Britain could still reverse Brexit, former minister Heseltine says

[Laughing Gravy]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Do you understand representative democracy?

I didn't realize you had two names, as I was replying to another poster. But yes I do, even if I didn't have a Grammar schooling, just a plain old comprehensive one.

Edited September 7, 2017 by Laughing Gravy

[Grouse]

4 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

The was no pain before UK joined the EU…so why should there be after they leave….might be a period of adjustment…to extricate themselves from all the red tape and dumb laws.

What specific laws do feel are "dumb" and have been forced on us by the EU?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, Laughing Gravy said:

I didn't realize you had two names, as I was replying to another poster. But yes I do, even if I didn't have a Grammar schooling, just a plain old comprehensive one.

Sorry, I didn't realise it was a PM!

 

If you understand representative democracy, why do you keep banging on about MPs not necessarily reflecting the views of their, er, constituents?

[sandyf]

5 hours ago, pitrevie said:

 

You do realise we are still in the EU and the single market. Its going to be interesting to see what transpires when we leave.

 

 

Many seem oblivious to the fact that the volume of trade between the UK and the EU and vice versa has come about because of the single market. When the bureaucracy that was in place prior to the single market reappears, only the delusional can think that volume will be maintained.

 

The white van men will be furiously stocking up on cross channel merchandise as their time is rapidly running out.

[Laughing Gravy]

Just now, Grouse said:

Sorry, I didn't realise it was a PM!

 

If you understand representative democracy, why do you keep banging on about MPs not necessarily reflecting the views of their, er, constituents?

Actually I was referring more to the Peers in the House of Lords that I mentioned in name who really are not serving anyone, except themselves. If only MP's did reflect their constituents.

 

No it wasn't a PM. Maybe a bit over zealous with the first part of the reply.  

[baansgr]

Just now, Grouse said:

Do you understand representative democracy?

So why are some of the elected MPs not representing their constituents and totally ignoring them.

[sandyf]

4 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

The was no pain before UK joined the EU…

Is that selective memory or just not old enough.

In the 12 months prior to joining the EEC the UK declared a state of emergency twice, maybe not a pain to some but it certainly was to many.

It was also a condition of joining the EEC that the UK lifted the £50 currency restriction. That wasn't such a big deal as very few could afford to go abroad, the cheap Spanish holidays were yet to come.

[sandyf]

Brexit means brexit, well apart from the cracks.

 

Two of Theresa May’s most senior ministers have distanced themselves from her Brexit plans, it has been reported. 

Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary and Damian Green, the First Secretary of State, are both said to have expressed “reservations” about Ms May’s leaked immigration plans. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-immigration-theresa-may-leaked-plans-cabinet-ministers-amder-rudd-damian-green-a7933526.html

 

Theresa May will make a key concession over her new Brexit legislation in an attempt to kill off any chance of an embarrassing early Commons defeat at the hands of Conservative backbenchers, The Independent can reveal.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-news-theresa-may-uk-eu-withdrawal-bill-concession-time-scrutiny-mps-a7933321.html?S2ref=1532332

[baansgr]

Just now, sandyf said:

Is that selective memory or just not old enough.

In the 12 months prior to joining the EEC the UK declared a state of emergency twice, maybe not a pain to some but it certainly was to many.

It was also a condition of joining the EEC that the UK lifted the £50 currency restriction. That wasn't such a big deal as very few could afford to go abroad, the cheap Spanish holidays were yet to come.

And wasn't a state of emergency called at least twice more within the first few years of joining. A lot at that time can be accounted to the oil crisis.

[dundee48]

1 hour ago, pitrevie said:

No as I explained to LG I was asking a rhetorical question as like LG you appear to think that there cannot be any more referendums on the subject. So let me try and explain it to you. If you can have a second referendum then you can have a third and even a fourth. Do I support further referendums, the answer is no as I have said many times before, I do not agree with referendums it should be for Parliament to decide.

However LG appears to think that this referendum is the final referendum just because David Cameron said so. I have stated it so many times, no government can bind its successor governments to any course of action. So there is nothing stopping the next Parliament from holding another referendum or even this parliament from holding another referendum. Once again I will say the obvious I do not support another referendum or indeed any referendum but what is not in dispute is that there could indeed be further referendums should parliament decide.

For some reason LG thinks that if you say there could be further referendums then that must mean you support holding one.

 

Stop digging,please.

[pitrevie]

3 minutes ago, dundee48 said:

Stop digging,please.

Ah another one who refuses to answer so let me ask you the simple question.

In 1975 the UK held the first referendum on the EEC

IN 2016 the UK held the second referendum on the EU

Is it possible for the UK to hold another referendum on the same matter?

[Grouse]

5 hours ago, JHolmesJr said:

The was no pain before UK joined the EU…

So let them eat cake! ?

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, baansgr said:

So why are some of the elected MPs not representing their constituents and totally ignoring them.

Because that is not how our representative democracy works. MPs can vote in which ever way they think best for the general good. MPs can be voted out or deselected for ignoring the party whip, but they can ignore their constituents with impunity. Most MPs are against brexit.

[rockingrobin]

1 hour ago, baansgr said:

So why are some of the elected MPs not representing their constituents and totally ignoring them.

MPs are given a mandate from their constituents , but not a monopoly on views

[pitrevie]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Because that is not how our representative democracy works. MPs can vote in which ever way they think best for the general good. MPs can be voted out or deselected for ignoring the party whip, but they can ignore their constituents with impunity. Most MPs are against brexit.

Kate Hoey campaigned alongside Farage during  Brexit, her constituency voted overwhelmingly for Remain but she still got re=elected during the last general election. That was the story with many MPs, its the way our representative democracy works. Sad that so many Brexiters who complain about the EU and the way it works have so little idea how their own parliamentary system works 

[SheungWan]

3 hours ago, Grouse said:

Do you understand representative democracy?

With zero UKIP MPs they understand representative democracy only too well.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

MPs are given a mandate from their constituents , but not a monopoly on views

 

Very rarely are MPs voted in on force of personality. The overwhelming majority are elected because their electorate voted for a political party with a manifesto. Any MPs going against their party's manifesto on a major issue should put their choice to their electorate, otherwise they run the risk of being highly unrepresentative.

[rockingrobin]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Very rarely are MPs voted in on force of personality. The overwhelming majority are elected because their electorate voted for a political party with a manifesto. Any MPs going against their party's manifesto on a major issue should put their choice to their electorate, otherwise they run the risk of being highly unrepresentative.

MPs are there to represent everybody in there constituency , incuding those who did not vote for them. To put individual issues back to the electorate would result in minor vulnerable groups of society being disadvantaged and ignored.

Edited September 7, 2017 by rockingrobin

[Khun Han]

15 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

MPs are there to represent everybody in there constituency , incuding those who did not vote for them. To put individual issues back to the electorate would result in minor vulnerable groups of society being disadvantaged and ignored.

 

Of course MPs represent all their constituents. But they are almost invariably elected on a party manifesto. So if they go against a major feature of that manifesto, they should put themselves up for re-election on that issue. Otherwise they are defying the voters who elected them. Your attempt to bring vulnerable groups into this is twaddle. As if any sitting MP would ignore them! You are conflating the day-to-day job of a sitting MP with their duty to the people who voted for them. 

[SheungWan]

29 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Very rarely are MPs voted in on force of personality. The overwhelming majority are elected because their electorate voted for a political party with a manifesto. Any MPs going against their party's manifesto on a major issue should put their choice to their electorate, otherwise they run the risk of being highly unrepresentative.

Usual personal opinion masquerading as fact.

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

Usual personal opinion masquerading as fact.

 

That must be why MPs hardly ever retain their deposit when they choose to stand as an independent .

[notmyself]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

What specific laws do feel are "dumb" and have been forced on us by the EU?

 

Is the imposition of the Lisbon treaty not sufficient?

[vogie]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

What specific laws do feel are "dumb" and have been forced on us by the EU?

It is illegal to eat pet horses, but other types of horses are fine. 

[Khun Han]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

It is illegal to eat pet horses, but other types of horses are fine. 

 

Huh? Is that for real?

[notmyself]

Another rather large reason for voting to leave was how the bloc dealt, and is dealing with, supposed asylum seekers who are all too often economic migrants from outside the EU. Some of the younger members such as Poland, Czech republic and Slovenia remember what is was like to live under a theocracy (never mind Marxism) and they are unsurprisingly not keen on being told they HAVE to accept large numbers of the very same. They may have more truck with it if they saw that the EU was dealing with the problem but what they see, and even the most myopic see, is a bloc who easily have the resources to deal with it effectively but decides against it. So bad has it become with all this dithering that a number of aid groups have stopped rescuing those at sea with MSF being the latest.

 

This issue along with others mentioned in this thread are going to have an effect in various places at various times and this includes Brexit.

 

But to get solidly back on topic. Heseltine is, and always has been, a staunch corporate authoritarian dog who is so blind that he can't understand why anyone could not love the EU.... even in its present form. Unthinkable.

[vogie]

22 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Huh? Is that for real?

Yes for real, and children under 8 should be supervised when blowing balloons up, how much do these people get paid for making stupid rules up?

[notmyself]

49 minutes ago, vogie said:

It is illegal to eat pet horses, but other types of horses are fine. 

 

Dam n that is funny.

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/slaughter-poultry-livestock-and-rabbits-for-home-consumption

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

It is illegal to eat pet horses, but other types of horses are fine. 

 

46 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Huh? Is that for real?

While we are still talking about horses, there are 11 candidates standing for the leadership of UKIP at UKIP's party conference this month. One of the candidates, it is reported in the Aug 19 edition of The Economist is best known for claiming that a homosexual donkey 'tried to rape my horse'.

[Khun Han]

28 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes for real, and children under 8 should be supervised when blowing balloons up, how much do these people get paid for making stupid rules up?

 

How quaint. Were people actually paid to discuss this and put it into EU law?

[Khun Han]

15 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

 

While we are still talking about horses, there are 11 candidates standing for the leadership of UKIP at UKIP's party conference this month. One of the candidates, it is reported in the Aug 19 edition of The Economist is best known for claiming that a homosexual donkey 'tried to rape my horse'.

 

Are there any EU support schemes for sexually harrassed horses? Maybe he can put in a compo claim. Was the donkey from Eastern Europe? Was it residing in the UK legally?