to chapter 1 section 7 about acquisition of Thai nationality, which also seems to imply that you can (at least in theory) under certain circumstances acquire Thai nationality by being born in Thailand, even if you are born to two foreign parents. I have no idea what circumstances that might be though.

Sophon

I may be wrong as well, but wasn't in the past Thai citizenship restricted to those born to a Thai father and a foreign mother (and denied to those with a Thai mother and a foreign mother, along with land ownership rights etc)?

Acquiring Thai citizenship by being born within Thailand was the only option available to those kids with the "wrong" Thai parent and that would explain this law (since if it would apply to those born to two foreign parents it wouldn't make sense to talk about the "alien father", the law would have said the "alien parents"). Of course this is Thailand we are talking about and Thais have written this law so it may well be possible, normal and (Thai) logic...

especially when the posts come from people who (instead of washing) wiped their butts after sh*tting till they learned some hygiene in Asia.

The many viral and other diseases coming from Asia and Africa are due to the abysmal hygienic conditions prevalent there.

Living in too close contact with others and in too great numbers, living in too close contact with animals, food preparation, food conservation, chemical contaminations, pollution etc etc etc

Most of it is due to deep ignorance, poor laws and even worse enforcement.

Really much to learn about hygiene in Asia...

The Jappers call us white Westerners 'butterstinkers'.

They must be referring only to SOME "white Westerners" since they themselves (the Japs) have only very recently learned to use bidets from the Italians (the first ones imported were from Italian stylish furnitures makers, now they produce their own ELECTRONIC ones!)

BTW, in Italy bidets are much more than "quite common", they are as common as toilet bowls... Despite bidet being a French word, bidet are more used in Spain, Greece and Portugal (and quite common in some Latin American countries) than in France (which is still far ahead of any one of the rest of the European countries anyway).

As for long stayers, the question is always going to be a tough one especially in the case of families. There are always going to be people who don't make the cut. The Thai authorities have set a basic bar - 40K per month/per family . No doubt that bar is higher than what they typical Thai family may earn, especially in rural areas, but at the same time, frankly the risk to the Thai government is higher as well in terms of prenting sham marriages for the purpose of staying, the RTG needs to ensure that the person is in a position to support themselves (otherwise they would become a burden to soceity in some way).

Like the others, I'm impatiently waiting to see a list of those ways in which foreigners (particularly the Westerners and the other rich Asians since for neighbouring countries' migrant workers different sets of rules and circumstances apply) become a burden to a 3rd world country which provides its own citizen with very few and very poor welfare state type of benefits and ZERO, NONE, ZILCH, NOWT, NOTHING, ZIP to visiting foreigners...

What are visa runners of any kind and any other not-working/investing types of "long stayers" entitled to or may get entitled to in case of need in Thailand?

Free health care?

Free housing?

Free schooling for their foreign children?

Unemployment benefits?

Social security checks if permanently disabled?

Social security checks if too old/unable to work?

We are all ears.

ALL OFF topic ..... but I will give one last reply ... The average Yank doesn't manage to do what I have done any more than the average Thai does

The point wasn't moving to a foreign country in one's 30s and living there without working (your BF hasn't done that, for example). I thought the point you were trying to make was being able to "buy and sell twice" one another. The average "Yank" CAN do that to the average Thai, the average Thai CANNOT do that to the average "Yank".

And if all you are saying now is that the average American isn't able to move to Thailand in his/her 30s and living there without working well, while being true, it still fails to address the fact that the average American has INFINITELY more chances to be able to achieve it than the average Thai has.

I have no reason to think that I would be any less successful at beating the norm in Thailand than I was in the USA ....

See what I was saying about blind daydreamers...

nor do I have any trouble with the way life actually is!

And why should you with the way YOUR life actually is (living in Kamala Beach without having to work)..?

...or are you speaking for the average Thai and its life?

Again ... I admire the guys that manage PR and even more so citizenship in Thailand .... one helluva great accomplishment!

<<and your degree <1st> doesn't have anything on me >>

It does nothing on blind daydreamers...

Great post, Samran!!!

Great argument-less patting on the back, grtaylor!!!

nope not blind ... and not a daydreamer ......

Read USA socio-economic statistics I managed to move here in my 30's and haven't worked

And what do you think my point was?

You managed to move there in your 30s and you haven't worked BECAUSE YOU ARE FROM THE USA AND NOT FROM THAILAND.

in fact haven't worked since my mid-30's even in the USA. <I will be working at some point this year ... between the exchange rate and too much down time I should do SOMETHING

My Thai partner read BF could buy and sell me twice His family could do the same with me and my family twice as well

MOST Westerners would be able to "buy and sell twice" the average Thai while your BF is one of the VERY FEW Thais who could "buy and sell twice" the average Westerner.

You say you aren't blind nor a daydreamer so what's you problem understanding this very simple point proven by those Thai and US socio-economics statistics?

Remember ... I actually LIVE here .. speak read and write the language But I do enjoy being 'schooled' by folks that don't

Read my past posts, I managed to move there in my 20s, I lived there for 4 years and the Thai I picked up there is almost as good as the English I picked up living in the US.

I have not been working in the USA (I have part-timed for a while just to socialize and because it was fun), I have not been working in Thailand and I am not working now in Italy (studying for my second degree).

BTW, the fact that I can read and understand socio-economic stats and that my first degree is in Social Sciences may actually put me in a better position to "school" about Thai society than many others here who, while denying and condemning it, are in fact trying to do it all the same...

a guy comes forward and posts how he managed to get Thai citizenship. Not an easy thing admittedly, but he has done so in a way which gives many people here some hope that they do could eventually find themselves in that position. He's basically shed some light on a process which up until now has been a opaque. A good deed really.

All I did was "shedding some light" myself on the odds of being able to replicate the OP's accomplishment.

Then I complained on the unfairness of it all and on the only possible solution I see. Skip the second part, if you want, and correct the first, if you can...

But keep this thread on topic, and find it in your heart to actually, perhaps...maybe...possibly, congradulate this person.

Besides my replies to jdinasia's off topic comments (which I see you are NOT addressing...) I can't see how my first post could be meant as off topic.

Anyway, yes, congrats to the OP. Thai citizenship isn't something I would want but easy PR definitely is and I am VERY pissed off at not having the right to get it as a spouse of a Thai national and a possible future father of Thai citizens.

Aren't you glad you ARE NOT from Thailand?

Nope

Very commonly for blind daydreamers, you clearly don't understand the implications of being from Thailand.

It means, khun jdinasia, that you would MOST PROBABLY (read Thai socio-economic statistics) NOT BE enjoying yourself in Kamala Beach...

Aren't you glad you are in Italy? <I am!>

Aren't you glad you ARE NOT from Thailand? <I wish you were!>

A lot of folks here getting over-excited over NOTHING...

You are looking at a process ("lottery" would be a far more adequate term) which overall lasts more than 10 years (and during which you can't simply live but HAVE TO WORK, even if you don't want/have to, in a 3rd world country).

Just ONE of the pre-requisite, the PR, has an annual limit of 100 PRs per nationality (limit which, AFAIK, is not even usually reached. And not for lack of applications).

The icing on the cake is the difference in treatment between male and female applicants...

You sure you would want to swear your loyalty to such a country?

My wife has got Italian "PR" just marrying me (no work/taxes/years of residence etc required) and has been able to ask for citizenship after 6 months of marriage (if living in Italy, 2 years if living abroad).

The process lasts 1.5/2 years, has cost us 2 trips to the provincial police station and administrative court and a total of € 600 (mostly spent for the Thai side of it, which is also where we have experienced the most of the hassles like the Thai embassy not knowing/wanting to do its duties and forcing my wife to personally go back to Thailand to get some paperwork). We have just had the visit from the local police verifying the situation described in the application.

The only real requisite is having a clean criminal record (no work/taxes/years of residence etc required, even the criminal record doesn't have to be "spotless", just nothing major in it) and there are no sex-based and nationality-based discriminations...

I will repeat here what I usually write when comparing our GFs'/BFs'/spouses' homecountry with our own: the only effective way to deal with the problems foreigners have in our home countries and that we have in foreign countries is RECIPROCATING the s.hit we get anywhere in the world outside of our tiny, fragile Western bubble of civilization. And if that means kicking out of my home country my Thai wife because we don't have a combined monthly income of 6/7 times the average Italian wage (as Thailand does), so be it.

P.S. Forgot to add, in Italian service stations you can clean your windscreen and check your tyres pressure yourself for free, if you fill your tank up at a serviced pump they will usually clean your windscreen for you and no tip is expected nor usually given.

Well, plenty of people are talking about gasoline prices in dollars, pounds, and Baht in terms of varying quantitites of different grades of gasoline, and in different countries. Great, now it's crystal clear.

You are right, for example I didn't add prices in Baht. I didn't simply because I don't know what exchange rate I should use...

Anyway, at € 1 = THB 46.5:

1 liter of Diesel is THB 53.48

1 US gallon of Diesel is THB 202.14

1 liter of Benzina (gasoline/petrol) is THB 62.78

1 US gallon of Benzina (gasoline/petrol) is THB 237.29

BTW, in Italy (and AFAIK in all of the Western Europe) you don't have anymore benzina with different grades of octane, just "green" unleaded.

Different fuel companies offer various premium grades of Benzina and Diesel (ie "EcoPower", "EcoDiesel" etc) which they call differently one company from the other.

Given, I've never completely drained the gas tanks of these particular vehicles to see if that would be the result, but the tank specs and pump prices are accurate. In summary, it's only a slight difference, only $6 if you look at it at the "extreme" end forex wise. Will leave it to TV'ers to nitpick as to what the value of full service gas stations here are vs. "better" quality gasoline is in the US, and how compares to other places in the world, etc.

Differences anywhere in the world are made up almost entirely of taxes.

You get countries with little or no taxation (i.e. the USA and Thailand) with similar prices, countries with heavy taxation (ie Western Europe) and countries which even subsidize the fuel (ie. Iran and Venezuela. Thailand has been in this camp in the very recent past).

As for the service, in Italy in the same filling station you can stop your car at serviced pumps or self-service pumps and pay accordingly. The majority of the people stop at the self-service pumps...

If Thailand offered the same and the savings were comparable I bet the situation would be the same as in the West. It doesn't because the "serf" who fills your tank costs next to "nothing". Upcountry they can get as low as 1500 Baht/month. Heck, in the bigger stations they even "employ" people to wave company flags..!

BTW, if offered the option in LOS I would pay slightly more to use self-service pumps instead of the serviced ones.

I wouldn't have to wait for them even if they were just lazying around and I would have the peace of mind of knowing they hadn't spilled the fuel on the body of the car, they hadn't left the plug loose and above all that they weren't trying one of the their many scams filling my car.

As always and everywhere, you get what you pay for...