The Thai Government Says I Must Go Away.

[Mid]

That's up to the family, but even if there was nobody, and the kids are headed to an orphanage, it doesn't change the fact that Andy has to get off his ass and stop making excuses.

your focused on ' Andy's ' ..............

I'm asking about the consequences to numerous Thai citizens ?

[cdnvic]

That's up to the family, but even if there was nobody, and the kids are headed to an orphanage, it doesn't change the fact that Andy has to get off his ass and stop making excuses.

your focused on ' Andy's ' ..............

I'm asking about the consequences to numerous Thai citizens ?

That's not the point of this topic, try starting a new one rather than trying to hijack this one.

[Robski]

That's up to the family, but even if there was nobody, and the kids are headed to an orphanage, it doesn't change the fact that Andy has to get off his ass and stop making excuses.

your focused on ' Andy's ' ..............

I'm asking about the consequences to numerous Thai citizens ?

Mid; the master of nebulous questions (to steal a phrase) and hijacker of many threads, why don't you answer your questions for us? Thanks.

[steveromagnino]

That's up to the family, but even if there was nobody, and the kids are headed to an orphanage, it doesn't change the fact that Andy has to get off his ass and stop making excuses.

your focused on ' Andy's ' ..............

I'm asking about the consequences to numerous Thai citizens ?

the family should get off their ass and stop making excuses and relying on some 'white knight' who in 17 years hasn't got legal.

[Mid]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread at all , the question relates to the OP's post as reference in said post numerous times .............

If I knew the answer I would not have asked the question !!

It does appear to be causing some discomfort to those who are trying to claim that it's not relevant however ...................

[Robski]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread at all , the question relates to the OP's post as reference in said post numerous times .............

If I knew the answer I would not have asked the question !!

It does appear to be causing some discomfort to those who are trying to claim that it's not relevant however ...................

So it's not rhetorical, you really don't know. I'm glad we cleared that up!

[Mid]

I'm not trying to hijack this thread at all , the question relates to the OP's post as reference in said post numerous times .............

If I knew the answer I would not have asked the question !!

It does appear to be causing some discomfort to those who are trying to claim that it's not relevant however ...................

So it's not rhetorical, you really don't know. I'm glad we cleared that up!

NO i don't know ,

nor do I know the point of your reply ???

[cdnvic]

It does appear to be causing some discomfort to those who are trying to claim that it's not relevant however

Trolls cause mild annoyance, not discomfort.

[Mid]

It does appear to be causing some discomfort to those who are trying to claim that it's not relevant however

Trolls cause mild annoyance, not discomfort.

and asking a question that is validly connected to the OP is trolling in what way ?

[Rickman]

The immigration officer in room 103 freaked out because of a mis-match in our perspectives. Her attitude seemed to be "I am a police officer, you must obey me." My attitude was "You're selling various kinds of visas, how much do they cost, which kind do I want to buy?" The price of the annual renewable spousal visa got too high, so I decided not to buy one. I remember her jumping up and screaming "THE RULES ARE THE SAME FOR EVERYONE!" and marching out of the room. Everyone was staring at her.

It's clear that even after 17 years in Thailand you have learnt very little about how to behave towards Officials here – the rule is whether you respect them or not, agree with them or not, you don’t let it show.

To incite an Immigration Officer to anger, to the point where she screams at you and walks out, indicates a very strange attitude from someone really serious about trying to stay in the Country.

Plus I have to say that your "Letter" to the Immigration Authorities will likely cause more irritation than sympathy for the same reason - you are putting all the blame on the Authorities and accepting none at all for your own lack of foresight and, whether you accept it or not, your contravention of the spirit of the Tourist Visa Regulations for the past 17 (17!) years.

Patrick

This is basically what I said in my previous post near the beginning of this thread. Glad people are now seeing what I saw about Andy. It's your fault Andy, go fix it for your son and the others you support or leave and shut up. The laws are there for a purpose. Ever wondered why Thailand was never colonised and changed its name from Siam to Thailand? THAI Land, it's theirs and they will bloody well do what they want with it. If they tell all farang to go away and never come back that is their right, it is their land, so get used to it and work with this in mind.

[Rickman]

On a more general note, may I suggest to everyone who intends to make Thailand their home for the forseeable future, that they learn the Thai language! By that, I mean learn to speak Thai well, learn to read/write Thai to a reasonable degree.

It irks me that I meet many 'farang' who have lived in LoS for years, (often 10 or 20 years+), and can still only speak one or two words of Thai. What sort of commitment to the country does that show?

Learn Thai, understand (not neccessarily agree with) the culture, and you stand a far better chance of integrating with the Thai community. Make Thai friends (who can help you out in time of need) etc.

It's not difficult . . . especially if you have 17 years to do it in!

Simon

Would you say that it is beneficial for every person on earth to learn English? Would you say that English is the international language? Would you say that all Thai should learn English? I would say yes to all of those. Given that then it is a Thai problem problem that they can't speak English to me, not my problem I can't speak Thai to a Thai in Thailand or Japanese to a Japanese in Thailand or Russian to a Russian in Thailand. Get my drift?

[dobbelinas]

It seems to me like AndyCanfield wasn't really asking for help, when posting this thread.

It was more of explaining his feelings, about what he's been through.

I think everybody here should take a step back, and try to see the whole picture.

Thailand does not give out Visas for humane reasons.

As stated earlier, even the help workers in the tsunami rescue, were threatened by deportation

unless they got their WP's !.

It is fairly obvious to anyone who's been here for a long time, that we foreigners

are not really welcome here.

People saying: "Andy, haven't you learned anything after all this time"

Is really sad to see.

I think Andy is more like a Thai than all of those negative commentors put together, why ?

He has plenty of children to take care of, and only does what has been absolutely

neccessary for him to stay,day by day, without thinking of the consequenses.

You can't be anymore Thai than that.

It doesn't matter how many years you stay here as a father to Thai children.

You will always be required to do these humiliating visits to the

immigration, feeling like a criminal.

That goes for all foreigners, parents or not.

I saw one commentator describing it as "seeing your parole officer",

spot on !

<snip>

Edited January 9, 2007 by Jai Dee
Comments about forum moderation deleted

[simon43]

Rickman - I fully agree that English is an international language and very useful for Thai people to learn. But this is Thailand where Thai is the national language. If you live in Thailand, then you learn to speak Thai! If you don't agree with this or are too lazy to learn the language, then you can't really moan if you have 'communication problems'. (Additionally, speaking/reading/writing Thai will gain you a lot of respect from Thais, and that could be very helpful if you find yourself in a sticky situation in the future...)

Simon

[papakapbaan]

[1] ATTEMPT TO PROVIDE PRACTICAL HELP FOR ANDY.

1) Do you have the Thai birth certificate of your child with your name on it?

If you have one: (and nothing else)

Actually what BKK said about your NON-O being "unlegitimatelly" issued refers to the fact the visa could never be extended for 1 year by their services.

Of course it is "right", to some extent, to consider the visa is illegitimate (just like it is right to call the child illegitimate...).

BUT. Andy, the vast majority of visas issued by Thai embassies around the world could surely be seen as illegimate on such basis: they wil never lead to annual extensions.

COUNTLESS examples, I can not be bothered here... (Just the NON-B based on work permit without minimum required salary, renewed every 3 months).

In your case, in other words, the visa is illegitimate only to the extend that you do not have child custody and so no Immigration office will ever extend it for 1 year.

(To make it clear for casual readers: an Immigration office inside of Thailand as opposed to an Embassy)

BUT. As far as I am aware.

- Embassies and consulates (including in SE Asia) are still issuing SINGLE entry NON-O in your case (which happens to also be my case).

The news since (or around, as you report restrictions/complications even before) 01/10/2006 is that MULTIPLE entry are not issued anymore.

- "Friendly" consulates in the western world are still issuing MULTIPLE entry in your case.

I personally received confirmation of this by email from Hull/UK on 20/10/2006.

(I am Belgian BTW. So you can surely go there as a US citizen. But several consulates in the US are likely to be as friendly as Hull).

2) How old are you? (Sorry again, I don't know anything about your story)

If you are above 50 (and have the birth certificate).

You can extend your stay in Thailand on the basis of clause 7.17 (5) of the New Police Order of 01/10/2006 (606/2006).

As simple as that. No "support" or whatever is required.

You are father and above 50: nothing else is required.

Contact SUNBELT. They process. Extension ARE granted in Bangkok.

(You or anybody concerned. Sorry Andy, I guess you are NOT above 50, he?)

[p_brownstone]

(Additionally, speaking/reading/writing Thai will gain you a lot of respect from Thais, and that could be very helpful if you find yourself in a sticky situation in the future...)

Simon

Not only that, but as I indicated in an earlier Post the reverse is true also, particularly when dealing with “officialdom” here.

If a foreigner has been in Thailand for 17 years and is unable to speak reasonable Thai any Government Official he approaches for assistance is gong to be distinctly unimpressed about how “committed” he is to living in Thailand and being a part of Thai society – and therefore even more reluctant to make a “special case” for him.

Slightly off topic but I do wonder how the OP manages to communicate with family, children and friends ......... in Roi-et!

Patrick

[papakapbaan]

[2] NOW! ALL THIS ABOVE [1] IS NOT WORTH A SINGLE KOPEK (OR A SINGLE SATANG) IF ANDY IS BELOW 50 AND THE "GOAL" IS ANNUAL EXTENSION.

To the "Get Legal" Brigade here:

I think it's HIGH time to clarify one issue.

"GET LEGAL": what does it mean in your book?

I hope you do not merely mean get a VISA??

FYI: to get a visa to Thailand is, AS THINGS STAND NOW, EASY AS PIE.

The fact of the matter is that the complicate bit is generally to EXTEND the visa.

(For 1 year at a local Immigration office)

This is what Andy reported here BTW (+ "Warnings" from Embassies that no more "back to back" visas would be issued, but no real refusal SO FAR).

TO THE "GET LEGAL" BRIGADE: IS SAY: "GET REALISTIC":

Does it really matter whether in January 2007 your are still able to "play around" with a combination of Tourist visas + Entry free visas - or whatever else you are "relying" on?

As I posted in another thread:

Ask yourself a few questions...

-How long will they keep issuing "back to back" TOURIST visas? (In SE-Asia? In the West?)/ Will they allow a combination of TOURIST visas and VOAs? "Non-stop"?

-Next. How long will they keep issuing back to back NON-IMMIGRANT visas? (In SE-Asia? In the West?)

-Next. Will they keep issuing MULTIPLE ENTRY NON-IMMIGRANT visas?

(In SE-ASIA: We already know the answer: basically: no more. But in the West? Easy? Not easy?)

-Next. How long will they keep issuing back to back MULTIPLE ENTRY NON-IMMIGRANT visas?

As evidenced above: there are many layers of "visa situations".

But I believe they mean business since 01/10/2006.

And I believe the only people who are "safe" are the ones on ANNUAL EXTENSION OF STAY.

Since 01/10/2006: GET LEGAL can only mean: BE ON ANNUAL EXTENSION OF STAY.

[papakapbaan]

[3] Now is the time for my rant!

AS THING STAND NOW, there are STILL ways for Andy (and me...) to permanently stay in Thailand DE FACTO. (cf. Post [1] above)

HOWEVER the "I'm allright Jack"/"Get legal or get out!" brigade (as the other side seems to call them here) should know:

Since 01/10/2006: There is no provision in the Thai immigration law for an ummaried Farang parent below 50 to GET LEGAL!

Period. Reallistically, to GET LEGAL (ie EXTENSION OF STAY FOR 1 YEAR ) after 01/10/2007, Andy must:

Either:

-Be above 50.

-Run a business and pay himself 50,000 a month and employ 4 Thais.

(Andy And I say "NO, THANKS." I say: Cf. New regulations here about foreign ownership).

-Get married

(Not possible in my case BTW)

So what??

Personally, I am not immediately concerned about the availability of visas.

But there is no GET LEGAL option anymore for Andy and me since 01/10/2006!

(AND, BTW, A LOT OF PEOPLE on this forum, including many in the Get Legal Brigade for sure, should wake up to the fact there is NO OPTION TO GET LEGAL FOR THEM since 01/10/2006!).

[dobbelinas]

How about just ***p on the rules and give Andy residency ?

Give the guy a break.

If he's been here for 17 years, supporting all those children, what does that

tell you about his character.

Like a million times better than most thai men (not all).

Edited January 9, 2007 by dobbelinas

[simon43]

Andy - What about an education visa? I believe that will enable you to stay in LoS, (with minimum commitment to actually attending your college course if that is what you want!).

There were a few threads re this, so do a search. Why not sign up to learn Thai AND get your visa as well??

Simon

[rainman]

My honest opinion is you should get married to the woman you've been with for the last 17 years. You're complaining that you have no security, that you can't live anymore in Thailand. Who's the one who should really complain about no security? That's right, HER. She's been living with a man for 17 years who doesn't have the will to give her a little security back but is all concerned and helpless when he suddenly can't make visa runs anymore.

You should have thought about this a long time ago and then your visa might even be grandfathered and you would maybe only need 200k-400k in the bank account here. Pretty sure you could have saved 400k in 17 years. That's only 2000 baht per month.

If you really care about her and her family, that's the way. But do it quick. If you don't care about them, well i guess its time to go somewhere else.

[tamaique]

So??? Thailand is not the only place in the world. The OP situation can happen in any country. The difference is, some countries are more humane than others. In the US, a foreigner who is supporting a US citizen can be petitioned to have right to stay. And who said that we are THAIs?

I wouldn't go there. The US isn't necessarily a good example. Quite a few Mexicans have been shot by US border land owners while trying to cross the border. I don't know if you recall the brief time a few years ago when supermarkets in the US used to sell "Mexican Killing Kits" (night vision, etc.). Could go on and on...

Thailand, after all, isn't nearly that bad. I knew a guy who overstayed his VOA for ONE YEAR in Thailand. He went to the airport, paid 20,000 Baht, was made to feel scared for a few minutes, and then sent on his way. He has since returned to Thailand on a new VOA.

[dobbelinas]

My honest opinion is you should get married to the woman you've been with for the last 17 years. You're complaining that you have no security, that you can't live anymore in Thailand. Who's the one who should really complain about no security? That's right, HER. She's been living with a man for 17 years who doesn't have the will to give her a little security back but is all concerned and helpless when he suddenly can't make visa runs anymore.

Did you miss this part ?

Richard is three years old, loves to jump and run and bonk people with balloons and swords. Richard has my chromosomes. His mother Aw divorced me so that she could go dance in a gogo bar. She's glad I am taking care of our children.

[thai_narak]

My honest opinion is you should get married to the woman you've been with for the last 17 years. You're complaining that you have no security, that you can't live anymore in Thailand. Who's the one who should really complain about no security? That's right, HER. She's been living with a man for 17 years who doesn't have the will to give her a little security back but is all concerned and helpless when he suddenly can't make visa runs anymore.

You should have thought about this a long time ago and then your visa might even be grandfathered and you would maybe only need 200k-400k in the bank account here. Pretty sure you could have saved 400k in 17 years. That's only 2000 baht per month.

If you really care about her and her family, that's the way. But do it quick. If you don't care about them, well i guess its time to go somewhere else.

Have you read the OP? Cha, the woman you're talking about, is not with him for 17 years. As I understood the first who he married (Aw) and had one child with divorced him and went back dancing in BKK. I think this is the reason why he doesn't want to marry again. Once bitten, twice shy...

[unforgiven]

[Don't worry your xwife is probably makin heaps in the gogo bar,she'll take it from here ,go home you not welcome in thailand................thanks for the time and dosh!!!!

[kasi]

Threads like this make me want to cry and go visit another part of the forum.

Closing time! N'est ce pas?

[mouse]

perhaps those that are having , or are about to have problems with obtaining the right to remain in this country to support wives and family ought to avail themselves of the services of one of the more reputable law firms that should be able to help them.

rather than banging away hopelessly at the door of an immigration officer on a power trip , let an experienced law firm advise you on how to prepare the right documentation and how to present your cases correctly and respectfully at the immigration office.

you might just find it works.

rightly or wrongly , attitude and presentation are all in this country and can change a power hungry government official into a sympathetic public servant before you can say kha pom.

I suspect that Andy does not have the fianncial resources to exercise the Lawyer, Amity Company, or Retirment Visa (he is over 50) options. As some of you seemed to have missed, his wowman of many years, is dancing in Bangkok and he has the son, but, not the cutody to go along with the son and this is what Immigration said no to. I think that I understood correctly! Again a lawyer for such an operation can cost. I would hope that he explore the sole cutody issue suggested earlier.

nobody has questioned / supplied answers for ,

who will pick up the slack when the ' Andy's ' are forced out of the country .

is there no concern for the numerous locals being supported by people in this situation ??

Kind of like when the stupid kid get kicked out of class, thus passing the honorary title on to the next smartest person. Class is getting smaller folks!

On a more general note, may I suggest to everyone who intends to make Thailand their home for the forseeable future, that they learn the Thai language! By that, I mean learn to speak Thai well, learn to read/write Thai to a reasonable degree.

It irks me that I meet many 'farang' who have lived in LoS for years, (often 10 or 20 years+), and can still only speak one or two words of Thai. What sort of commitment to the country does that show?

Learn Thai, understand (not neccessarily agree with) the culture, and you stand a far better chance of integrating with the Thai community. Make Thai friends (who can help you out in time of need) etc.

It's not difficult . . . especially if you have 17 years to do it in!

Simon

I hate to disagree! I speak Italian, German, English, some Slovenian and cannot for the life of me learn this language with a nasal drawl. Everytime I finally am able to say the word propeprly, I have to sneeze!! Part of the problem is that I am not a young boy anymore, the other part being the dificulty of the language itself.

[dobbelinas]

Even if a foreigner can speak perfect Thai, it ain't gonna buy you any freebies when

extending your visa.

At immigration only two sentences are important: krap and kop kun krap.

+ a truckload of cash in your bank account.

[thai_narak]

Understanding and speaking fluent thai will not help us getting a visa but is definitely a bonus when dealing with immigration ppl. One thing, no more lost in translation.

[chuchok]

That's up to the family, but even if there was nobody, and the kids are headed to an orphanage, it doesn't change the fact that Andy has to get off his ass and stop making excuses.

your focused on ' Andy's ' ..............

I'm asking about the consequences to numerous Thai citizens ?

the family should get off their ass and stop making excuses and relying on some 'white knight' who in 17 years hasn't got legal.

Yeah, so a couple of kids and a granny should get off their fat ar$es and not wait for dad to provide.

[papakapbaan]

[I suspect that Andy does not have the fianncial resources to exercise the Lawyer, Amity Company, or Retirment Visa (he is over 50) options. As some of you seemed to have missed, his wowman of many years, is dancing in Bangkok and he has the son, but, not the cutody to go along with the son and this is what Immigration said no to. I think that I understood correctly! Again a lawyer for such an operation can cost. I would hope that he explore the sole cutody issue suggested earlier.

OK.

Very seriously: we are looking at 115 posts and 8 pages of UNECESSARY WORRIES.

If Andy indeed is the legal father of a least one Thai child (has his name on the Thai birth certificate of his Thai child)

Andy WILL receive annual extension of stay based on clause 7.17 (5) of the New Police Order of 01/10/2006 (606/2006).

SIMPLE.

NO marriage.

NO child custody: that was for everybody (above and under 50 y. old) prior to 01/10/2006. Not required anymore.

NO support. (FYI: Support is not a requirement, is not required anywhere for extensions of stay since 01/10/2006 )

But father must be above 50.

Andy must contact SUNBELT, really. I dont think their fees will be very high for this service.

Numerous threads on this board will confirm.

Ex: http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=93446