drummer

Let's put it in simple terms y'all can understand...It's left to innocent voters like me to figure out who's telling the truth. Do I believe a group of 256 Vietnam veterans who say Kerry's a liar, or do I believe John Kerry and Jim Rassman, who say 256 Vietnam veterans are liars? Gee, lemme think about it for a sec.

You still outa line, mate. You really might want to consider going back to college to take a class in logic. They may offer the class in some high schools closer to you, too. There are more logical errors, in the classical sense, in that statement, than I care to go into. Then, of course, there are the factual errors...

Anyway, for my money, I'd have a look at the original documents. No need for anyone to take anyone's word.

Lets see.... Says he treated Kerry, documents say ... otherwise!

Lets see ... Says there was no enemy that day .... documents say ... otherwise! In fact, *he* said otherwise, as early as 2 months ago, and before, when he campaigned for Kerry, and before, when he recieved a Bronze Star for the same day, and before, when in his own write ups for that day.

So, Bon Mee, do you think the Washington Post is liberal media? (They say that these guys are liars, after looking at the documents) Just curious.

No doubt.

http://www.instapundit.com/

This site also supports the Swiftboat Veterans For Truth, (Which even Bill O'Rielly of Fox News has called "out of bounds" and the Rev. Sun Yung Moon's (a biiig Bush contributor and cult leader) newspaper paper the Washington Post reported as boldface liars.

hOWEVER, this site says

"MICKEY KAUS has much more on the SwiftVets story, and reports: "Respectable big-time journalist friends who met with the anti-Kerry vets recently found them a lot more credible than expected.", and, in support of the group, wait for it, "Indeed. But that "inconveniently messy issue of truth" is getting harder to avoid."

A few problems with the Swiftboat Vets...

(1) vet says he treated Kerry in Vietnam for one of his Purple Heart injuries. He says Kerry injured himself to try to get out of Vietnam.

*PROBLEM*: His name isn't on the records as the Dr. who treated Kerry, someone else's is. OH- he wasn't actually in Vietnam when Kerry was either.

(2) Kerry's immediate CO says Kerry's Bronze Star was undeserved, that despite Kerry's claims, there was no enemy fire that day.

*PROBLEM*: *HE* wrote the recomendation for Kerry. His own records show that "all 5 swiftboats were under" small arms and automatic fire. OH- he recieved a Bronz Star HIMSELF that same day for assisting another swiftboat that hit a mine. Also, he has previously campaigned for Kerry.

But yes, Bon Mee, no doubt they are "much more credible than you'd expect." You know, for liars. Cripes! even FOX news is more fair and balanced!

THEY KNOW IT WHEN THEY SEE IT:

Michael Moore's contentious film Fahrenheit 9/11 has opened in Poland, with some film critics likening it to totalitarian propaganda.

Gazeta Wyborcza reviewer Jacek Szczerba called the film a "foul pamphlet".

He said it was too biased to be called a documentary and was similar to Nazi propaganda director Leni Riefenstahl. . . .

"In criticising Moore, I have to admit that he has certain abilities - Leni Riefenstahl had them too," Mr Szczerba said in his review.

Ouch. Ann Althouse observes:

It is heartening to see that exposure to propaganda breeds resistance to it.

There are many huge differences between Moore and Leni Riefenstahl, though. Quite aside from the fact that she was working in support of Hitler and Moore is working against Bush (and Bush is no Hitler, despite some noise to the contrary), Riefenstahl would have snorted at the lack of artistry in Moore's work.

No doubt.

http://www.instapundit.com/

Wheres the part when they say that Hitler actually wrote the film? I mean, you can say what you like, but "lack of artistry"? That just shoots your credibility. But to summarize .... "Moore is a wannabe Nazi?" *chuckle*

Incidentally, I happened to talk to a couple of Poles last night who liked the film, and likened Bush to a totalitarian. (No joke- I really did!) I guess that makes 3 out of every 4 Poles that like the film. So there! "stttttpht!" (They say that 67% of stastics are made up on the spot)

Actually, its no surprise that the squeeze they are putting on LoS isn't limited to SE Asia.

And Linda Ronstadt is a washed-up, bloated old gas-bag. Just another "celebrity" with an opinion...

Thats right, Bon Mee .... You don't like what a person is saying so you call them names. Extremely productive. You keep turning up aces, mate.

I actually rather suspect you and I agree on a number of issues. Far more than you'd think. But I do think you have your head in the sand. Farenheit 9/11 was a pro-military, anti-war documentary. I agree- the military is an invaluable necesity. But I can't agree with enforcing our nations interests abroad with "constabulary" action.

Logically, either you do agree with those policies, and won't admit it, or you have your head in the sand.

Just looked around the Power Hour ....

I'll bet you any amount of bhat that thing is absolutely fabricated. They have pictures of the "Entry Hole" and the "Exit hole" ...

(1) its a plane crash, not a gunshot. The plane did not come back out.

(2) Its the same **** hole! Same no parking sign, same grafiti, same burn marks...

I doubt thats even The Pentagon. Prolly some wharehouse in France or something.

http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/entry_hole.htm

http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/exit_hole.htm

Also, look at

http://www.thepowerhour.com/911_analysis/a...aft-missles.htm

.... You may notice that while the page *says* reuters, there is no link to the article itself, and no mention of the year. BTW. This post was initially published in the Wall St. Journal. Can't find it? Look harder.

And check out the site they got their information from. Its worth a laugh. Or a cry.

I mean- I wouldn't be surprised if the guys knew about it. Wouldn't be the first time we've let something bad happen to achieve goals. They've even stated that something like that would be just what they needed. But this is just silly. You can't believe something just because someone says it- whether its George Bush or Dave VonKliest.

Dunno- I think alot of you scare me more than W. I have to laff at all of you yanks with conspiracy theories.

Anyways I think we are way off topic here... I think everyone will agree that Moore's picture should be shown and let yourself decide if its rubbish or not. What more has to be said????

Everyone fails to realize that W haters aren't going to change the minds of W lovers and visa/versa!

Some of 'em are pretty funny, I'll give ya that (That we didn't land on the moon is my all time favorite, though)

I'd be curious to have them explain what actually happened to the plane and the people, and why they didn't actually fly it into the Pentagon. Its not like it couldn't withstand it, and its not like they'd be stupid enough to make only a 16 foot hole in the pentagon, if they were planning something like that. There do seem to be a lot of unanswered questions about that particular theory. re: scale ... I'd have to look it up, but I'm pretty darned sure that the Pentagon is a really, really sturdy, really really big building. The plane made a big hole in the big building. Makes sense to me. Re: detonating the towers... I've seen footage of at least a dozen demolitions, and they all collapse from one side to the other. The Towers seemed to fall in on itself... I guess I'd have to look at the movie to see what I think, though.

But what part of my 'conspiracy' post do you disagree with? I'm not much on those kinds of things, but IMHO it is not at all inconvievable. You don't *seriously* think that no one would ever do something that awful would you?

And I highly recommend reading www.newamericancentury.org -don't just peruse the highlights- those make them sound like standard Reaganites. Read farther in. These guys believe "Might Makes Right." I wouldn't put mugging their own grandma past 'em.

People with guns kill people.

The NRA use to be a fine institution for firearm safety and education, now it is a lobbying group for the irreponsible firearm manufacturers and a rallying point for idiot right-wing fanatics who are so freaking insecure that they associate their imagined masculinity with gun ownership.

People with knifes kill people too. People, in fact, have been killing people for a very, very long time. I base my statistics on crime rates across different cultures. Canada, it has already been pointed out, has less crime and more guns. Switzerland has more guns than people and much less crime.

Therefore, logically, one is compelled to accept that guns don't cause crime. Thats my rationale. I don't see any way to avoid those stats.

My point was Michael Moore brought up these same facts in Bowling for Columbine - explictly making the point the the presence of guns doesn't, by itself, cause criminal behavior.

As for my way of thinking, I am a bit of a social libretarian. I'm not much on banning behaviour that isn't harmful, and most gun owners never shoot anyone with their guns. Why is crime higher in the States than elsewhere? Michael Moore had a very interesting idea in BfC. Education almost certainly plays a part. It certainly reduces gun accidents (another big anti-gun topic)

If you can reasonably prove to me that guns create criminals I'll change my mind. Otherwise, I support associated, mandatory gun education and licensing programs.

(BTW- I have never owned or fired a gun. I don't feel I need one.)

Re: NRA ... I don't really know a whole lot about 'em. What I do know indicates that your dscription may not be far off base- They strongly advocate some rather irresponsible stuff)

Cheers

Machiavelli:

"I have never seen a people so armed and so free as the Swiss."

An Irishman, and Englishman and a Scot walk into a bar and order a pint of Guiness. They are all about to drink up when a fly lands in each of their beers.

The Englishman looks at the fly squirming in the head of his beer, pushes it away and orders a replacement.

The Scot looks at the fly, fishes it out and starts drinking.

The Irishman grabs the fly by the wings and starts shouting "Spit it out! Spit it out ya bastard!"

Why can't English and Irish play chess together?

The English can't tell the bishop from the queen.

With that, I am entering into the witness protection program.

(in advance- sorry, just a joke. I poke fun of my self far more than I make fun of the English)

Reap up the post... its been discussed a bit already If you have any more questions, please ask

A man walks into the Drs office with a banana up his nose and a carrot in his ear. He says "Dr. I really haven't been feeling well lately." "Well I can seee your problem already- You just haven't been eating properly!"

Next man walks into a Drs office completely convered in saran wrap. Dr. says "I can clearly see your nuts."

About America being an individualistic country to the extreme and that's bad, people tend to forget that America too has high taxes and tons of welfare and social services. 

About the conspiracy theory that it wasn't Islamic Terrorists that crashed into the WTC, that sort of nonsense destroys the debater's credibility.

Those people aren't forgetting- they're *complaining* about it.

re: conspiracy theory. I was a bit, surprised, at that one, too- but Henry Kissinger once said "Just because you are paranoid, doesn't mean they aren't out to get you."

personally, I really don't know if Bush + Co. had anything to do with it. I highly doubt they had anything to do with the planning, but I would not be surprised if they just allowed it to happen. I reserve judgement for the following reasons...

(1) a 1998 letter to Bill Clinton, signed by Cheney, Rusfeld, et al says ... We need a "catastrophic and catalyzing event, like a new Pearl Harbor" to advance out agenda.

(2) Many, many examples of just such sacrifices include

(a) allowing cruise ships to sail in German U Boat waters. This led to the sinking of the Lusitania and America's entrance into the European side of WW2

( sinking our own ship to enter the Spanish American War

( C.) some reports indicate that Pearl Harbor was anticipated

(d) The Iran-Contra affair, trading arms to the Iranians to keep the hostages to secure the election for Regean

(3) The extroidinary amount of financial gain made by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et al from said event.

(4) The extroidinary amount of political gain for by Bush, et al from said event.

(5) The neocon track record, including (2d), Grenada, Panama, Iraq 1+2, etc. + their own statements.

(6) 17 countries giving us sometimes very specific warnings abuot said event.

(7) We gave OURSELVES warning about said event (FBI agents in Minnesota warned about guys with torror connections taking flight school, the head office told them to stand down)

Motive, opportunity, past history. Call me a nut, (everyone else does! ) but it seems plausible, at least. Even if highly circumstantial. Persoanlly, I think the guys a sunnofabush and I really wouldn't put it past him- even less Cheney.

Organic: That is a very astute observation. The studies I learned about were definitely about college students. (This is why I generally don't put much stock into sociology )

Gohonzon: I would think so. For my part I maintain a high level of respect for humanity and hope that things can, have, will, and are getting better. I just feel its gonna take a very long time and be a difficult process with many setbacks. I guess you could say I believe in the process of slowly reaching enlightenment for society. Call me an optimist, though ...

Indeed Great practical info

So many things get improved when peope can actually move around the city. Aside from air pollution, I'd wager that business would see a benefit from a good cheap transit system. You're gonna get better workers because the employee pool is gonna be a lot larger, too.

Plus the cost of dealing with traffic accidents, police not being about to get around as easily to deal with emergencies, etc.

Besides

1 (from 100% ridership) * 10 THB = 10

.3 (from 30% ridership) * 20 THB = 6

10 is more than 6.

Well something we can finally agree on with "the fearless leader"

Yup. On the other hand, think of 100 monkeys with typewriters.... It was bound to happen sooner or later...

It is a very difficult question as to how to go about it, though. How do you go about seperating the dangerous puritanical sects, like Wahabiism, from the benign puritanical sects, like the Omish?

I would start with the hand guns and the gun shows. The NRA is a sick and twisted organization. They are gun pimps. As are the republicans.

See- thats the big problem I had with Bowling for Columbine. Moore makes a good argument that guns don't kill people, people kill people. Then he goes and gets Kmart to stop selling bullets!

<deleted>???

The root cause has nothing to do with guns. It has to do with education- both in knowing what the gun does and how it works, and also in knowing enough to not be paranoid.

That's right EH! We need a really BIG government to raise our taxes to like 60% so that we can get sh1t medical care for free. He wants Socialism.

Thats on the level as the anti-american post earlier.

That is unfair because you are comparing apples and oranges to get an unfavorable comparison.

(To use Bush Lingo)

You see, some people on this forum care about the high crime rate in the US. Americans should be able to walk down the street without fear of getting mugged.

People are saying that crime is a big issue in this race, and they are saying that Boon Mee's are unamerican.

You miss the point entirely in your anti-Moore blindness. Your farther off that the guy talking about Hitler. At least he was on the same subject!

re: shit medical care. Many very large US Businesses are now (as of the last couple of years) *advocating* a government health package. They do this because they realize that the premiums they pay are consting them more than extra taxes they would pay if there was a socialized healch care system. Thus, their taxes go up, but their net income go up too. It is in their selfish best interest to have socialized healthcare.

Thats not "from each according to their abilities, to each according to their needs." Thats running the government as a business.

Of course, I haven't even started with the cost of care, the insured paying the uninsured, the drop in disease among covered citizens... Incidentally, the US already has a larger public health system that England or Canada- the Veterans Administration.

I guess your post makes you

(1) pro crime

(2) anti business

(3) pro disease

(4) anti military

(5) anti guns

Way to go, chief. All Aces.

Honestly I could care less who wins, all politicians are the same, not a honest one in the lot.

I just get a nagging feeling we'll be seeing another 4 yrs! I'd like to see what he might do with no re-election process hanging over his head. (might be interesting to say the least)

Interesting? How about morbid! How about my earlier post that said their plan was to invade all of the Middle East starting with Iraq? That is exactly what you can expect if he wins again. First Iran, then Syria. They've alerady used 26.2 million to restart the draft board. You are starting to sound like a Naderite!

Bush has a track record of lying, cheating, stealing, pushing through dangerous legislation that is in no way, shape or form in the US's interests.

Kerry, at least, has a track record of doing what he thinks best. I say this because the League of Environmental Voters give his the highest rating out of any Senator. This indicates to me that, at least, he is making his own decisions.

Even if they were the same, what would Kerry do - Invade Mexico for the tomatoes?

Nah, we all think the Yale graduate (ooooooooooooooH!) and Texan think tank is a raving genius, who just can't express his great ideas coherently yet (without an autocue written by his puppetmasters), but give "the lad" another 4 years to prove himself, he'll be quoting Einstein and proving himself a master rocket scientist (as opposed to a master rocket launcher). 

Don't let the Texas drawl fool you. He's a wolf in sheeps clothing. Check out his test scores. You'll find consistently low grammar scores, but consistently high math and history. Even at Andover, where he transferred from Midland's public education system. He was also near the top of his class in pilot training. He was reportedly responsible for Bush Sr. beating Dukakis, and he was minimally involved in the '92 loss to Clinton. He's a seriously capable behind the scenes player who knows how to get things done.

He's smart enough, he's just evil. NOTHING he has done is in the US's interests. And britmaveric is right. Watch out for the sonoffabush.

Not gonna happen

Wait and see, some may think W is stupid, but the lad is a very shrewd politician and Kerry isnt much of a match for him. However guess well see 3 Nov.

Shrewd indeed. Indeed. The rest of his cabinet, too. Look at some of their plans.

More from the Project For A New American Century...

http://www.newamericancentury.org/Rebuildi...casDefenses.pdf

Page 26 (right hand column, left of the big quote) says:

"The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

It also says the US needs to be able to

*"Fight and decisively win multiple, simultaneous theater wars"

*"Perform the constabulary duties associated with shaping the security environment in critical regions"

constubalary? That does not mean "World Policing" so much as enforcing.

" The Project for a New American Century was formed with a number of specific purposes in mind. The first, and foremost, was to fundamentally reorganize the foreign policy standards of the United States, to change forever the way America deals with the world. The first step in doing this, according to PNAC, was to attack, invade and take over the nation of Iraq. This plan was codified in a scolding letter sent to President Clinton in 1998 which chastised him for not rolling tanks on Baghdad. The next step in the process, according to PNAC, was to invade and take out friendly and unfriendly regimes alike in the Middle East, thus ?Westernizing? the region through warfare and bringing our values to them."

( http://www.truthout.org/docs_03/091503A.shtml )

These guys are not on the level. These guys are looking for an empire. "Diplomacy by force." They advocate state capitalism. Sound familiar?

My question- how can I find this stuff- published on their own website, signed by the VP Cheney, Sect. Defense Rumsfeld, etc etc, and NBC, CBS, FOX, ABC, CNN can't? What the he!! is going on?

I've been unsuccessfully looking for the article from Vanity Fair relating to Bush's company, Arbusto, linked to the Laden family. Does anyone know where I could find it?

Bush is linked to much scarier people than the bin Ladens. Check out "Fortunate Son" by J.H. Hatfield. While some may scoff b/c he was implicated in a felony, the man had decades of experience as a reporter in Texas and the entire book is thouroughly referenced.

heres is the article.... (googled www.vanityfair + bush + bin laden)

http://www.911truth.org/readingroom/whole_...?article_id=251

I bought my DVD copy from a vendor in Sala Daeng. While I agree that some of Moore's statements should be substantiated better, most of what he writes in Stupid White Men is followed up by verifiable sources. So, true, while his research is not perfect and far from academically sound, it is definitely not a load of crap. For that, tune into the "fair and balanced" rantings of Fox News or some of the regularly featured conservative authors such as Ann Coulter.

And oh yeah, Boon Mee, I'm American and the last I checked that means I and others have a right to dissent, which definitely does not make me a communist. Views along the lines of your own and others who have a problem with opposition seem to be more in tune with communists.

Anyone who doesn't think there should be debate on a topic is an extremist. These people should be relagated to the skirts of society that they actually occupy. The ONLY way to have a fair, effective government is to have a free and open debate. Cause you never know- maybe, just maybe, someone is smarter than you are.

P.S. anyone seen "Outfoxed" yet? I hear its in some theaters now, although its already made at least 100K USD from purely internet distribution.

Over 1,000 American's died from 9/11 and over 10,000 died all around the world due to his timely actions against war on terror. More to come when he get re-elected.

When Thaksin killed 1000 in south and drug lords, what a human rights record he got from west?

These films are useless. US Govt have killed enough people in the history of mankind, more than any other terrorist organization or any other govt.

Vietnam, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Middle east and add all other figures..Hitlar and BinLaden looks like kids compared to this record.

All those killings been justified as, precision guided killings with a good intention of protecting all of us against terror.

If anyone try to do movies about each an every incident, the number of days will not be enough to watch them.

I do not think these movies have any meaning other than a personal attack on Bush.

If anyone quote this and reply, please quote all and do not quote part of this and jump saying i am anti-American.

Unfair. Entirely unfair.

(1) Hitler (with an 'e') was one person. You are comparing 1 person with an entire nation.

(1a) You are saying that an entire nation is as bad as Hitler? You say "The US Govt. killed... but not Hitler killed... Please, match your catagories.

(1b) I will bet that the numbers of people killed by Germany, for example, in the last hundred years, are a lot higher than that by America. (not entirely sure, though)

(2) The english bombing of Drezden killed more people.

(3) The Romans participated in active genocide on numerous occaisions, as did many, many other nations through history. At least we gave the Native Americans reservations! That itself is better than a great many. (the janjaweed, for example) The Native Americans tried the same. Read up on the "Ghost Dance" (they just weren't very effective, b/c only 1% of their population was left)

(4) If you really want to get exact, try adjusting the numbers to the world population at the time.

You, sir, are indeed anti-American. I come to that conclusion because you do not apply the same standards to America as to anyone else.

We have a great antion that has a heck of a lot of high points. Perfect, no. Could a lot of things be improved? Most certainly-starting with the Bushes. (count up the number of iffy military actions by the bushs/regan and compare them to the entire history of the US)

Michael Moore is blessed with a great talent for filmaking and mediocre talent for propaganda.

If he really wanted to make a strong movie, he would have talked about

(1) Bush Sr. giving FUNDRAISING SPEECHES for Rev SUN YUNG MOON. and the later donating over a million USD to the former. This is a guy who says "Americans who value their privacy and extreme individualism are foolish people."

(2) back door contributions. If you watched the movie, you would not assume that Bush was ding anything but looking out for his business partner. Its a lot cloudier than that. Right after Sr. won the VP in 1980, Jr's company, Arbusto Energy, was valued at about $360K USD. He was able to get a large Panamanian company (can't remember the name just yet) to pay 10 million USD for 10% share in the company. lets see... 360K x .10 = 36K = .00036x1,000,000USD More than a little fishy. (only one example .... He managed to procure 46+ million USD)

(3) Went into detail about his insider trading.

(4) Went into detail about his BCCI contacts. (Mostly through Harken, but not only) These are people who had a long track record buy buying politicians, lying cheating, stealing.

(5) portrayed Bush jr. as the brilliant politician that he is. The guy has a photographic memory and is an extremely effective propagandist. HE is the one that made the Willie Horton ads that sealed the '88 race for his dad. Same people made the slanderous ads about McCain's "black baby" and the "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" That even FOX news is saying is out of bounds. James A. Baker paid for the darned thing!

(6) protrayed him not as a country bumpkin, an image he himself actively encourages, but as the slimy elitist that he is. His Texas ranch was built specifically for the election.

(7) mentioned that Bush's grandad, Sen. Prescott Bush, and great granddad, George Herbet Walker, sold Nazi war bonds in America, even after Pearl Harbor. Some of these went directly to the nazi war effort.

(8) honest to god- wants to legalize dumping of low level plutonium waste in landfills

(9) The prescription drug bill specifically prohibits negotiating volume based discounts. Ford gets a cheaper price for steel because it buys in volume. This is NOT running the government like a business. This is running the government for businesses.

Among many, many others. Bush is an extremely savy politician that doesn't give a flying fock about America or its interests. He is not fiscally conservative like Republicans are (and as I am) His policies are atrocius to any thinking person. They are a corporate giveaway to his "strong supporters"

Check out http://www.newamericancentury.org/ .... Its a think tank founded by Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, et al. Actually read what they propose. Think state capitalism, "Diplomacy by Force", secrecy, and greatly expanding the FBI/CIAs ability...

Just to make clear, I consider myself in the center in a lot of ways. But I am utterly ashamed, appalled and angered that a *criminal* like that can represent me in the world.